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Old 08-07-2011, 09:31 PM   #81
Galadriel55
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Old 01-25-2012, 03:37 AM   #82
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I was quite pleased to discover your article Gwaihir. After my most recent reading of the Silmarillion, I reached a similar conclusion. I also enjoyed the fact that as I was reading most of the arguments presented against your theory that they were already addressed by yourself, Findegil, Palrun-Enda, and others in much the same counter-points I would have raised. Trumpkin Mahalul, I also quite enjoyed your dwarvish in-universe account.

Some have already made up their minds on the issue of the Arkenstone being the Earth-Silmaril and the issue won't be resolved by anything less than the Professor himself rising from the dead and settling the matter, but I would point out that the One Ring finding its way to the Bagginses rested with a who series of improbabilities. The events in Tolkien's works are based around numerous, mysterious coincidences, happenstances, and strange chances. If some of us, choose to believe in one more, I don't see what harm is done.



In any case, the point of the Silmarils being used against the dragons inspired a theory of my own. I don't believe that the Jewel is as passive in the downfall of smaug as previously speculated. In fact, it is tied in with chief point that has not been properly addressed: If the Arkenstone is a Silmaril, why did it not burn Thorin and Smaug?

Be warned: if Hobbitses finding rings of doom, age old weapons brought forth to slay fire and shadows once more, and ancient sunken jewels resurfacing seems far-fetched, then this theory is not for you.

First off, I do not believe this particularly low opinion of Thorin Oaken-Shield is warranted. Thorin may be arrogant, possessive and vengeful, but I hardly believe that puts him on par with the Sons of Feanor. The fell elves had killed their kin on not one, but three separate occasions. Thorin is flawed, but certainly not more so than dwarves who murdered Thingol for the Silmaril he possessed. In fact King Greymantle, himself displayed the same traits as Thorin, yet no indication that he, nor his dwarven assailants were unable to abide touching the stone. Thorin did threaten to throw Bilbo to the rocks in a fit of rage. In the end, he proved himself to be noble in spirit, despite his flawed nature.

What of Smaug? Dwaves aside surely the golden, impenetrable dragon as a servant of Morgoth would suffer just as Carcharoth, who was driven mad by pain when he consumed a Silmaril. Why did the Arkenstone not burn him if it is truly one of the Jewels of Feanor?

Well... who's to say it didn't?

Perhaps it did burn, all those long years as it lay atop Smaug's bed of gold and jewels, beneath the old worm as he slumbered. Yet it did not become encrusted in the dragons belly as were other gems and pieces of gold. Perhaps it even burned a hole in that armor, say a patch in the hollow of his left breast.

After all, which is more likely: That Smaug naturally grew with a discernible weakness in his defeated, or that his armor was damaged by an outside force. Thus, if the Arkenstone was in fact a Silmaril it might have brought about Smaug the Golden's defeat, even as Earendil and Jewel of air brought about the end of Ancalagon the Black.



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Last edited by Landroval; 01-25-2012 at 07:12 PM. Reason: Parts of original post caused offense
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Old 01-25-2012, 04:32 AM   #83
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Firstly– welcome to the Downs, Landroval!

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Originally Posted by Landroval
I realize that those who have already closed their minds to the possibility of the Arkenstone being the Earth-Silmaril won't be be convinced by anything less than the Professor himself rising from the dead and settling the matter.
Nah, pretty sure we'd settle for a bit of, you know, actual evidence n' stuff. Or– who knows– just a scenario that didn't have multiple holes in it. Which, you know, hasn't been forthcoming thus far.

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Originally Posted by Landroval
I would point out that the One Ring finding its way to the Bagginses rested with a who series of improbabilities. The events in Tolkien's works are based around numerous, mysterious coincidences, happenstances, and strange chances. If some of us, choose to believe in one more, I don't see what harm is done to the naysayers.
None– but some of us might just get a bit irritated at being characterised as "those with closed minds", mightn't we?
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Old 01-25-2012, 04:51 AM   #84
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The thing is, Landroval– you can indeed just choose to believe it's a Silmaril, regardless– I mean, who's stopping you? However, I see you're *also* trying to make an actual "for" case in the same post– I don't think you can have it both ways, can you?
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Old 01-25-2012, 06:44 AM   #85
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Let me also welcome you to the Downs, Landroval.

I still think this theory is incorrect. There's been so much said of this already, but let's look at the descriptions of the Silmarils and the Arkenstone.

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Like the crystal of diamonds [a Silmaril] appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.
The Silmarillion Of the Simarils (emphasis mine)

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The great jewel shone before [Bilbo's] feet of its own inner light, and yet, cut and fashioned by the dwarves, who had dug it from the heart of the mountain long ago, it took all light that fell upon it, and changed it into ten thousand sparks of white radiance shot with glints of the rainbow.
The Hobbit Not At Home (emphasis mine)

Note that the Silmarils could not been "marred". I would think "marring" would be read for any sort of alteration to the gem. Since the Dwarves did accomplish that with the Arkenstone, it cannot be a Silmaril.
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Old 01-25-2012, 06:20 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Landroval View Post
What of Smaug? Dwaves aside surely the golden, impenetrable dragon as a servant of Morgoth would suffer just as Carcharoth, who was driven mad by pain when he consumed a Silmaril. Why did the Arkenstone not burn him if it is truly one of the Jewels of Feanor?

Well... who's to say it didn't?

Perhaps it did burn, all those long years as it lay atop Smaug's bed of gold and jewels, beneath the old worm as he slumbered. Yet it did not become encrusted in the dragons belly as were other gems and pieces of gold. Perhaps it even burned a hole in that armor, say a patch in the hollow of his left breast.

After all, which is more likely: That Smaug naturally grew with a discernible weakness in his defeated, or that his armor was damaged by an outside force. Thus, if the Arkenstone was in fact a Silmaril it might have brought about Smaug the Golden's defeat, even as Earendil and Jewel of air brought about the end of Ancalagon the Black.
That weakness in Smaug's armor always annoyed me, but then again he did need a weakness in order to get killed.

My problem with the theory presented is that never before have I encountered evidence of the Silmarils "gem melting potential". If it burned in such a manner, then surely it would also melt gold and gems underneath it and eventually end up in the bottom of Smaug's treasure pile? Or have I misunderstood your theory?

Also it is true that other pieces of gems and gold became encrusted, where as the Arkenstone didn't. However I am quite sure that the vast majority of gems and gold did not become encrusted, like the cup that Bilbo took. The point is that by not becoming encrusted, the Arkenstone is actually doing exactly what the average piece of jewellery would do in such a situation.
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Old 01-25-2012, 06:57 PM   #87
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I realize that those who have already closed their minds to the possibility of the Arkenstone being the Earth-Silmaril won't be be convinced by anything less than the Professor himself rising from the dead and settling the matter. I would point out that the One Ring finding its way to the Bagginses rested with a who series of improbabilities. The events in Tolkien's works are based around numerous, mysterious coincidences, happenstances, and strange chances. If some of us, choose to believe in one more, I don't see what harm is done to the naysayers...
Your entire post is littered with theories, suppositions, what ifs and maybes that are not borne out in the story itself, much like the illogical hypotheses of other proponents of the faulty Arkenstone=Silmaril argument. When referring to Tolkien's works as "based around numerous, mysterious coincidences, happenstances, and strange chances," I would agree; however, there is an inner consistency and logic even in Tolkien's happenstance approach. There are no ends that fit the means in supposing the Arkenstone is a Silmaril, no overarching storyline that connects the original Silmarillion story to The Hobbit in that sense. Small coincidences collect into greater eucatastrophes in Tolkien's storyline, whereas the Arkenstone reaches a dead end on the breast of a deceased Dwarf, Thorin.

Does it make sense that a Dwarf ends up with a Silmaril as part of a burial reliquary? Taking the obvious tack of adding in storylines that were not in The Hobbit, wouldn't a Sindarin Elf like Thranduil (only identified as ElvenKing in TH) recognize and immediately demand the Arkenstone/Silmaril as a sacred Elvish gem stolen by the Dwarves from Menegroth after they murdered Thranduil's sovereign Lord, King Thingol? Wouldn't this, in fact, cause a second war between Elves and Dwarves?

Also, Gandalf (otherwise known elsewhere as Olorin the Maia) had spent the entire space of time prior to the 3rd Age in Valinor. Knowledgeable as he was of all things Elvish, he wouldn't immediately recognize a Silmaril and know its history and importance?

Are you not straining the bounds of incredulity to the point of farcical fan-fiction nonsense?
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Old 01-25-2012, 07:04 PM   #88
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Thanks for the welcome.

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None– but some of us might just get a bit irritated at being characterised as "those with closed minds", mightn't we?
Yes, poor choice of phrasing on my part, and bad foot to get off on in a first post. I suppose that's what happens when one is posting when one should be sleeping. I'll edit in the hope of avoiding further offense. Please accept my apologies, in any case.



I don't believe I was trying to have my cake and eat it to, was merely postulating, for the sake of argument, that if the Arkenstone was a Silmaril, it might have then directly led to Smaug's downfall by providing a weakness in his defenses.

The One Ring also could not be unmade "by any craft we here possess," yet could be destroyed in the fires from which it was made. That being the case, I don't see why Trumpkin Mahalel's point that time in the fires of the world's mantel would not be allow a Silmaril to be marred during the period where it was cooling down once more.
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Old 01-25-2012, 07:24 PM   #89
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That weakness in Smaug's armor always annoyed me, but then again he did need a weakness in order to get killed.

My problem with the theory presented is that never before have I encountered evidence of the Silmarils "gem melting potential". If it burned in such a manner, then surely it would also melt gold and gems underneath it and eventually end up in the bottom of Smaug's treasure pile? Or have I misunderstood your theory?

Also it is true that other pieces of gems and gold became encrusted, where as the Arkenstone didn't. However I am quite sure that the vast majority of gems and gold did not become encrusted, like the cup that Bilbo took. The point is that by not becoming encrusted, the Arkenstone is actually doing exactly what the average piece of jewellery would do in such a situation.
Yes, I may not have explained the idea probably. Basically, the Silmarils as hallowed items burn those of evil spirit who touch them. Morgoth was able to wear them in a crown with no ill effect to the crown itself, but when he touched them his hands were burned black. Others have also been be burned by them such as the wolf Carcharoth and the Sons of Feanor. Others were not, such as King Thingol, who might be seen as just as arrogant and possessive as Thorin.

Therefore the Arkenstone (providing its a Silmaril) could burn Smaug, as he was one of Morgoth's creations but would not be melting the gold beneath.


The idea of a Silmaril being able to be reshaped if it was exposed to the mantel for long enough was a separate issue and not related to the idea of burning a hole in Smaug's armor.

I hope that clarifies my point, and doesn't make it more confusing.



Side note, I don't believe the cup that Bilbo took as on top of the hoard, seeing as Smaug was in the chamber at the time.


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Old 01-25-2012, 08:04 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Morthoron View Post
Does it make sense that a Dwarf ends up with a Silmaril as part of a burial reliquary? Taking the obvious tack of adding in storylines that were not in The Hobbit, wouldn't a Sindarin Elf like Thranduil (only identified as ElvenKing in TH) recognize and immediately demand the Arkenstone/Silmaril as a sacred Elvish gem stolen by the Dwarves from Menegroth after they murdered Thranduil's sovereign Lord, King Thingol? Wouldn't this, in fact, cause a second war between Elves and Dwarves?

Also, Gandalf (otherwise known elsewhere as Olorin the Maia) had spent the entire space of time prior to the 3rd Age in Valinor. Knowledgeable as he was of all things Elvish, he wouldn't immediately recognize a Silmaril and know its history and importance?
There are several reasons why Thranduil might not not have recognized a Silmaril. Thingol was very possessive of the Jewel and may not have allowed others to study it at great length. Thranduil and his father Oropher may not have dwelt in Menegroth aside from occasional visits. Thranduil might even have believed, as some here, that the lost Silmarils could not be recovered, and certainly wouldn't believe one might resurface in the east.

Orcrist, while certainly not of the same value as a Silmaril, was an ancient Elvish weapon from the fall of Gondolin, yet the Elvenking allowed it be buried with Thorin.

If Gandalf did recognize it as such and knew that by sharing that knowledge he would risk a new war between Elves and Dwarves over the Jewel, what motive would he have to reveal this knowledge?

Out of curiosity, Morthoron, PPC member?
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Old 01-25-2012, 09:01 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Landroval
Basically, the Silmarils as hallowed items burn those of evil spirit who touch them. Morgoth was able to wear them in a crown with no ill effect to the crown itself, but when he touched them his hands were burned black. Others have also been be burned by them such as the wolf Carcharoth and the Sons of Feanor. Others were not, such as King Thingol, who might be seen as just as arrogant and possessive as Thorin.
I think there are some problems with this assumption. The Silmarili burn flesh, that's true, but that does not mean that they give off heat such as would melt everything around them. To explain this, let me use an analogy - a wound burns, even though the substance that it's in (air, water, alcohol, medicine of some sort, etc) is not hot and not terribly corrosive. Moreover, Thingol wore the Silmaril on his chest when he spoke haughtily with the Dwarves. That was no good deed, but the Silmaril didn't burn through the Nauglamir.*

That also brings me to my next point. I wouldn't say that touching the Silmarils is denied only to evil spirits. I would change that to people a) with evil intentions, and/or b) who have no right to the Silmarili. Once again using the example of Thingol, he had nothing nice in mind when he was with the Dwarves, but he had a claim to the Silmaril, through Beren.



In support of this theory, is support it be called, I'll say this. When The Hobbit was written, JRRT was thinking of his First Age mythology. I believe TH was originally supposed to happen in Beleriand, and if you look at the geography it makes sense. JRRT couldn't publish The Silmarillion, so he published a book "about" The Silmarillion. TheArkenstone was probably modeled on a Silmaril - so it is the fourth of the kind, if you really want to think this way. (Maybe not a Silmaril, but something very similar, since we know that no one could replicate them) But still - I don't believe it's a Silmaril by their true definition; it's not one of Feanor's three.
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Old 01-25-2012, 10:01 PM   #92
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There are several reasons why Thranduil might not not have recognized a Silmaril. Thingol was very possessive of the Jewel and may not have allowed others to study it at great length. Thranduil and his father Oropher may not have dwelt in Menegroth aside from occasional visits. Thranduil might even have believed, as some here, that the lost Silmarils could not be recovered, and certainly wouldn't believe one might resurface in the east.
Again, this is conjecture which is not part of the story. For such a far-fetched theory as you present, there must be something more tangible than "might not", "may not", "may not" and "might". Besides, Dior, son of Beren and Luthien, wore the Silmaril openly in Doriath.

You completely ignore that the Silmaril would have to travel hundreds of miles in magma in the earth's mantle, beneath a massive mountain range with no purported volcanic activity, and then settle beneath Erebor sometime in the late 1st Age (again, no evident volcanic activity there either). It then becomes encased in rock (in a few thousand years), and then the dwarves cut facets into it:

Quote:
The great jewel shone before his feet of its own inner light, and yet, cut and fashioned by the dwarves...
Which directly contradicts the description of the Silmarils:

Quote:
Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.
Daft.

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Orcrist, while certainly not of the same value as a Silmaril, was an ancient Elvish weapon from the fall of Gondolin, yet the Elvenking allowed it be buried with Thorin.
Orcrist was Noldorin, from Gondolin. It played no part in the history of the Sindar (and the Sindar had little liking for the Noldor, in any case). The Silmaril and the Dwarves murdering Thingol was a pivotal piece of history for the Sindar, and although there is not a direct reference to the episode of the sacking of Menegroth, there is a decided dislike between Elves and Dwarves in The Hobbit. If Thranduil had the slightest inkling that this jewel was the Silmaril, given his temperment, he would have acted on his belief. But as I emphasize, these are elements that are not part of Tolkien's writing of The Hobbit. The Arkenstone was not a Silmaril; if anything, it was a Similar.

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If Gandalf did recognize it as such and knew that by sharing that knowledge he would risk a new war between Elves and Dwarves over the Jewel, what motive would he have to reveal this knowledge?
One would think that the retrieval of such an item would be important for when Olorin would return to Valinor. A Silmaril carries the light of the bliss of Valinor. A Silmaril blazes on the brow of Eärendel as he traverses the sky in Vingilótë. This is not something you leave with a dead, and in the grand scheme of things relatively unimportant, Dwarf.

This is particularly true since Mandos prophesied that the world will be changed and the Valar will recover the Silmarils. A Maia under the direction of Manwe would be derelict in his duty to leave such a sacred relic behind. It is the most important item of the entire 1st Age of Arda, and utterly integral in healing the world at the end of time, when Feanor surrenders the Silmarils to Yavanna and she breaks them open and revives the Two Trees. But, again, none of this has anything whatsoever to do with The Hobbit. Which is the point, I suppose.

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Out of curiosity, Morthoron, PPC member?
I have no idea what you are referring to.
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Old 01-26-2012, 05:43 AM   #93
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Okay there no question that this is only and can only be a 'it could be possible' theory.
That means there is no hard evidence for it in the texts and some evidences against it which must circumvented with possible explainations to make the theory work.

But that said, I at least find it a bit unfair if the supporters are demanded not to raise 'what if' arguments but the contradicter do so as freely as they will.

To discuss what Thranduil or Gandalf would have done recognising a Silmaril is no better counter argument then a possible theory of how the Silmarill could be transported from the broken Beleriand to Erebor is an supporting argument. Either both are allowed in the discussion or both are out. Only if both are out, discussions like this are dead from the start, which would be a shame (in my oppinion at least).

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P.S.: If you like, please ignore this post, since it seems I am supporting a 'illogical hypotheses' anyway.
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Old 01-26-2012, 08:22 AM   #94
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But that said, I at least find it a bit unfair if the supporters are demanded not to raise 'what if' arguments but the contradicter do so as freely as they will.
I've added a caveat to my entire rebuttal: "But, again, none of this has anything whatsoever to do with The Hobbit. Which is the point, I suppose." Importing ideas from the Silmarillion to fit in the context of The Hobbit is fraught with peril. There are elements that Tolkien used from his larger mythos in the story, but these are consistent with his then unpublished work and clearly labeled (the Gondolin swords, for instance are indeed directly referred to in an applicable manner).

However, Tolkien does not call the gem of the Dwarves a "Silmaril", which is clearly of Elvish design and lineage, but he calls it the "Arkenstone" (Old English earcanstān, Old Norse jarknasteinn, for "precious stone"). The Arkenstone is derived from Old English poetry, and is in keeping with Tolkien's use of pre-existing ancient literature in the story's naming conventions (just as "Gandalf" and all the Dwarves' names are derived from the Voluspa). The Arkenstone shares a luminescence with the Silmaril, but unlike the Silmaril, it has been faceted and shaped, whereas the Silmaril cannot be marred or changed. The Silmaril is referred to as a "holy jewel" and obviously affects those who see and touch it (to the point where Eärendel is allowed admittance to the Blessed Realm merely by wearing one). The Arkenstone is pretty, but it has no profound effect on those who are near it. Bard holds it, Bilbo holds it, Thorin holds it. No big deal.

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Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
To discuss what Thranduil or Gandalf would have done recognising a Silmaril is no better counter argument then a possible theory of how the Silmarill could be transported from the broken Beleriand to Erebor is an supporting argument. Either both are allowed in the discussion or both are out. Only if both are out, discussions like this are dead from the start, which would be a shame (in my oppinion at least).
In a farcical debate, shouldn't one rebut nonsense with nonsense? But even being nonsensical, some logic should apply. Is it reasonable that Gandalf, a Maia who had seen the Two Trees and had been in Valinor since its inception would know what a Silmaril looked like? Is it logical that Thranduil, the ElvenKing, who patterned his underground manse to replicate Menegroth, would be aware of a Silmaril when he saw it? Or is it logical that a "Silmarill could be transported from the broken Beleriand to Erebor", when Beleriand broke off at a point west of the Ered Luin Mountains (Lindon), so that the Silmaril would have to traverse under the Ered Luin, the Misty Mountains, the Anduin River, and somehow settle under Erebor, then gain an encrustation of rock in a few thousand years? Would rock even adhere to a Silmaril, or would it remain inviolate and unchanged?

There is nonsense, and then there is Nonsense.
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Old 01-26-2012, 12:43 PM   #95
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The Eye One must also consider...

While the Arkenstone was migrating under the Misty Mountain, there would be some chance it would have had to pass through the Balrog's wings. As there is no explicit mention of a hole in the Balrog's wings, this makes the theory less probable.
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Old 01-26-2012, 01:55 PM   #96
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While the Arkenstone was migrating under the Misty Mountain, there would be some chance it would have had to pass through the Balrog's wings. As there is no explicit mention of a hole in the Balrog's wings, this makes the theory less probable.
Do you think the Silmaril's migration was annual? Like the albatross? You also didn't take into account that, perhaps, the Balrog was on a skiing trip to Mount Gundabad at that point in time. Maybe Balrogs liked to ski. It could be a possibility. Tolkien never said Balrogs didn't ski. Or luge. Or take up needlepoint in their old age. I always think of Balrogs in tutus and pointe shoes doing ballet manuevers when I hear The Rite of Spring by Stravinsky. I'm sorry, I seem to be wandering. Random even.
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Old 01-26-2012, 06:19 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Morthoron View Post
A Maia under the direction of Manwe would be derelict in his duty to leave such a sacred relic behind.
I don't think that follows.
From the published Sil, we have a Maia (Fionwe) permitting TWO Silmarils (that had actually been under his control) to be carried off when all he had to do to keep them was permit the armed murders who had stolen them to be slain rather than escape. Clearly, there are other things the Valar considered more important than recovery of the Silmarils.

Also, throughout the history of the West (and LOTR) great value is placed upon subordinating ones (even valid) desires to the wishes of rightful owners of relics.

Frodo notes, in the UT essay on Erebor, that not only was Gandalf not permitted to force Bilbo (or Frodo) to undertake the quest (or to take the ring himself) to destroy it - he was not even permitted to TRY.

The Arkenstone was already seen as the rightful property of the Dwarves (except for Bilbo's claim to take it as his "rightful" payment for coming on the quest). Even if it "were" a Silmaril (which I don't believe), Gandalf wouldn't have popped in and said "The Sil's are the rightful property of the Valar" (they never were in the first place) "so I'm going to take this from you and deliver it". Fate (Providence, if you wish) had already placed the Arkenstone where it was, and the Dwarves had unearthed and shaped it on their own. The Valar would have respected that.

But, again, if it is NOT a Sil (as I believe) then all arguments about reclaiming it for Valinor are moot.

Indeed, the prophecy is that, at the end, when the Sils are finally brought back together, they will be delivered to Feanor (coming finally from Mandos) and he, as the rightful owner, will break them so that Yavanna may, with their light, rekindle the Two Trees.

Until Feanor reaches that point of growth and humility (and maturity) it's not really all that important or crucial whether the Silmarils are kept safe (a) in the Sea-depths and Fires-of-the-earth; or (b) in a vault in Manwe's house in Valinor (or even, for that matter, on Thorin's breast in his grave in Erebor). No one can destroy them - No one without the right to hold can touch them without great pain/anguish - And if someone "did" find one and try to claim it, the results would like constitute their own punishment for the presumption).

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Old 01-26-2012, 07:11 PM   #98
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Here's a question for you to mull over.

The Silmarili hold the fate of Arda. What significance would that give to your cases?



Personally, for me such an object belongs deep in the ground. In the ground, not on a dead Dwarve's chest under a mountail. Deep, deep, deep in the earth. It has to be there, and stay there, until Arda will be remade. From my POV, the Silmarils cannot remove themselves from their "proper" places - sky, sea, and earth/fire, the elements often associated with life and fate. You can't take one out of the ground. It's impossible. It won't let you do it. The Silmarilli aren't just dead stones - they have a will and power of their own. They would not allow themselves to be removed from their "homes".
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Old 01-26-2012, 07:42 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
But that said, I at least find it a bit unfair if the supporters are demanded not to raise 'what if' arguments but the contradicter do so as freely as they will.
I feel that's a bit of an exaggeration, Findegil– you seem to be referring to this exchange:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morthoron
Quote:
Originally Posted by Landroval
If Gandalf did recognize it as such and knew that by sharing that knowledge he would risk a new war between Elves and Dwarves over the Jewel, what motive would he have to reveal this knowledge?
One would think that the retrieval of such an item would be important for when Olorin would return to Valinor... etc.
In this particular case, Landroval had asked a question that could *only* be answered in hypothetical terms.

For the rest, I hardly think you can say that the "anti" camp have been raising "what if" arguments "as freely as they will". The problem, anyway, is not simply that the "for" people put forward "what if" cases, but that that's basically *all* they put forward. Further, many of these cases, just taken individually, have serious issues regards logic and plausibility. I don't see what's wrong with pointing this out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
P.S.: If you like, please ignore this post, since it seems I am supporting a 'illogical hypotheses' anyway.
I think it is illogical, yes. Please don't take that as a personal insult, Findegil. (I mean, if you are taking that way, that is.)
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Old 01-26-2012, 08:42 PM   #100
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I will only add the lines Tolkien wrote after Maedhros tossed his Silmaril (and himself) into a chasm of fire, and Maglor threw his Silmaril into the sea:

Quote:
And thus it came to pass that the Silmarils found their long homes: one in the airs of heaven, and one in the fires of the heart of the world, and one in the deep waters.
There is a finality there that precludes long distance gem-migrating, Dwarf-delving, jewellers-faceting, dragon-hording, Hobbit-thieving, and funerary-betokening.

The Silmarils found their long homes. As eloquent an end as one could ask for.
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Old 01-26-2012, 08:52 PM   #101
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For me the matter is akin to saying Elvis Presley is alive and working at a Dairy Queen in New Jersey.

It's theoretically possible in a faint way, but it sure ain't very likely.

I agree that the clear inference in The Silmarillion is that the Silmarils would not be retrieved until the End.
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Old 01-26-2012, 09:02 PM   #102
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The Silmarils found their long homes. As eloquent an end as one could ask for.
Right. And as I noted earlier: 'John Rateliff notes the sense of finality (that the Silmarils were lost) in the 1926 Sketch of the Mythology and various versions of the 1930 Quenta Noldorinwa...' but notes: 'Despite the sense of finality in the passages just quoted, Tolkien had in fact changed his mind four times in the previous fifteen years about the holy jewel's fate...' J. Rateliff


To which I responded: I think that's a rather notable 'despite,' because the Sketch and the 1930 Qenta are still relatively close in date to the writing of The Hobbit.

Anyway I agree: this finality is fitting, this is what Tolkien landed on, but yet some seem to want it to be otherwise, as even Rateliff seems to want to connect these things.

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Old 01-26-2012, 09:05 PM   #103
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The Arkenstone was already seen as the rightful property of the Dwarves (except for Bilbo's claim to take it as his "rightful" payment for coming on the quest). Even if it "were" a Silmaril (which I don't believe), Gandalf wouldn't have popped in and said "The Sil's are the rightful property of the Valar" (they never were in the first place) "so I'm going to take this from you and deliver it". Fate (Providence, if you wish) had already placed the Arkenstone where it was, and the Dwarves had unearthed and shaped it on their own. The Valar would have respected that.
While the Silmarils weren't the responsibility of Gandalf or any of the Istari, I don't think it likely Gandalf would have allowed one to remain at Erebor.
Look at all the mischief they caused in the First Age. They seem to have engendered a lustful desire to possess them almost on the level of the One. Even old Elwë couldn't resist the lure.
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Old 01-27-2012, 06:25 AM   #104
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While the Silmarils weren't the responsibility of Gandalf or any of the Istari, I don't think it likely Gandalf would have allowed one to remain at Erebor.
Look at all the mischief they caused in the First Age. They seem to have engendered a lustful desire to possess them almost on the level of the One. Even old Elwë couldn't resist the lure.
But then if he tried to take it - if it was a Silmaril - imagine the consequences. I don't think this argument works against the Silmaril case, because, personally, I think Gandalf decided that a tomb and a secret were better for a Silmaril than:

-everyone knowing what it is
-even if not, suspicion from those involved in the story
-where would he then place it? Carry it around with him?
-how long before Sauron gets it, or at least news of it, and figures out it's a Silmaril?
-another war among Dwarves and Elves and Men
-No sense of finality to TH (no, this one's purely literary)


But that same note of finality has to keep the Silmarils where they belong: air/sky, water/sea, and fire/earth. Not involving themselves in politics of warring Dwarves and Elves.
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Old 01-28-2012, 04:22 AM   #105
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But that same note of finality has to keep the Silmarils where they belong: air/sky, water/sea, and fire/earth. Not involving themselves in politics of warring Dwarves and Elves.
I don't hold it to mean much of anything, but do note two of the last options considered for handling the One Ring. One might take it on a ship, head out to sea, and cast it into the deeps, or one might toss it into a volcano.
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Old 08-26-2013, 03:24 AM   #106
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(This is actually my first post ever on this forum, oeh, exciting!)

During the past few days, I've been reading The Hobbit and immediately, the reference to the Silmarilis hit me, when reading Bilbo's description of the Arkenstone in Smaug's lair.

At first, I was inclined to believe it was indeed one of two lost Silmarils, but after thinking about it a while, it just doesn't fit with me. I don't truly like the idea of it.

First, I had this feeling the Silmarils should have a more, eh... grand role to play in the Ages after Melkor's defeat and the Fall of Thangorodrim. Don't get me wrong, I think Erebor's fate is important, but I don't think Tolkien would have let the Dwarves or Erebor find one of three most important jewels in the history of Arda. (Especially when you consider the rather nasty business between the Dwarves and Thingol.)

Plus, like some other people noted before, I don't think Tolkien would let the Silmaril be buried with Thorin. Again, this doesn't fit nicely to me.

But, alas, these first arguments are my pure opinion. I love to see Holy Jewels in Holy Places or deep in the fundaments of Arda, not in a Dwarf's resting place.

But to get more theoretical:

I always thought the Silmarils burned those who wanted to touch them with Bad Intentions (so, not bringing them back to Valinor).

Morgoth, the most powerful of the Ainur, suffered from immense pains whenever he tried to touch them. Of course, Thorin isn't as dark & evil as Morgoth, but he's a mere Dwarf, when Morgoth's a very powerful ex-Vala.

The sons of Fëanor, Maedhros & Maglor, suffered, too. They also couldn't touch the gems.

So, I ask you, dear discussion partners, how could Bilbo touch the Arkenstone, when considering it is a Silmaril? How could the Dwarves (eg. Thorin) of Erebor have touched it?

How was Smaug not hurt by it? I don't have my copy of the Sil right now, but I do remember Silmarils haven't got soothing effects on dragons.

The gems are hallowed by Varda, I don't think that sort of enchantment wears off after spending some time in Arda and then being spewn out by a vulcano. That sort of magic is permanent, just like Valar in themselves are. Just like the Two Trees should have been, if Melkor hadn't destroyed them.

And then, if we choose to ignore the rather tedious touching-part, wouldn't it be kind of... weird of Gandalf in the first place to just let the Arkenstone be buried next to Thorin, if he knew it to be one of the Holy Gems? I know the Valar can't do anything with two of the three Sils, they need all three of them, but still, I think it rather obvious that they would've wanted the gem to be secured in Aman, instead of a Dwarf's grave.

Especially because Sauron is establishing his Dark Power once more in Middle-Earth. Manwë is very much aware of that; he sent the Istari to protect the peoples of ME against Sauron in the first place.

And if Sauron suddenly realized that Erebor holds a Silmaril, one of the gems that lead to the downfall of his Master before him, that the Valar crave for, I think he would've done everything in his power to steal it from Thorin's grave. I don't even want to think about what Sauron would've been capable of, if he owned a Silmaril.

Gandalf knows this all, so, to me, it would be, bluntly put, idiotic to leave such a power in Erebor, no matter what.

Plus, there is another person present who knows what a Silmaril looks like: Thranduil. I doubt the elf-king of the Woodland Realm would appreciate the knowledge of one of the Sils being buried with a Dwarf, Thorin Oakenshield of all people.

So, next to gut-feeling, I don't agree with the notion of the Arkenstone being one of the mighty Silmarils.

(I hope I was a bit useful.)
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Old 09-05-2013, 12:26 AM   #107
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Good points Sofie, welcome to the Downs.
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Old 09-05-2013, 09:16 AM   #108
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Welcome to the Downs, Sofie!

Quibbling for quibbling sake here: the deal with the Silmarils isn’t precisely that they burn "those who wanted to touch them with Bad Intentions (so, not bringing them back to Valinor)”; neither does it have anything to do with how powerful someone is– it’s this:

“no mortal flesh, nor hands unclean, nor anything of evil will might touch them, but it was scorched and withered,"

That is, the reason this “Arkensil" should have burned Bilbo and Thorin is simply that they’re both mortal. (It should, however, indeed have burned Smaug on moral grounds.)
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Old 09-01-2014, 10:27 AM   #109
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Let me first say that ever since I found and subsequently devoured every word a 1st edition copy of The Silmarillion in a box of old books in our basement as a 15 year old, I have longed to be able to converse about the intricacies and mysteries of Middle-earth history with someone without them looking at me like I was crazy. So I'm glad I found this site.

As for the Arkenstone=Silmaril debate, here are some of my thoughts on the theories put forth in this thread:

- The Lonely Mountain being a volcano - Many people have claimed at volcanos can't be conical with a pointy peak. This is not true at all. There are three types of volcanos, Cinder Cones, Composite Volcanos, and Shield Volcanos. The make up an appearance of these are quite different from each other based entirely on the type of eruptions that form them. Shield volcanos are not conical at all and are formed entirely by continuous lava seepage and cooling (think parts of Hawaii). There is very little pressure release in this type of volcanic eruption due to the proximity of the magma chambers to the earths surface, therefore there isn't very much ash or particulates released into the atmosphere. But the other two types, Cinder Cones and Composite volcanos, are characterized by violent eruptions due to the pressure and magma having to breaking through dense rock covering the magma chambers. This causes lots of particulate and ash to be flung into the atmosphere and settle along the slopes. Over many eruptions and coupled with lava flows, this causes a very conical mountain to rise. Then, as the volcano goes dormant, the ash and particulate weather faster that the solid, cooled magma lining the central vent, giving the appearance of a chimney at the top. So it is very much is possible for the Lonely Mountain to be a volcano.

-Gems can't form in volcanos- plenty of crystallization forms in magma chambers and is then pushed to the surface in eruptions. Some examples are diamonds and obsidian. Furthermore, there are enough heat and pressure in there that many metals such as gold and silver can be refined. Who knows, maybe even mithril .

My overall thinking after spending the better part of the past two evenings reading through all these theories and looking back at the books is that I am almost certain the Arkenstone as it stands in the Hobbit is not a Silmaril. Too many characters would have recognized it as such. Galadriel (Fëanors niece), Gandalf and Thranduil to name a few. Galadriel may have been content to leave it be considering her experience with the pain it caused. I doubt Gandalf would try to take it seeing as he generally takes a hands off approach when it comes to influencing the destiny of middle earth, preferring to assist and observe rather than take direct action himself. Thranduil's reaction could range anywhere from strong desire (he may not have seen it in the past, but would surely know what a Silmaril should look like) to outright lust to get from the dwarves. Certainly though, if it was a Silmaril, it wouldn't be regarded with the seeming apathy that it is from these three characters.

However, I have an inkling that had JRRT been given the opportunity to solidify, refine and publish his own version of the Silmarillion, the Arkenstone would have become a Silmaril. The Hobbit was published when JRRT was still formulating his Silmarillion mythos and as such he probably didn't have the Silmarils' qualities or fates set in stone (pun not necessarily intended). So the Arkenstone and the Silamarils could have grown out of the same place in his mind. I think had he been given more time to really distill his world into a cohesive canon, I have no doubt that is where the Arkenstone was heading.

But, as of now, let me introduce my own theory on the origin of the Arkenstone:

Fëanor, being the perfectionist he was, had to go through many inferior versions before he was able to create the three final Silmarils. One of those versions just wasn't quite indestructible, didn't have quite enough of the light of he trees, wasn't quite the right size for his tastes. So he threw it in the trash. Some Maia probably saw it, thought it would fetch a pretty penny, and hawked it to one of those rube Avarian elves still hanging out near lake Cuiviénen. Over the ages, it got lost among the markets and pawn shops of the Sindar until one Lorien elf dropped it on a weekend hiking trip and it fell into the caldera of the lonely mountain. Fast forward to the dwarves digging it up, naming it the Heart of the Mountain, and proclaiming that there is no other one like it. Thus, it becomes another example of the "little-man" syndrome that the dwarves harbor (passed down to them even from their very creation by Aulë) in their relationship with the elves: Their great gem that bestows a divine right to rule is just a cheap knock off of the real deal.

Sorry for the long windedness and thanks for bearing with me.

Last edited by Devium; 09-02-2014 at 06:54 PM. Reason: Fixing typos
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Old 09-01-2014, 09:33 PM   #110
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1420!

Welcome to the Downs, Devium!. And we're fine with long posts here.

Now for some quibbling:
Quote:
- The Lonely Mountain being a volcano - Many people have claimed volcanos can't be conical with a pointy peak.
Quote:
-Gem can't form in volcanos- plenty of crystallization forms in magma chambers and is then pushed to the surface in eruptions. Some examples are diamonds and obsidian. Furthermore, there are enough heat and pressure in there that many metals such as gold and silver can be refined. Who knows, maybe even mithril .
Unless I've skipped over something, two people made the first claim and one person the second; both statements were contradicted by other posters. So I wouldn't say that's "many". Anyway, the problem with the "Arkensil" case is that it uses vulcanism as a sort of "handwave" to explain away all the discrepancies between Arkenstone and Silmaril ("it floated all the way from Beleriand", "they weren't really cutting it, they were scraping off the crust" etc). Meanwhile, of course, it completely ignores the rather greater probability of the jewel having formed in said volcano naturally.

Which brings me to your theory (yes I realise you're not serious, but let's pretend). Now, it does avoid the "Arkensil" problem of *distance*, but still requires that the dwarves, despite being master craftsmen, be unable to recognise a cut stone when they see one. Which I just don't think will *do*, sorry.

Finally- I haven't read "The Hobbit" for quite a while, but is all that about the Arkenstone "bestowing the divine right to rule" actually in it? I thought it was just a movie thing.
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Old 09-01-2014, 09:59 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Nerwen View Post
Finally- I haven't read "The Hobbit" for quite a while, but is all that about the Arkenstone "bestowing the divine right to rule" actually in it? I thought it was just a movie thing.
It's definitely just a film thing. In the book the Arkenstone is a beautiful gem, but nothing more.

Personally I don't think Professor Tolkien would ever use such a hackneyed phrase, nor does it remotely fit with his own ethos. It's pretty lazy writing on the part of the filmmakers looking for a cheap MacGuffin, I would argue - a cliché that doesn't even fit because in the films (much like the non-Silmarillion books, really) there's no explicitly-defined concept of God or the divine, especially among Dwarves, which renders the phrase virtually nonsensical. Surely the only person who really has a 'divine right to rule' in the books would be Manwë. Thorin can't just be after the stone because he's greedy, because that wouldn't fit with their profitable, cliché tragic hero motivation.

I digress.

In regards to all this Silmaril-Arkenstone business, don't we have enough evidence to perceive that the Dwarves were sufficiently mighty craftsmen to be able to unearth and shape such a stone themselves? It's not like the Noldor had a monopoly on beautiful and precious things in Arda.
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Old 09-01-2014, 10:17 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Zigûr View Post
don't we have enough evidence to perceive that the Dwarves were sufficiently mighty craftsmen to be able to unearth and shape such a stone themselves? It's not like the Noldor had a monopoly on beautiful and precious things in Arda.
I present to you the Nauglamír.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silmarillion; Of the Return of the Noldor
It was a carcanet of gold, and set therein were gems uncounted from Valinor; but it had a power within it so that it rested lightly on its wearer as a strand of flax, and whatsoever neck it clasped it sat always with grace and loveliness.
And it becomes a dwarf/elf combo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Of the Ruin of Doriath
the greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves were brought together and made one; and its beauty was very great, for now the countless jewels of the Nauglamír did reflect and cast abroad in marvelous hues the light of the Silmaril amidmost.
Then Dior wears it and it makes him very fair to behold.

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Originally Posted by Of the Ruin of Doriath"
Then Dior arose, and about his neck he clasped the Nauglamír; and now he appeared as the fairest of all the children of the world , of threefold race: of the Edain, and of the Eldar, and of the Maiar of the Blessed Realm.
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Old 09-02-2014, 06:17 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Nerwen View Post

Unless I've skipped over something, two people made the first claim and one person the second; both statements were contradicted by other posters. So I wouldn't say that's "many". Anyway, the problem with the "Arkensil" case is that it uses vulcanism as a sort of "handwave" to explain away all the discrepancies between Arkenstone and Silmaril ("it floated all the way from Beleriand", "they weren't really cutting it, they were scraping off the crust" etc). Meanwhile, of course, it completely ignores the rather greater probability of the jewel having formed in said volcano naturally.
I had read the many (many) posts on the subject in this thread, however, one poster would try say "yes, volcanos can be conical" and then another poster would rebut with "no, what about this example" and point to a shield volcano. I had not read anyone definitively state why certain volcanos could be conical an some wouldn't be. I do agree with the second part of your statement though in that it is far more likely to have formed in the volcano than it is that a Silmaril made its way thousands of miles using only the geologic cycle. However, two unanswered issues do arise:

1. It is never stated which fiery chasm Maedhros jumped into. It could have been in Beleriand or it could have been further east.
2. What process would cause a singular, unique gem to form with its own inner light in the magma chamber of a volcano? Just about every other artifact in Tolkien's universe was crafted by supreme skill or sorcery.


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Originally Posted by Nerwen View Post
Which brings me to your theory (yes I realise you're not serious, but let's pretend). Now, it does avoid the "Arkensil" problem of *distance*, but still requires that the dwarves, despite being master craftsmen, be unable to recognise a cut stone when they see one. Which I just don't think will *do*, sorry.
I feel odd arguing for my comical, hair brained theory, but here we go
If the Arkenstone is an early attempt by Fëanor that was tossed out, specifically one that wasn't quite indestructible, once the dwarves found it, they could just cut it to whatever shape they desired whether it was previously cut or not. So there ya go.


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Originally Posted by Nerwen View Post
Finally- I haven't read "The Hobbit" for quite a while, but is all that about the Arkenstone "bestowing the divine right to rule" actually in it? I thought it was just a movie thing.
I apologize. I may have pulled the "divine right" phrase from the movies which I didn't mean to. However, if I'm not mistaken, Thorin has claim to it as the king in the line of Durin. The Arkenstone is an heirloom of the ruling line of Durin's Folk. So naturally, whomever dwarf possesses it is the King of Durin's folk. That's more what I meant. Sorry for the confusion.

As an aside, it sure seems like PJ is building the Arkenstone up to be a Silmaril based on comments made by Thranduil thus far in the first two movies...

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Old 09-03-2014, 05:37 PM   #114
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Tolkien Arkenstone is not Silmaril

Most of the arguments for the Arkenstone=Silmaril are basically convenient scenarios or a different and obscure understanding of the text. I like to follow the text above all else.

If the Arkenstone was a Silmaril, and floated under the crust for a long time to eventually make its way into the Lonely Volcano (which I doubt is a volcano), it would take a very long time. Whilst a long time has passed, it seems illogical that this would actually happen.

For the carving on the stone, removing the stone off of a gem would be a formality, a common practice, so while the idea of removing the stone makes sense, it is a bit silly. Wouldn't dwarves want to clean all of their finds before cutting them and making them beautiful?

Seeing as how they found it in the mountain, and were said to cut it, this leads me to believe it was found in a similar fashion to diamond, just a big clump of it with no proper shape. Carving this stone into a shape would make sense.

If the Arkenstone was a Silmaril, many more parties would undoubtedly try to get their hands on it, especially the remaining Noldor. Thranduil would have recognized it, and Gandalf would have known, or feared, it was a Silmaril before the quest was begun.

I agree with the notion that if Tolkien had the chance to revise the Hobbit, he would potentially have more hints and inferences that the Arkenstone may be a Silmaril, or another stone of similar sort.

As it stands, I believe the Arkenstone to not be a Silmaril, but just a really pretty stone.
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Old 09-05-2014, 04:25 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Devium View Post
I had read the many (many) posts on the subject in this thread, however, one poster would try say "yes, volcanos can be conical" and then another poster would rebut with "no, what about this example" and point to a shield volcano. I had not read anyone definitively state why certain volcanos could be conical an some wouldn't be. I do agree with the second part of your statement though in that it is far more likely to have formed in the volcano than it is that a Silmaril made its way thousands of miles using only the geologic cycle. However, two unanswered issues do arise:

1. It is never stated which fiery chasm Maedhros jumped into. It could have been in Beleriand or it could have been further east.
Well, that brings the distance problem back in. Not as badly as the supposition that the thing somehow floated all the way by itself, but you think it would have been mentioned that Maedhros had chosen to go on such an extremely long trek prior to doing away with himself… I know! Maybe the Silmaril fell out of his pocket and was scooped up by an eagle. The bird of course intended to take it back to Valinor, but, overcome by lust for the jewel, flew off with it in the opposite direction– only to have the hallowed crystal burn its now-unclean talons, forcing it to drop it into the crater of the then-active Erebor. (The eagle, not daring to show its beak in Aman and, went off to skulk in some mountains somewhere and possibly became the progenitor of the Fell Beasts.) There! Problem solved!

Quote:
2. What process would cause a singular, unique gem to form with its own inner light in the magma chamber of a volcano? Just about every other artifact in Tolkien's universe was crafted by supreme skill or sorcery.
I double-checked this, and the book is quite clear that the Arkenstone was *fashioned* by the dwarves. i.e. is a product of craft – it’s only on this thread that people seem to have decided they found it basically “as is”. Nonetheless the description does leave it open that its glowing is an inherent property of the stone itself (i.e. rather than the result of dwarven magic). However, I don’t see why that can’t be a freak of nature– after all Middle-earth possesses a metal, mithril, with special properties.
Quote:
I feel odd arguing for my comical, hair brained theory, but here we go
If the Arkenstone is an early attempt by Fëanor that was tossed out, specifically one that wasn't quite indestructible, once the dwarves found it, they could just cut it to whatever shape they desired whether it was previously cut or not. So there ya go.
Ah, but my point is that they would know whether it was previously cut or not– again, these are supposed to be skilled craftsmen.

Quote:
As an aside, it sure seems like PJ is building the Arkenstone up to be a Silmaril based on comments made by Thranduil thus far in the first two movies...
You may be right there. At any rate it’s certainly a bigger deal than it is in the book.

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Originally Posted by Tar-Jêx View Post
I agree with the notion that if Tolkien had the chance to revise the Hobbit, he would potentially have more hints and inferences that the Arkenstone may be a Silmaril, or another stone of similar sort.
But he had decades in which to do so and didn’t…
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Old 09-05-2014, 09:22 AM   #116
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I double-checked this, and the book is quite clear that the Arkenstone was *fashioned* by the dwarves. i.e. is a product of craft – it's only on this thread that people seem to have decided they found it basically "as is". Nonetheless the description does leave it open that its glowing is an inherent property of the stone itself (i.e. rather than the result of dwarven magic). However, I don’t see why that can't be a freak of nature– after all Middle-earth possesses a metal, mithril, with special properties.
Yes! And as I may have added before in this thread, I think it's notable that the gem still shone with its inner light when it was the gift of Girion to the Dwarves (in payment for the arming of his sons), with no information as to how Girion got the gem in the first place:

Quote:
'It was a great white gem, that shone of its own light within, and yet cut and fashioned by the Dwarves to whom Girion had given it, it caught and splintered...'
This is actual 'new' evidence, or at least something not known until the relatively recent The History of The Hobbit was released, and to my mind it illustrates that Tolkien had no great problem giving this property to a gem used to 'pay' for the arming of Girion's sons.

Of course some will, or might, say the Gem of Girion only 'evolved' into a Silmaril in any case, as it evolved in the making of the tale.

Not me but some
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Old 12-05-2015, 07:38 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Morthoron View Post
Do you think the Silmaril's migration was annual? Like the albatross? You also didn't take into account that, perhaps, the Balrog was on a skiing trip to Mount Gundabad at that point in time. Maybe Balrogs liked to ski. It could be a possibility. Tolkien never said Balrogs didn't ski. Or luge. Or take up needlepoint in their old age. I always think of Balrogs in tutus and pointe shoes doing ballet manuevers when I hear The Rite of Spring by Stravinsky. I'm sorry, I seem to be wandering. Random even.
I had to laugh out loud at this one. It was spontaneous and I couldn't stop it once the hilarity of the post struck me.....perhaps, Morothon, it wasn't a ski trip. Perhaps Balrogs enjoyed the equivalent (with lava flow) of our waterslides in Fun Parks. Perhaps they dropped the Silmaril from moving through too narrow a channel of lava flow on one of their 'fun rides'.

@Landrovel and the other ***awesomely brave*** posters who are tackling an unorthodox theory. I love youZ for it, and I'm going to - for the total sake of fun, take the 'side' in Debate with Landrovel's team.

Okay:

1. Lava flows in subterranean conduits, do indeed, transport items, for many, many kilometres.
2. When Maedhros hurled the Silmaril (the silly MAN woops ELF for all the kinslaying) he couldn't even touch his father's 'precious' Silmaril -- at all -- by end of FA.
3. Morgoth COULD touch it. Somehow, it seems, that Evil (c.f. evil) beings could bear the 'heat' of the touch of the Silmaril, if their Evil power was MAXED past, I dunno, 'exactly' what setting, but some 'thermostat' control seemed to apply.
4. Gothmog was pretty amped up, in terms of, ya know, Evil zshoo zshoo.
5. UNGOLIANT. hahahaha, DRANK all that fluid from the Trees and seemed to quite enjoy it.
6. Ergo, obviously, SPIDERS and possibly DRAGONS and BALROGS are all candidates for a 'Migrating Silmaril'....and I'll be cheeky, HYPOTHESIS.
7. I wonder what happens when, say, Balrogs, (between big battles) get BORED while their Dark Lord does this and that, and Dagor This and That readying. Perhaps, they found (was it Maedhros???Hahaha) Silmaril....thing....and said to each other (ya know lads, when I touch that darned thing, it hurts, and so, I peddle faster in our lava boat race).

Thus, in conclusion, perhaps a Balrog of lesser stature than Gothmog (e.g. the one in the Misty Mountains) used the Silmaril in a "Balrog Lava Race" and got into really big trouble, coz he dropped it, when he overshot, and popped up in Erebor, before smelling Dwaves in Khazad Dum.

And the more serious version - there are indeed, a number of ways a Silmaril can migrate through subterranean routes. And Master Tolkien was very good at giving us all Temporal Causality Loop headaches. That is, by the time he finished every darned one chapter at a time, poor Chris has a very big headache, trying to give dates, times, and annotations to emendations in the various headaches he must have had releasing post LotR works.

It's not -- entirely -- out of the question that the prof could have varied his story about the Silmarils, to say, allow for A SECOND one to be found, as the precursor to the Last Battle and Remaking of Arda. (that aweseome time when Teleperion and Laurelin are REKINDLED!)

AND Morothon, actually to use one of your own prior arguments (see the Bilbo thread), wait, I'll go get it and see for yourself.

AMEN

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Old 12-05-2015, 07:50 PM   #118
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http://forum.barrowdowns.com/newrepl...reply&p=703077

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Originally Posted by Morthoron View Post
<--snip-->So what does Tolkien do after publishing The Hobbit? In writing a sequel, he magnifies the tale of Bilbo Baggins and the other characters. Gandalf goes from pitching pinecones to defeating a Balrog. Cozy Erebor becomes the decrepit but magnificent Khazad-dum. The dispossessed Bard with the black arrow becomes the dispossessed Aragorn with shards and a lineage that predates the Age. Oh, and a magic ring that grants invisibility becomes the One Ring, the manifestation of all evil, created by an eternal foe, Sauron, who was borrowed from the 1st Age, but now was hiding out as a necromancer in Dol Guldur but really has a far greater keep in Mordor.<--snip-->
Ergo, by your own contrivance, we have a --theoretical-- tool to 'amp up' the 'dumbed down' "Hobbit-ish--bedtime-story-to-serious-tale" variation.

Let's add in this:

adapting Morothon's concepts

And the Arkenstone is magnified into the glorious Holy Jewel - A Silmaril in the book entitled.

Of The Tale of The Years of The Silmarils' Migration


(Holy Ghost Publications, Heavenly Year - Temporal Causality Loop A-La Tolkien, channelled by Grace AMEN)
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Old 12-05-2015, 10:39 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Devium View Post
I had read the many (many) posts on the subject in this thread, however, one poster would try say "yes, volcanos can be conical" and then another poster would rebut with "no, what about this example" and point to a shield volcano. I had not read anyone definitively state why certain volcanos could be conical an some wouldn't be. I do agree with the second part of your statement though in that it is far more likely to have formed in the volcano than it is that a Silmaril made its way thousands of miles using only the geologic cycle. However, two unanswered issues do arise:

1. It is never stated which fiery chasm Maedhros jumped into. It could have been in Beleriand or it could have been further east.
2. What process would cause a singular, unique gem to form with its own inner light in the magma chamber of a volcano? Just about every other artifact in Tolkien's universe was crafted by supreme skill or sorcery.




I feel odd arguing for my comical, hair brained theory, but here we go
If the Arkenstone is an early attempt by Fëanor that was tossed out, specifically one that wasn't quite indestructible, once the dwarves found it, they could just cut it to whatever shape they desired whether it was previously cut or not. So there ya go.




I apologize. I may have pulled the "divine right" phrase from the movies which I didn't mean to. However, if I'm not mistaken, Thorin has claim to it as the king in the line of Durin. The Arkenstone is an heirloom of the ruling line of Durin's Folk. So naturally, whomever dwarf possesses it is the King of Durin's folk. That's more what I meant. Sorry for the confusion.

As an aside, it sure seems like PJ is building the Arkenstone up to be a Silmaril based on comments made by Thranduil thus far in the first two movies...
post.

Was it you upstream or elsewhere where I read the really interesting stuff about Volcanism?

I reckon Balrogs can travel through lava flows, actually. So - after Beleriand sank-ed, who knows, where Maedhros ended up. We know he fell into a chasm or some such "the earth" nigh the water, and it's been so long since I read it, I can't quite remember exactly where.

Just recall seeing a really awesome Ted Nasmith of Maedhros hearling the Silmaril. I'll fetch it shortly.

Quote:
[Taking a Liberty]Thence, after the sinking of Beleriand, much lava burst forth from the ruin of that great battle, as the swords of flame of Elves of Eldamar were hurled forth, in a great chorus of Elvish song, as the lands sank, so also Maedhros's*** resting place was consumed by great lava of heats.

Thence, that Balrod, who contrived in some long time in the future, to devour the Seven Fathers in Moria, did submerge himself in the great heats of lava, and so, escaped the Sinking of Beleriand.

Thence, as Fate would chance it, he happened to spy the glowing Silaril in the great subterannean lava flows and he grabbed the Holy Jewell. It burned the Balrog so very greatly, and so hotly, yet he bore it many a year, as he sojourned, lost in the deeps of the lava flows.

Thrice thence, over-thenced, or in accordance with Ring Lore of the Three-thence, thrice-ly thenced, and were it but for the Silmaril, he would have not have been UNlost (and not UNgoliant-ed). For so did he surface after such a journey in Erebor, and yet, could not bear the touch of the SIlmaril ever again. And so, in anguish, he hurled the gem into the bowels of Lonely Mountain, before making his way, overland to Moria in the stealth of night, and by the distractions allowed by Sauron, in the fifty years he was in Morder, in 1600 SA, (plus or minus 100 years or so as I can't quite remember off hand) during the forging of The One.

And so - coordinated his assault with Sauron upon the Dwarves when the Ring Spell was uttered--and Thrice-ly Thence, the Third - Celebrimbor TH-eard woops, I mean H-eard only the Ash Nazg thingy...not the Balrog thrice thing.
[/Liberty]
***Canon-ITE-Warning - Informed Consent hahahaha

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Old 12-05-2015, 11:05 PM   #120
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*M*A*G*L*O*R* throws the Simaril


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