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#1 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,694
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Tal-Elmar
This is the first draft of the chapter Tal-Elmar in the part The Black Years.
The is no Basic Text in this chapter is of course from Tal-Elmar, nonetheless and I will give source information for each part that is used. They are mostly from The Akallabêth in Sil77 and Aman and Mortal Men from HoME 10, MT, Text XI. The markings are: BY-HL-zz for Black Years, Head-Lines, marking all headlines for the chapters in this part. TE-SL-zz for Tal-Elmar, Story-Line, to document all changes that construct the main text. TE-HA-zz for Tal-Elmar, History of the Akallabêth, to document all reconstruction to the original text. I will normally not comment on these. Some conventions of my writing: Normal Text is from the text that is mentioned in the source information of each insert. Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks {example} = text that should be deleted [example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes <source example> = additions with source information example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason /example/ = outline expansion Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next. Quote:
BY-HL-15: The chapter does include 3 parts: a kind of introduction from the Akallabêth, the story of Tal-Elmar and a part giving the categorisation of Men by the Númenorians. TE-SL-01: We take up the text of the Akallabêth were we left it. But since there is a lot of text in between, I added a clarification for the reference. TE-SL-02 & TE-SL-03: The reference to Pelargir has to go, since the Númenorians in Tal-Elmar are said to establish that haven. TE-SL-04: Here we start with the story of Tal-Elmar. TE-SL-05, TE-SL-06, TE-SL-07, TE-SL-08, TE-SL-09, TE-SL-10, TE-SL-11, TE-SL-15, TE-SL-17, TE-SL-18, TE-SL-38, TE-SK-39, TE-SL-40, TE-SL-42: A footnote with comment of Christopher Tolkien removed. TE-SL-12, TE-SL-13, TE-SL-41, TE-SL-44: A comment of Christopher Tolkien removed. TE-SL-14, TE-SL-16, TE-SL-20, TE-SL-21, TE-SL-22, TE-SL-23: Christopher Tolkiens guess of what might be the meaning is the best we have. TE-SL-19: Since the sentence makes sense without what ever had JRR Tolkien in mind, we leave it simply out. TE-SL-24: The reconstruction of the end is difficult. But I think this arrangement makes most sense. TE-SL-25: JRR Tolkien speculating about his own writing has to go. TE-SL-26, TE-SL-27: To form a text I needed a bit that was not to be found. TE-SL-28: This was in part moved. TE-SL-29 to TE-SL-33: This last end of the text is so scanty that we need a lot of expansion and still are left with a fragment. If some in has a better idea of how to get a nice text, I would be happy to read it. TE-SL-34: Here I think is the right place to give the discussion about the categories of Men that the Númenoreans made. TE-SL-35 to TE-SL-37: The references to Faramir have to go, since they belong to the essay like character of the text. TE-SL-43: The footnote was used in the chapter Of the Rings of Power. TE-SL-45: This was used in the chapter Aldarion and Erendis. Respectfully Findegil |
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#2 | |||||||||
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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TE-SL-01: This is fine, but I would edit it differently:
Quote:
I also wonder if we can include the Adunaic translation of the term 'Faithful,' like so: Quote:
TE-SL-12.5: There is no marker near this, but at the place where you removed footnote #9, the sentence as Tolkien wrote it is grammatically incorrect (which is why CT marked it with a footnote.) I suggest we fix it: Quote:
TE-SL-24: I think this is fine, but it needs to be edited so that the tense agrees: Quote:
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TE-SL-27: I do not think we need this addition, since it is a pity if he knows nothing of the language either way, and I find this addition to be too much of a liberty. TE-SL-29: This is indeed a very difficult thing to make. I proposed a few minor changes to this addition (mostly tense or things to improve the flow): Quote:
TE-SL-32/33: I think this paragraph is not good to include. We cannot say at all that Tal-Elmar ever went to those places (as indeed seems impossible, since the Numenorean power never reached nearly so far inland) and these names represent Tolkien simply jotting down rapid ideas without any thoughts about the story or plot attached. Therefore, I think we should end it with: Quote:
TE-SL-35: I would just say that where you removed "in Gondor" it should be replaced with "by the Númenóreans" in order to preserve the fact that it was specific to the people of Numenor, and nota facet of, say, Elvish culture as well. TE-SL-41: I would remove the entire footnote, since we used it in Of the Rings of Power, and I see no real need to repeat it here. TE-SL-43: I would like to keep the bit about the Silvan Elves being Middle-Elves by Numenorean classification if possible, like this: Quote:
Quote:
TE-SL-46: At the very last sentence of the chapter, the term 'linga franca' is used. This is a term that references the French language and its commonality in Europe as a language to communicate across countries, and I think strikes me as too meta-commentative in its use here. Therefore I marked it with this marker and I propose changing it to 'common speech.' This has the same meaning but without the real-world jargon. Last edited by ArcusCalion; 06-06-2018 at 12:49 AM. |
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#3 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,694
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This is the nice thing about a group effort: each member looks for some different aspects, and so the result is always much bettern than everything I could have done single handed.
I agree to nearly all suggestions, and I thank you for pointing them out ArcusCalion! Only in two passages we are not fully in line: Only TE-SL-32 & TE-SL-33 I see diffrent. Yes, what we have is Tolkien thinking with the pen, but what he sets on paper does fit mostly to the tale he has told before: Tal-Elmar has got his special heritage from 'the cruels from the north'. These as the geography stands must be the Northman. And we are told that Númenóreans have formed a alliance with them. Thus the Númenórean influence is much greater than you thought. And we do not say that Tal-Elmar did visit these places with the Númenórans. With the alliance just memtioned and Tal-Elmar story of the live of his grand-mother it is highly probable that he would visit the Northman and live for a time at least with them. Thus he might easily see Rhovannion, Wilderland Anduin and the See of Rhun. The Ettenmoors are a diffrent case and might belong to an older idea of the placing of Agar. So I would agree to remove the Ettenmoors. But the rest seems fully in line with the tale, so that I do not see any good reason not to mention them. TE-SL-46: I agree to this change, but only hesitatingly. We have before used such real world jargon in linguistical sentences. But since it is here not so much a comparision with later day as simply a word used for the function of the language I agree to the change. Respectfully Findegil |
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#4 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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TE-SL-32/33: I interpreted the Cruels of the North as the Elves, but I suppose this does not work with the fact that he does not know what the Eldar are. I will then agree to the change, so long as the Ettenmoors are removed, since as you say, they do not fit the theme of the rest of the locations. However, I would make some small grammatical changes to keep it looking good:
Quote:
Last edited by ArcusCalion; 06-06-2018 at 08:39 PM. |
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#5 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,694
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That is fine for me.
Respectfully Findegil |
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#6 | |||||
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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I have a few comments:
1) When Tolkien continued the manuscript it appears he changed the name "Tal-elmar" to "Tal-Elmar". I propose we change it throughout the chapter for consistency, since this seems to be a later idea. 2) There is one instance right before TE-SL-24 where the tense needs to be changed for agreement: Quote:
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#7 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,694
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1) {Tal-elmar}[Tal-Elmar]: Agreed. I added this to the General Changes.
2) Agreed. 3) I agree to the re-arrangement. But at the beginning of TE-SL-01 we have to remove the ‘Then’ because in this agrangment we have removed it reference. Respectfully Findegil |
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#8 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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1) Agreed.
2) Agreed 3) I actually do not see the need to move these sections around. I can see wanting to move TE-SL-29 in between TE-SL-03 and 04 to provide an immediate intro to the story, but the section about the MIddle Men uses the terms 'Faithful' and 'King's Men' and describes Ar-Adunakhor and the linguistic conflicts that arose in Numenor, so to place it before we are told of that in the section under TE-SL-01 does not make sense for me. It fits much better at the end where Fin had it originally. I see no real reason to rearrange it. Last edited by ArcusCalion; 12-22-2018 at 11:53 PM. |
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#9 |
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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3) OK, I don't have an extremely strong opinion either way as to whether the discussion about the kinds of men and linguistic discussions should come before and after the story of Tal-Elmar. I suppose you're probably right, Arcus, placing these materials after the story probably works better. But I do think the section which starts "This is a tale..." and ending with "...chief haven of the Faithful Númenoreans." should be moved right before TE-SL-04.
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#10 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,694
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3) I have as well no strong opinion on the arangement. So we will take ArcusCalions suggestion.
Respectfully Findegil |
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#11 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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I am fine with that gandalf.
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