Eagles vs Hawks; U.K. vs Napolean & U.S.

[Tirinor]

During the century in which Tolkien was born, England had warred with both France (Napoleon), and the United States (war of 1812). Both of these opponents are represented with an eagle. If I am remembering correctly, Tolkien originally used hawks as the servants of Manwe, not eagles. Perhaps, Tolkien believed the eagle to be the superior bird all along, but due to an ingrained English aversion to Imperial France and those rebellious colonies, Tolkien adjusted his mythology as to not imply undue favor upon those old enemies. And due to the change in world climate during and after the two great wars Tolkien was freed from the old associations and able to use the creature he truly felt fit the part.

In other words: Perhaps, from the viewpoint of Tolkien/England, the U.S. and Imperial France besmirched the image of the eagle, and until their negative influence upon the creature abated, Tolkien reluctantly had to look elsewhere to provide servants for Manwe.

[Tirinor]

or perhaps Tolien was enlightened and became an Auburn fan. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Dain]

If you look at the time which Tolkien lived and wrote, rather than wars at the beginning of the century he was born at the end of, you will find WWI, where both France and the USA were allies in a dreadful struggle that I think influenced him more than the wars of the early 1800s. Of course, the eagle was also an imperial German symbol. I think he just decided eagles were the more magnificent and regal of birds. Which they are. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Nuranar]

Interesting point, Tirinor. Dain is right, at least about World War II though. Eagles were used extensively throughout Nazi Germany. A trend my family has noticed is the similarity between those stylized eagles and the eagles of the Roman empire, at least in movies. It seems that - at least according to the filmmakers - Germany was trying to invoke the images of ancient Rome in support of the Thousand-Year Reich. I wish I could do the research myself on Rome and its connection to Germany.

I concur - probably Tolkien was not unduly influenced by other nations using the eagle as their symbol.

[The Saucepan Man]

Isn't the cockerel the symbolic animal of France?

Of course, Thorondir, Lord of the Roosters might have seemed a little tame ... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Birdland]

Benjamin Franklin truly favored the American turkey as our national symbol, regarding the eagle as a bird "of bad moral character".

The Turkeys are coming!...hmmmmmm

[Manwe Sulimo]

Yeah! Go BC!

Oh, wait....

I don't really think the eagles of imperial France or the US (or the Third Reich) had anything to do with Manwë's eagles. I think he had eagles because they were the biggest, baddest raptors around.

And the connection between Rome and Germany was the Holy Roman Empire, which was the First Reich, or the "Thousand-Year Reich".

[Tirinor]

Just in case I wasn't clear - I don't think Tolkien used eagles because of other countries mascots. I am merely wondering if he originally didn't use eagles because of other countries mascots. Deciding later that such influences shouldn't matter and that he would use what he wanted to use all along.

[Angry Hill Troll]

Benjamin Franklin truly favored the American turkey as our national symbol, regarding the eagle as a bird "of bad moral character".

See how the following rewrite of the description of the summit of Meneltarma in Númenor sounds to you:

No bird ever came there, save only turkeys. If anyone approached the summit, at once three turkeys would appear and alight upon three rocks near to the western edge, but at the times of the Three Prayers they did not descend, remaining in the sky and hovering above the people. They were called the Witnesses of Manwë...

I'm glad Tolkien decided on eagles after all [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Rumil]

The turkeys are coming! The turkeys are coming! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Doesn't sound quite right somehow!

[Mattius]

In other words: Perhaps, from the viewpoint of Tolkien/England, the U.S. and Imperial France besmirched the image of the eagle, and until their negative influence upon the creature abated, Tolkien reluctantly had to look elsewhere to provide servants for Manwe.

Perhaps, but a 'hawk' has never really represented Britain as a national animal/symbol. America uses eagles extremly frequently to represent freedom and the nazis used it a lot to represent the same values coupled with national supremacy. If Tolkien were to use Britain's national animal/symbol then it would have been a lion, which of course CS Lewis had already used in Aslan in his Chronicles of Narnia.

In short I agree with,

I don't really think the eagles of imperial France or the US (or the Third Reich) had anything to do with Manwë's eagles. I think he had eagles because they were the biggest, baddest raptors around.

Well said Manwe Sulimo! The eagle is just about the greatest bird and most respected as it is top of the food chain. Undeniably it represents and has represented many things throughout history but I just believe Tokien choose them because he had so much respect for them.

[Lathriel]

When Tolkein was alive he told people over and over that when he wrote the book it wasn't a paralell to world events but just a story that he wrote. It had nothing to do with this world at all.

[Dain]

I don't think you can say that it had nothing to do with this world, as there is no such thing as a complete work of fiction separated from the world from which it is written. There are lots of "real-world" influences in Tolkien's writing. However, I'm not sure the eagle's were inspired by anything but real eagles...

[Voronwe]

Thorondor (at that time called Thorndor), and the other eagles have a prominent part in The Fall of Gondolin - one of JRRT's earliest Middle Earth writings. Thorondor was also stated to have been a vistitor to the Halls of Manwe in the Lost Tales. So, I think it somewhat doubtful that Tolkien ever changed his opinion of Eagles.

[Tirinor]

Once again, the question is NOT - Why Tolkien chose eagles? It is - Why did he originally choose hawks? This question is based on a small memory of mine that Tolkien's servants of Manwe were originally hawks not eagles.

My question has nothing to do with what animal represents Britain.

Think of it this way: you are a boy growing up in turn of the century England. Your education probably doesn't look favorably on Napolean, or with much respect towards the U.S. You begin writing a story where large majestic birds play a role. Perhaps, although you view the eagle as the best choice, your subconcious doesn't feel right about it due to an ingrained sense of indignation toward the nations that also make use of the eagle. Later, you decide that the eagle is better than the hawk and you use the eagle in spite of your initial reluctance.

Could Tolkien, in his early writings, been influenced by the turn-or-the-century British feelings towards Napolean and the U.S. ?

-Perhaps some of you English folks can offer some insight into the pre-WWI English attitude towards the aforementioned nations.
-Or perhaps those of you with a greater knowledge of Tolkiens early writing and writing decisions could offer a better explaination to why Tolkien first used hawks.
-Or perhaps I dreamt that Tolkien used hawks, and this whole post comes to nothing (I wouldn't put it past me).

[ February 19, 2003: Message edited by: Tirinor ]

[The Saucepan Man]

Hey. Not many of us Brits date back to pre-WWI these days! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Actually, I did study this period of history at school, but I'll be darned if I can remember it sufficiently well to talk with authority now. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

But, the wars between Britain and France/the US would, I think, have been pretty distant memories during JRRT's childhood. More recent enemies were the Russians (Crimea) and, during his childhood, the Boers in South Africa (where, of course, he was born).

Indeed, during JRRT's childhood, us Brits were (surprisingly for us [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] ) drawing closer to the French, with the "Entente Cordiale", while Germany was coming to be seen as the threat. The origins of WWI date back to the turn of the century. And, of course, the symbol of Germany (at that time, as well as later when the Nazis came to power) was, lo and behold, the Eagle.

So, perhaps it was the association between the Eagle and Germany that put him off using it at first. But then, if that sort of thing concerned him, why would he be happy to use the Eagle later on, while it was still being used as a symbol by the Nazis?

Oh yes. And I was right. The French animal symbol is the Rooster. The Eagle was, I think, specific to Napoleon (Napoleon I, that is). Here is an extract from the President of the French Republic's web-site:

It returned to favour from 1830 onwards. In an ordinance of July 30, 1830, the Gallic rooster had to figure on the buttons of the uniforms of the National Guard and surmount the Guard's colours.
Napoleon III naturally viewed the rooster with disfavour, but it virtually became an official symbol of the Third Republic: the wrought-iron gates of the Elysée Palace, erected at the end of the 19th century, feature a rooster, as did the gold coin struck in 1899. During word war I, the French rooster stood in opposition to the German eagle.

So, since the French were allies, we could have had Foghorn Thoronhorn: "Now wait, I say, now wait a minute there, Hurin". [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Tirinor]

Thanks, Saucepan Man.

So it seems that a British boy from 1900 would have no particular reason to think ill of France or the U.S. to the degree that he would disfavor the eagle. And, thereby, he would not refrain from useing eagles in a heroic fashion in his later writings due to that reason.

It must have had something to do with a favorite football (soccer) team then?

[The Saucepan Man]

It must have had something to do with a favorite football (soccer) team then?

Well that would be Crystal Palace (the Eagles). [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Tirinor]

Crysal Palace, eh?

Perhaps they had a string of embarrassing years and the young proffessor refused any association with the team. But, Crystal Palace rebuilds! they win! Pride is restored! Woo yoo! And the eagles take back their rightful place in the mythology.

The hawks, poor devils (if they even exist), were just a fling, a temporary and inadequate substitute. They lured him for a season, but never captured his heart.