Gollum's Purpose/Motives (To Stir Things Up) - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

***Gilthalion*** · 06-11-2001, 09:32 AM

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Re: Gollum's Purpose/Motives (To Stir Things Up)

What a great thread!

1) Regarding the Ring leaving the hand of Isildur, or having its own will (so to speak):

One could argue that a computer program can make choices/decisions, but that it has no actual will of its own. It must follow its programming, however intricate.

The Ring was certainly "programmed"/enchanted to look out after itself, to gauge its possessor/possessee, and to leave that person at the best opportunity (or in response to the call of Sauron or his surrogates, the Wraiths?).

It was able to slip on or off a finger at certain times. These times seemed to be related to Sauron's conscious desire. His body was slain and Isildur took the Ring. Sometime thereafter (was it months, or a span of a couple of years), Isildur with a small band, passed by Dol Goldur and on up to the Gladden Fields. By that time, he was ambushed.

Was there significance to the proximity of Isildur's journey to this evil fortress?

While Sauron was not yet known to have been re-embodied, because the Ring was not destroyed, is it not possible that (however weak) Sauron had not already regained somewhat of his essence, and was able to inspire (if not direct) the ambush and command the treacherous behavior of the Ring?

2) Regarding Gollum and the Nature of Evil

Gollum was a wicked fellow to start with. While the Ring inspired his initial murder of Deagol (and Bilbo's initial lie to Gandalf and the Dwarves), the subsequent usage of the Ring was according to the nature of the possessors. Bilbo pitied the wretched murderous Gollum (as Gollum had not pitied his only friend, Deagol), helped his friends, repented of his lies, repented of his burglary of Thranduil's Caverns (however necessary), and otherwise used the Ring to escape unwelcome guests and as a Practical Joke at his 111th Birthday Party. He eventually gave the Ring up freely.

Gollum murdered his best (only?) friend and hid the body. He took to thieving from his own relatives and finding out hurtful secrets. He never repented of his crimes. When the Ring left him, he cursed "Baggins!" and indeed carried his hatred forever (or at least until his own timely demise).

Was Gollum utterly Evil? No. Nor even was Sauron at the start. Nor was Morgoth created Evil.

Questions about the Nature of Evil inevitably return to the issue of Free Will. We have to look to Tolkien's understanding of Reality (and the Truths he sought to illustrate with his Fairy Tale/Mythology), to get a grasp of how Free Will functioned in Middle-earth. The parallels to Judeo-Christian theology (especially the Catholic brand) are inescapable. But I'll not digress that far.

Confining the discussion to Arda/Middle-earth, Melkor and the rest of the Valar had the greatest measure of Free Will granted to Illuvatar's creations. They made their choices "in the beginning" so to speak, before Arda/Creation was made.

All of their subsequent "free" choices were constrained thereafter by the songs they had sung of the Destiny of Arda and of the Children of Illuvatar (Elves and Men and "adopted" Dwarves). Illuvatar purposed that even the Evil that Melkor/Morgoth had chosen (and the subsequent evil decisions that he and the other creatures would make in the working of Destiny) would be the source of greater Good than originally created.

Smeagol's choices made him into a Gollum. He could have chosen (at almost any time) a path of goodness and redemption. Indeed, through the Dead Marshes, he made such choices frequently.

His will was surely limited by the consequences of his prior choices and the circumstances of his life. But even before the Ring came into his miserable life, he chose a wicked way. When he had an opportunity through the Pity and Mercy of Frodo to redeem himself, he cast it aside on the flimsiest of pretexts. (And do not blame Sam for his harsh words, of which he immediately repented!) Smeagol might have ended his ruined life in a redemptive sacrifice to save Frodo from the Ring. Instead, he ended it as Gollum, clutching his Precious to himself as he had for hundreds of years of misery and torment.

While the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil, it is the love/worship of self that is seed of evil.

From Morgoth to Gollum, we see it starkly. From the grand scale to the subtle hints, Tolkien presents Evil in great contrast to Good.

The sacrificial love of others above self is the fruit of Good.

Tolkien shows us both clearly.

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06-11-2001, 09:32 AM	#33
*Gilthalion* Hobbitus Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: South Farthing Posts: 635	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hobbitus Emeritus Posts: 420</TD><TD><img src=http://home.att.net/~robertwgardner/lotrmap.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Gollum's Purpose/Motives (To Stir Things Up) What a great thread! 1) Regarding the Ring leaving the hand of Isildur, or having its own will (so to speak): One could argue that a computer program can make choices/decisions, but that it has no actual will of its own. It must follow its programming, however intricate. The Ring was certainly "programmed"/enchanted to look out after itself, to gauge its possessor/possessee, and to leave that person at the best opportunity (or in response to the call of Sauron or his surrogates, the Wraiths?). It was able to slip on or off a finger at certain times. These times seemed to be related to Sauron's conscious desire. His body was slain and Isildur took the Ring. Sometime thereafter (was it months, or a span of a couple of years), Isildur with a small band, passed by Dol Goldur and on up to the Gladden Fields. By that time, he was ambushed. Was there significance to the proximity of Isildur's journey to this evil fortress? While Sauron was not yet known to have been re-embodied, because the Ring was not destroyed, is it not possible that (however weak) Sauron had not already regained somewhat of his essence, and was able to inspire (if not direct) the ambush and command the treacherous behavior of the Ring? 2) Regarding Gollum and the Nature of Evil Gollum was a wicked fellow to start with. While the Ring inspired his initial murder of Deagol (and Bilbo's initial lie to Gandalf and the Dwarves), the subsequent usage of the Ring was according to the nature of the possessors. Bilbo pitied the wretched murderous Gollum (as Gollum had not pitied his only friend, Deagol), helped his friends, repented of his lies, repented of his burglary of Thranduil's Caverns (however necessary), and otherwise used the Ring to escape unwelcome guests and as a Practical Joke at his 111th Birthday Party. He eventually gave the Ring up freely. Gollum murdered his best (only?) friend and hid the body. He took to thieving from his own relatives and finding out hurtful secrets. He never repented of his crimes. When the Ring left him, he cursed "Baggins!" and indeed carried his hatred forever (or at least until his own timely demise). Was Gollum utterly Evil? No. Nor even was Sauron at the start. Nor was Morgoth created Evil. Questions about the Nature of Evil inevitably return to the issue of Free Will. We have to look to Tolkien's understanding of Reality (and the Truths he sought to illustrate with his Fairy Tale/Mythology), to get a grasp of how Free Will functioned in Middle-earth. The parallels to Judeo-Christian theology (especially the Catholic brand) are inescapable. But I'll not digress that far. Confining the discussion to Arda/Middle-earth, Melkor and the rest of the Valar had the greatest measure of Free Will granted to Illuvatar's creations. They made their choices "in the beginning" so to speak, before Arda/Creation was made. All of their subsequent "free" choices were constrained thereafter by the songs they had sung of the Destiny of Arda and of the Children of Illuvatar (Elves and Men and "adopted" Dwarves). Illuvatar purposed that even the Evil that Melkor/Morgoth had chosen (and the subsequent evil decisions that he and the other creatures would make in the working of Destiny) would be the source of greater Good than originally created. Smeagol's choices made him into a Gollum. He could have chosen (at almost any time) a path of goodness and redemption. Indeed, through the Dead Marshes, he made such choices frequently. His will was surely limited by the consequences of his prior choices and the circumstances of his life. But even before the Ring came into his miserable life, he chose a wicked way. When he had an opportunity through the Pity and Mercy of Frodo to redeem himself, he cast it aside on the flimsiest of pretexts. (And do not blame Sam for his harsh words, of which he immediately repented!) Smeagol might have ended his ruined life in a redemptive sacrifice to save Frodo from the Ring. Instead, he ended it as Gollum, clutching his Precious to himself as he had for hundreds of years of misery and torment. While the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil, it is the love/worship of self that is seed of evil. From Morgoth to Gollum, we see it starkly. From the grand scale to the subtle hints, Tolkien presents Evil in great contrast to Good. The sacrificial love of others above self is the fruit of Good. Tolkien shows us both clearly. <center><font face=verdana size=1> http://www.barrowdowns.comBarrow-Downs</a>~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000Bare Bones</a>~http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhirTar Ost-in-Eruhir</a>~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgard...ilthalion.htmlGrand Adventures</a>~http://www.barrowdowns.com/fanfichobbits.aspThe Hobbits</a>~http://www.tolkientrail.comTolkien Trail</a> </center></p> __________________ Please read my fan fiction novel THE HOBBITS. Wanna hear me read Tolkien? Gilthalion's Grand Adventures!