Random Thought - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Manwe Sulimo · 09-02-2002, 10:03 AM

Seriously random thought....I mean, I opened my gigantic copy of LotR and it opened right to this....

In "The Ring Goes South", when the Fellowship reaches Hollin, Legolas comments "...and the trees and the grass do not remember them. Only I hear the stones lament them: deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us: but they are gone. They are gone. They sought the Havens long ago."

Is this literal, or figurative? Can Elves actually communicate with nature like Tom Bombadil or the Ents?

[ September 02, 2002: Message edited by: Manwe Sulimo ]

***The Barrow-Wight*** · 09-02-2002, 10:11 AM

I always assumed he was just poetically translating how he saw the state of the land, but perhaps there is more to it. Are there other examples of Legolas or another Elf conversing with or at least hearing the land?

Manwe Sulimo · 09-02-2002, 10:23 AM

Well, there was Elrond's sorcery in controlling Bruinen....other than that, I can't remember.

Cúdae · 09-02-2002, 10:39 AM

I always assumed that (like the barrow-wight said) Legolas was just poetically explaining how he saw the world...
But then again, there might be more to it. Elves always had a strong connection with nature, and Legolas being a wood-elf might have had a strong connection with trees. Besides that in Fangorn Legolas says (or something similiar to this) "And I might come to understand their thought in time." He was taliing about the trees (Ents) before he knew they were Ents so possibly he (and all other Elves) can communicate with nature.

Beren87 · 09-02-2002, 01:14 PM

Well, the elves did "wake up" the Ents and teach them to speak. so they can speak to trees, how else would you teach them? Perhaps Elves have an overly accute sense of hearing as well as sight.

Eol · 09-02-2002, 01:38 PM

A very interesting point, as I never came to that conclusion before.

It mentions in the Silmarillion that the elves are made of the stuff of the earth as Man are. Would Man be able to have an intimate relations with nature?

Manwe Sulimo · 09-02-2002, 02:26 PM

No....Men were too busy destroying nature.

Remember the Great Forest that was almost completely chopped up by the Númenóreans?

akhtene · 09-02-2002, 04:27 PM

It is said that any creator leaves a tiny piese of their soul in every creation. As Legolas refers to stones telling the history of old, perhaps what is meant in this case is not his communicating with nature, but memories that can return through works of human or elven hands.

NyteSky · 09-02-2002, 09:23 PM

There is the old forest outside of Hobbiton. I'm afraid I don't have a copy of FotR with me to look up the name. But it was "alive" in the sentient sense enough for even the hobbits to notice. It clearly remembered what had happened in the past as well, when the hobbits drove it back.
Also Caradhras at least seemed actively malevelent. Forgive me if I mixed up any of that info, it's been too long since I last read the books. I've always taken Legolas literally on that part. I hadn't realized it could be thought of another way. Interesting.

Birdland · 09-02-2002, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Elves began it, of course, waking trees up and teaching them to speak and learning their tree-talk. They always wished to talk to everything, the old Elves did. - "Treebeard", Chapter 4, Book III, The Two Towers

There you have it, straight from the Treebeard's mouth. I suppose if they talked to the trees, then they talked to the stones, plants, animals, insects, and birds as well. And don't forget the way Legolas was able to "horse whisper" to Arod to get him to go through the Paths of the Dead.

Makes for a good argument that Elves were vegetarian. Wouldn't want to eat something I'd had a conversation with.

***Mister Underhill*** · 09-04-2002, 01:37 AM

Yeah, but if you're talking to "[trees,] stones, plants, animals, insects, and birds", that doesn't leave much for your diet. I suppose you could sneak up on things like wheat and various fruits and vegetables and whack them up before you really got to know them, but still... As a side note -- I can't imagine that a rock would have much that's interesting to say, hence the expression, "Dumb as a..." [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Anyway, I always take the things that Treebeard says with a grain of salt. One of my favorite Letters says this:

Quote:

Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand.

[ September 04, 2002: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]

Morgoth Bauglir · 09-04-2002, 03:50 PM

well..rocks have been there for so long and they probably see alot [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Alaggaeriel · 09-04-2002, 05:12 PM

When Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli are on the trail of the Orcs that ceptured Merry and Pippen, Aragorn stops and listens to the ground and says, "Where sight fails the earth may bring us rumour. The land must groan under their hated feet." and so on. So I do think the Elves and Aragorn could talk to nature. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

***Mister Underhill*** · 09-04-2002, 06:23 PM

I've always taken Aragorn laying his ear to the ground as something akin to that old Indian trick that the likes of Chingachgook and Tonto used to pull -- he's reading the vibrations of the earth to see if he can determine the bearing and distance of their enemies, not listening to the whisperings of some sod-spirit. The "groan under their hated feet" is just a bit of poetic license, in my estimation. The rest of the quote you mention is:

Quote:

'The rumour of the earth is dim and confused,' he said. 'Nothing walks upon it for many miles about us. Faint and far are the feet of our enemies. But loud are the hoofs of the horses. It comes to my mind that I heard them, even as I lay on the ground in sleep, and they troubled my dreams: horses galloping, passing in the West. But now they are drawing ever further from us, riding northward. I wonder what is happening in this land!'

[ September 04, 2002: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]

Manwe Sulimo · 09-04-2002, 06:31 PM

Well, now I know what to believe....as for you guys, choose what you want [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

Tirned Tinnu · 09-06-2002, 02:16 PM

OH! Have I something to add here!
Have you ever walked a path that you know has not been trod by man or beast for thousands of years? I compare my trip to Ireland as such.
Here in the USA things are young. The forests have been chopped down and regrown, the paths Indians once took covered in tar and cement. I cannot feel the ancients! I cannot see their bodies walking thru the forests of new trees.
Once in a long while, if the night is right, in the Autumn, when the mists grow and the moon shines down ghostly through the clouds, sometimes I can see the spirits of Indians and colonists and soldiers walking silently. If you turn your head to check again for them, they are gone.
But when I walk in Ireland, the land calls up to me. The ground whispers constantly. The woods are shouting at me. The Mountains cry out, singing to me. They all tell of thousands of years of history. There were so many from the dawn of time until the moment that I set foot there, that the screaming of the Past is almost deafening. And yet...try to make clear the message, and all you hear is gone. For the rocks and the trees do not tell secrets there. They speak a different language, and I am too young to know it.

I made my way as a fiddler, and travelled only a bit. In that way, I saw the history. It's written in the faces of the people, in their singing and dancing, and in their very speech. I was quickly swallowed up by the locals. If I could have stayed, I would have. Sometimes I rue the day I came back to this young country, with its woods all scrubbed clean. But I will return, perhaps, next to Scotland, and I'd better bring earplugs, for I've got a feeling that it's more spirited than Ireland.

[ September 07, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ]

Craban · 09-06-2002, 11:57 PM

What a beautiful post, Tirned Tinnu.

I know what you mean. America is too young - in the places where too many people are, anyway. But in the wild places you can feel how ancient the land really is. And I've been to Scotland and Ireland too and other ancient places in Europe and yes, it is completely different.

I always thought that the Elves were once able to communicate with everything but this too was diminishing as their autumn came. Legolas's quote was probably part hearing, part folk memory, and partly the way his sort of earth-ears were particularly turned to laments about things and people that are gone.

09-02-2002, 10:03 AM	#1
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Random Thought Seriously random thought....I mean, I opened my gigantic copy of LotR and it opened right to this.... In "The Ring Goes South", when the Fellowship reaches Hollin, Legolas comments "...and the trees and the grass do not remember them. Only I hear the stones lament them: deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us: but they are gone. They are gone. They sought the Havens long ago." Is this literal, or figurative? Can Elves actually communicate with nature like Tom Bombadil or the Ents? [ September 02, 2002: Message edited by: Manwe Sulimo ] __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

09-02-2002, 10:11 AM	#2
*The Barrow-Wight* Night In Wight Satin Join Date: May 2000 Posts: 4,052	I always assumed he was just poetically translating how he saw the state of the land, but perhaps there is more to it. Are there other examples of Legolas or another Elf conversing with or at least hearing the land? __________________ The Barrow-Wight

09-02-2002, 10:23 AM	#3
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Well, there was Elrond's sorcery in controlling Bruinen....other than that, I can't remember. __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

09-02-2002, 10:39 AM	#4
Cúdae Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 161	I always assumed that (like the barrow-wight said) Legolas was just poetically explaining how he saw the world... But then again, there might be more to it. Elves always had a strong connection with nature, and Legolas being a wood-elf might have had a strong connection with trees. Besides that in Fangorn Legolas says (or something similiar to this) "And I might come to understand their thought in time." He was taliing about the trees (Ents) before he knew they were Ents so possibly he (and all other Elves) can communicate with nature. __________________ "And if you listen very hard/ The tune will come to you at last/ When all are one and one is all/ To be a rock and not to roll." --Led Zeppelin "Stairway to Heaven"

09-02-2002, 01:38 PM	#6
Eol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The Pacific Northwest - Tir Nan Og Posts: 306	A very interesting point, as I never came to that conclusion before. It mentions in the Silmarillion that the elves are made of the stuff of the earth as Man are. Would Man be able to have an intimate relations with nature? __________________ Mes sana in corpec sano- (lt.) A sound mind in a sound body

09-02-2002, 01:14 PM	#5
Beren87 Master of the Secret Fire Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Between fire and ice, death and life Posts: 2,260	Well, the elves did "wake up" the Ents and teach them to speak. so they can speak to trees, how else would you teach them? Perhaps Elves have an overly accute sense of hearing as well as sight.

09-02-2002, 02:26 PM	#7
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	No....Men were too busy destroying nature. Remember the Great Forest that was almost completely chopped up by the Númenóreans? __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

09-02-2002, 04:27 PM	#8
akhtene Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: stronghold of the North Posts: 392	It is said that any creator leaves a tiny piese of their soul in every creation. As Legolas refers to stones telling the history of old, perhaps what is meant in this case is not his communicating with nature, but memories that can return through works of human or elven hands. __________________ Где найти мне сил, чтобы вернуться через века, Чтобы ты - простил?.. А трава разлуки высока...

09-02-2002, 09:23 PM	#9
NyteSky Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Tower of Sorcery and Lore Posts: 76	There is the old forest outside of Hobbiton. I'm afraid I don't have a copy of FotR with me to look up the name. But it was "alive" in the sentient sense enough for even the hobbits to notice. It clearly remembered what had happened in the past as well, when the hobbits drove it back. Also Caradhras at least seemed actively malevelent. Forgive me if I mixed up any of that info, it's been too long since I last read the books. I've always taken Legolas literally on that part. I hadn't realized it could be thought of another way. Interesting. __________________ The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity. AIM: NightSky717 Email/msn IM: davidone_2000@msn.com

09-04-2002, 03:50 PM	#12
Morgoth Bauglir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 252	well..rocks have been there for so long and they probably see alot [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

09-04-2002, 05:12 PM	#13
Alaggaeriel Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Texas, USA Posts: 35	When Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli are on the trail of the Orcs that ceptured Merry and Pippen, Aragorn stops and listens to the ground and says, "Where sight fails the earth may bring us rumour. The land must groan under their hated feet." and so on. So I do think the Elves and Aragorn could talk to nature. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] __________________ Speak, Friend, and Enter.

09-04-2002, 06:31 PM	#15
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Well, now I know what to believe....as for you guys, choose what you want [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

09-06-2002, 02:16 PM	#16
Tirned Tinnu Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Patchogue NY Posts: 158	OH! Have I something to add here! Have you ever walked a path that you know has not been trod by man or beast for thousands of years? I compare my trip to Ireland as such. Here in the USA things are young. The forests have been chopped down and regrown, the paths Indians once took covered in tar and cement. I cannot feel the ancients! I cannot see their bodies walking thru the forests of new trees. Once in a long while, if the night is right, in the Autumn, when the mists grow and the moon shines down ghostly through the clouds, sometimes I can see the spirits of Indians and colonists and soldiers walking silently. If you turn your head to check again for them, they are gone. But when I walk in Ireland, the land calls up to me. The ground whispers constantly. The woods are shouting at me. The Mountains cry out, singing to me. They all tell of thousands of years of history. There were so many from the dawn of time until the moment that I set foot there, that the screaming of the Past is almost deafening. And yet...try to make clear the message, and all you hear is gone. For the rocks and the trees do not tell secrets there. They speak a different language, and I am too young to know it. I made my way as a fiddler, and travelled only a bit. In that way, I saw the history. It's written in the faces of the people, in their singing and dancing, and in their very speech. I was quickly swallowed up by the locals. If I could have stayed, I would have. Sometimes I rue the day I came back to this young country, with its woods all scrubbed clean. But I will return, perhaps, next to Scotland, and I'd better bring earplugs, for I've got a feeling that it's more spirited than Ireland. [ September 07, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ] __________________ 'Perilous indeed,' said Aragorn, 'fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them. Follow me!'

09-06-2002, 11:57 PM	#17
Craban Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Dunland, USA Posts: 13	What a beautiful post, Tirned Tinnu. I know what you mean. America is too young - in the places where too many people are, anyway. But in the wild places you can feel how ancient the land really is. And I've been to Scotland and Ireland too and other ancient places in Europe and yes, it is completely different. I always thought that the Elves were once able to communicate with everything but this too was diminishing as their autumn came. Legolas's quote was probably part hearing, part folk memory, and partly the way his sort of earth-ears were particularly turned to laments about things and people that are gone.