paths of the dead...

[FingolfintheBold]

I was wondering if anyone had any theories about what was behind the door in the paths of the Dead; the one that Baldor's skeleton was clawing at. I've heard it could have been a Numenorian treasure trove or something like that, but I've never seen any of Tolkien's writings that talk about it. Is the Door just meant to be a mystery in Tolkien's world?

I can't recall from any of my readings that it was anything other than a place that the Dead were sent to when Isildur put the curse on them. It's no more than an underground (undermountain i should say) tunnel/passage that leads from Dunharrow to the other side of the White mountains.

I may be wrong on this though...

[Failivrin]

i thought Baldor went to the paths of the dead just to pass through it? presumably the door he was clawing at lead to either a further part of the passage or the way out and as he wasn't the heir of Isildur he couldn't get through.

[Knight of Gondor]

I always wondered that too. I don't know the history behind the Paths, and Dunharrow and all that. (I've got history books on my CHRISTmas list, though) I always thought it would be something more significant than just a treasure room or something...

[Gurthang]

Obviously it was something more. The people who made the paths had a reason for a door. I mean, who would make a door that lead nowhere in a place that housed dead people. What kind of sick mind would lay such a trap....

[Lindril Arvilya]

*snicker snicker* What a great idea.... Well, I would.....

Lindril (what?) Arvilya

[Finwe]

A sick person like me would build a door that lead to nowhere but a bunch of dead people! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

The door probably led to the way out of the Paths of the Dead. Baldor probably got in, but realized that he couldn't get out, and as a result, went completely nutters, and started clawing at the door. We all know the rest of the story.

As for the Numenorean treasure trove theory, why would Isildur leave treasure with people who betrayed him, and were cursed by him? Only a lunatic would do that. Then again, Isildur had quite a few lunatic tendencies.

[Jjudvven]

I have always been interested in that passage. I also could not figure out why he wanted to get through that door so badly. Treasure? Doubtful. My theory was that perhaps he was hemmed about by the dead and the door was the only way of escape that he could see, so he attempted to claw his way through in order to get away and safe his own life. It's such an interesting part, for me at least. Just weird feeling.

[Castamir]

That was already said in a previous post. Try reading the whole thing before you submit a post

[Marroc Underhill]

I believe he thought it was the way out, and, fearing the dead were aware of his presence, tried to get throught nullthat door. He most likely went mad and clawed at the door until he finally died of starvation. In other words the classic case of fright.

[doug*platypus]

It's probably like Marcellus Wallace's briefcase in Pulp Fiction. What is behind the door is whatever the reader wants to be behind there. I think it's very likely that Tolkien never decided what was there.

The big question is, was Baldor trying to get in to what was there, or trying to get out away from the Dead Men? If he was trying to get out he went the wrong way. Aragorn manages to get in and out without using the door. Or perhaps the Dead Men surrounded Baldor, forcing him towards the door that he could not open.

There's definitely some treasure in there somewhere. I remember Aragorn telling the spirits of the dead that he was not there to rob them, or something like that.

[Finwe]

The only reason that Aragorn managed to find his way out of that place was that he was the Heir of Isildur. Since Baldor wasn't, he became confused and rather frightened of the place, and probably kept wandering until he came upon the door and of course couldn't open it. That was how he died, of starvation, thirst, and probably fear. Aragorn got through because it was his birthright to do so, and thus, wasn't affected by fear or confusion the way Baldor was. Besides, Baldor's intentions in the first place were all wrong. He went in on a drunken boast. That isn't the best way to endear yourself to dark spirits. Aragorn wanted to save Minas Tirith, and thus, his pure intentions helped speed him on his way.

[Sharkû]

In Vinyar Tengwar #42 various essays and notes on nomenclature of Gondor made by Tolkien are published. In the note to the _Halifirien_ essay, he wrote:

"The special horror of the closed door before which the skeleton of Baldor was found was probably due to the fact that the door was the entrance to an evil temple hall [of the same Men of Darkness to which the Oathbreakers presumably belonged - Sharkû] to which Baldor had come, probably without opposition up to that point. But the door was shut in his face, and enemies that had followed him silently came up and broke his legs and left him to die in the darkness, unable to find any way out."

Even though this very essay was abandoned and apparently marked for deletion, the fact given in this note is most likely still valid, perfectly solving the mystery what lay behind the door.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Thank you very much, Sharkû, for sharing this text with us [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

After reading it I have another question: Are the enemies that followed Baldor alive, maybe descendants of the Oathbreakers that were guarding the temple against intruders?

[Gurthang]

I don't think that any of them were alive. They weren't really dead either, they were just spirits. They could do harm to mortals, but could not rest in full death until they fufilled their oaths. In essence, they were conditional wraiths.

[Finwe]

If they had been alive, wouldn't there have been signs of a struggle? I'm sure that Baldor's first instinct would have been to fight back, and maybe, just maybe, he could have killed one. After all, we know that he did have his sword with him. If his enemies had been alive, then at least another skeleton would have been found with him, that of the enemy (or two) that he managed to kill.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

You are right, Finwe, you have convinced me [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. The lack of signs of fight is a good reason against the idea of them being alive. I always thought that the dead couldn't harm people physically, that they could only cause fear; but I was wrong, because they broke Baldor's legs [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

[Olorin_TLA]

Confused, and starved to death? Unlikely...his body is found clawing at the Door, trying to escape from something. You don't claw at a door for days and days until slowly you starve, the death he died would have been sudden. I think he was, as others have said, surrounded, and then as he tried to escape, killed, by fear, or physically, as the note by JRRT says.

[Lathriel]

Who WOULDN'T escape from dead people or try to desperatly get away. For one a dead person is not really a nice person to look at and they might smell slightly rotten too!

[Knight of Gondor]

know that he did have his sword with him.

If I remember correctly, it was broken, and the door notched. Baldor probably didn't/couldn't give battle to those that followed him, but in his terror he attempted to break down the door. I don't know too much about his history and whatnot, but it would seem that terror drove him to his death - perhaps a heart attack?

[Finwe]

Hmm... a heart attack might have done it. I still think that if Baldor had any concrete, living enemies around him, there would have been more signs of a struggle. Somehow, the idea of a man who was born and bred to fight, suddenly quailing and turning into a gibbering wreck at the sight of other living, breathing warriors, just doesn't make sense to me.