Origins of Gollum

[Mister Underhill]

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All this talk of the origins of Hobbit-folk makes me wonder... what the heck is Gollum? I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but I seem to recall intimations of Hobbitish descent. Is he a twisted Hobbit? A Man-child who was stunted and corrupted by the radioactive glow of the One Ring? Something else?

</p>

[gamegie]

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Re: Origins of Gollum

I thought he was a hobbit that turned like he is under both the influence of the ring and the fact he lived for so long under the Misty Mountains in darkness...

Charming Humble Hobbit</p>

[galpsi]

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Re: Origins of Gollum

Just so. A stoor twisted by the Ring, twisted by the dark, twisted for sure.

</p>

[Suldaledhel]

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Re: Origins of Gollum

IT was said In LOTR that Gandalf thought he was of a very old people akin to the Stoors, although very distanly, but I do believe that Gollum was &quot;stretched&quot; by the ring. Im ot sure whether Tolkien wanted Gollum to physically appear like a Hobbit, but I would say that he is pretty much a warped Hobbit.

"There is no God but what cannot be comprehended. There is nothing that cannot be comprehended, but what is not conceivable. There is nothing conceivable but what is immeasurable. There is nothing immeasurable but God. There is no God but what is not concievable." -Ganymede to Arthur One may find me at: http://pub24.ezboard.com/bmountgundabad </p>

[Grand Admiral Reese]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Origins of Gollum

Gandalf thought he was related to the Hobbits. Although all those centuries under the Misty Mountains made him a very different creature indeed.


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[Gwaihir the Windlord]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/wight.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Origins of Gollum

Just as the Hobbits are a sub-species of Man (probably), the race that Gollum came from was probably a sub-species of Hobbits.

"Farewell! Wherever you fare, until your eyries receive you at the journey's end."</p>

[Suldaledhel]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Origins of Gollum

Hmm I never knew Hobbits were a sub-species of man, but Gollum must undoubtedly be a &quot;sub-species&quot; of Hobbits seeing their similarities.

"There is no God but what cannot be comprehended. There is nothing that cannot be comprehended, but what is not conceivable. There is nothing conceivable but what is immeasurable. There is nothing immeasurable but God. There is no God but what is not concievable." -Ganymede to Arthur</p>

[burrahobbit]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Origins of Gollum

He was a Stoor, one of the three kinds of Hobbits. Fallohides and Harfoots (Harfeet!) are the other two.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[Suldaledhel]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Origins of Gollum

But LOTR didnt say that he WAS a stoor, Gandalf said he THOUGHT that Gollum's relatives were related to the stoors in some distant way. I dont remember LOTR openly saying that Gollum was a stoor.

"There is no God but what cannot be comprehended. There is nothing that cannot be comprehended, but what is not conceivable. There is nothing conceivable but what is immeasurable. There is nothing immeasurable but God. There is no God but what is not concievable." -Ganymede to Arthur</p>

[burrahobbit]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Origins of Gollum

Gandalf doesn't think things without reason. Gandalf saying that he thought Gollum was a great grand uncle of the Stoors is like me saying that I think I woke up this morning. Something similar to that is said in the text. Between two and three thousand years had passed between the loss and finding of the Ring, closer to two thousand, not enough for then to change very much.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[Suldaledhel]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Origins of Gollum

Well yes, but Im saying that I, at least, do not think that GOllum's people are Stoors, just distant relatives.

"There is no God but what cannot be comprehended. There is nothing that cannot be comprehended, but what is not conceivable. There is nothing conceivable but what is immeasurable. There is nothing immeasurable but God. There is no God but what is not concievable." -Ganymede to Arthur</p>

[burrahobbit]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Origins of Gollum

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The Stoors lingered long by the banks of the Great River Anduin<hr></blockquote>The Anduin is where the Ring was lost and found, by fisherfolk that lived on its banks.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[galpsi]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Origins of Gollum

It has always seemed to me more or less essential that Gollum was a hobbit. He is the real dark threat hanging over Frodo throughout the latter books of the trilogy. Not merely the threat that he might attack or betray Frodo, but the threat that he is Frodo's future, the threat that Frodo would be mastered by the ring. And obviously it is a very real threat.
Tolkien plays a theologically interesting variant on the Christian conception of Christ as the second Adam, the man who must redeem man as Adam had previously damned man. For Frodo is the redemptor of the Ring as Gollum was debased by the Ring before him. Yet Frodo is unable to to redeem the ring, truly It claims him and only Gollum completes the quest, ironically repaying Frodo's earlier mercy.
There are less poetic bases for believing that Gollum was a (degraded) hobbit. Several have been recited above. I find them compelling. My favorite suggestion is near the end of Book 4, Chapter 8. It is the passage where Sam and Frodo fall asleep just before attempting Cirith Ungol. Gollum looks down on them emotionally, seeming to regret his planned treachery. He caresses Frodo's hand and Tolkien says that if the sleepers had seen him they'd have thought that they beheld just an old weary hobbit, shrunken by the years that had carried him far beyond his time, beyond friends and kin, and the fields and streams of youth, an old starved pitiable thing.
Their kinship, their likeness as Ring-bearers, these traits make the relationship between Frodo and Gollum so effective.

</p>

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

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Re: Origins of Gollum

I'm going to drag this thread back to attention, whether it be willing or no, and hope that someone can answer this question. It is obvious that Gollum was a Stoor living by Anduin; were there any of them left by LotR? If not, which I believe is a correct assumption, what killed them off?

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[Saulotus]

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Re: Origins of Gollum

Dude; check UNFINISHED TALES The hunt for the ring. In there you'll like find that the Stoors like abandoned the settlements in one version and mostly abandoned them in another with the few remaining Stoors slain by the Nazgul when they like went lookin for the ring from info wrung from ol' Gollum there in Mordor.


</p>

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

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Re: Origins of Gollum

Dude, thanks for bringing that to my attention. The answer was right under my nose all the time. Dude.

Usually keeping a lookout over http://pub24.ezboard.com/bmountgundabadMount Gundabad</a> and http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi The Barrowdowns</a> Middle-Earth Discussion Boards</p>

Originally posted by galpsi:
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Origins of Gollum

It has always seemed to me more or less essential that Gollum was a hobbit. He is the real dark threat hanging over Frodo throughout the latter books of the trilogy. Not merely the threat that he might attack or betray Frodo, but the threat that he is Frodo's future, the threat that Frodo would be mastered by the ring. And obviously it is a very real threat.
Tolkien plays a theologically interesting variant on the Christian conception of Christ as the second Adam, the man who must redeem man as Adam had previously damned man. For Frodo is the redemptor of the Ring as Gollum was debased by the Ring before him. Yet Frodo is unable to to redeem the ring, truly It claims him and only Gollum completes the quest, ironically repaying Frodo's earlier mercy.
There are less poetic bases for believing that Gollum was a (degraded) hobbit. Several have been recited above. I find them compelling. My favorite suggestion is near the end of Book 4, Chapter 8. It is the passage where Sam and Frodo fall asleep just before attempting Cirith Ungol. Gollum looks down on them emotionally, seeming to regret his planned treachery. He caresses Frodo's hand and Tolkien says that if the sleepers had seen him they'd have thought that they beheld just an old weary hobbit, shrunken by the years that had carried him far beyond his time, beyond friends and kin, and the fields and streams of youth, an old starved pitiable thing.
Their kinship, their likeness as Ring-bearers, these traits make the relationship between Frodo and Gollum so effective.

</p></STRONG>

Very well put galpsi

[mordor136]

I think gollum might be a hobbit that didn't jouney west and settle in bree. (altogether a tricky or tricksy as gollum would put it subject)

[mordor136]

<STRONG>I think gollum might be a hobbit that didn't jouney west and settle in bree. (altogether a tricky or tricksy as gollum would put it subject)</STRONG>[/QUOTE]

[Mithadan]

Welcome numenorian! Great first post!

[mordor136]

Thanks that has been bothering me for awhile
and I just had to get it out there. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]