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08-30-2023, 08:02 AM | #1 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 245
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Concerning the hunt, I agree with Findegil that the hunt still works.
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08-30-2023, 12:40 PM | #2 | ||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 279
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About the hunt: while I'm not sure about its relevance in the later version, I still think the hunt in itself is a nice piece of worldbuilding, which, even if we cut it out from the ruin of Doriath, should be mentioned somewhere.
Also, Findegil, I see on the private forum that you decided to keep the part where Thingol offers the outlaws a share of the treasure - but given what we've seen in 'Concerning... The Hoard', I can't help but disagree. While the new version is pretty condensed, I think that the gist of it is that the outlaws didn't just want a few trinkets here and there: they claimed the entire hoard, as did Thingol! Quote:
Additionally, I think we should replace all the references to Thingol's obsession with gold in The Nauglafring with silver (as per 'Concerning'): such as references to a helm of gold, a hilt of gold, golden trappings for his steed, etc. I also have a problem with this line: Quote:
It's true that in the 'Concerning' there is this line: Quote:
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Last edited by Arvegil145; 08-30-2023 at 01:12 PM. |
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08-30-2023, 12:57 PM | #3 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 279
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Actually, now that I think about it, there might be a problem with the idea of Thingol dying in Menegroth - the problem being Melian of course (unless we go with the 'Melian abandoned Thingol' interpretation of the Girdle's disappearance).
Let's say that we do combine the hunt with 'Concerning', a plausible sequence of events might go like this: 1) Thingol and his retinue are ambushed somewhere in Doriath 2) Most of his warriors perish 3) Thingol and the remaining warriors retreat to Menegroth 4) Thingol makes a final stand there, and is killed But...where is Melian in all of this? She is, after all, a powerful entity, a Maia. Surely she could've helped somehow (if she wanted to)?
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08-30-2023, 07:56 PM | #4 | ||||||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Moreover, I think the statement as written simply can't be technically correct. It says that the Dwarves (i.e. as a whole) have drawn more nigh in friendship to the kin of Melko than to the Elves. Yet, for all that there is clearly some antipathy between Elves and Dwarves, we have many examples of them peacefully coexisting in later ages and little in the way of actual violence between them. On the other hand, we have only sporadic hints of Dwarves in later ages actually allying with Sauron or the other former followers of Morgoth, and we have plenty of violence between them, even with a special enmity between Dwarves and Orcs (followers of Morgoth). Quote:
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Which is all to say that despite my reluctance to keep the hunt, I don't see that CtH presents any difficulties for it from a sequence-of-events perspective. I had also forgotten that the hunt was still present in Q. So I'm now less opposed to retaining it. Quote:
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08-31-2023, 03:32 AM | #5 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,694
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RD-EX-54: I am not adamnat on this. If you really think it is out of line here, we can skip it.
The Hunt: The death of Thingol is easier to be understood with the hunt included: If he is huntig, he is outside his strong hold, he is away from most of his warriors, he is away from Melian. Beside that the only details that we have about his death and how the curse of Mîm took a part in it, are from an outside place, not from inside Menegroth (even so we know that the caves had a rebuild naturalistic look). As the Hunt is never really contradicted, but only leftout possibly due to compression, I think the above mentioned reason might be enough to keep the hunt. Arvegil145: Your sequence can work, but I don't see evidence to incould it in our text. RD-SL-08: Okay, if the outlaws are unable to compromise, what about this edditing: Quote:
{gold}[silver]: You think that the complete hoard of Nargothrond should be more silver than gold? That would make sense in many places in our text. But in the end the Ascar is named 'Goldenbed' not 'Silverbed'. So gold has to remain ar considerable part of the hoard. About the hunting down of the Petty-Dwarves as grievance for the Dwarves of Nogrod: I agree fully to Aiwendil here. It is one thing to have a feud among your own people, but if some one from outside does kill them is another matter. And anyhow it is Tolkien telling us about this in the same mix of interrests (First pushing the Petty-Dwarves out of Ered luin, than the Grey-Elves hunting Petty-Dwarves, the Dwarves of Ered Luin builing up good buisness with the Grey-Elves and helping Felagund to build Nargothrond and by that pushing the Petty-Dwarves out of their home, and then at last searching for some propaganda-reason to fight with Thingol, when the real intention is just to get the Hoard.) The same goes for the violent death of Mîm. It is just propaganda for Naugladur. And in thi scase it can even be seen easily: Mîm was killed and robbed by Húrin and his Men, but the revenge that Naugladur plans is on Thingol. By the way: Since we hear now that Mîm was not of the kin of Nogrod, but we now that the Petty-Dwarves were driven from the mansions in the Ered Luin, we can now be sure that it was from Belegost that they had come. We could guess that before, since the news of Mîm's death reached Belegost first, but hear we have now a confirmation. Respectfully Findegil |
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08-31-2023, 04:29 AM | #6 | |||||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 279
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As to the Hunt, while I still lean toward the idea that Thingol died in Menegroth (as per an interpretation of 'Concerning'), I'm fine either way. Quote:
But again, I'm fine with either interpretation. Quote:
My problem was that in The Nauglafring, Tinwelint's obsession was with gold, not silver; and in the 'Concerning' it is the other way around (cf. the two silver thrones for himself and Melian, and the Nauglamir being made of silver - paralleling Thranduil in The Hobbit). With that in mind, whatever trinkets made for Tinwelint in TN (i.e. gold helm, gold hilt, etc.) should be changed to 'silver', to reflect the thematic change in the 'Concerning'. Quote:
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In the 'Concerning', both the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost took part in the invasion of Doriath: Quote:
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P.S. The idea that it was only the Dwarves of Nogrod that attacked Doriath comes from 'Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn', right? But that text was written in the '50s, while 'Concerning... The Hoard' dates from c. 1964. Is there any text later than 'Concerning... The Hoard' that has only the Dwarves of Nogrod take part in the invasion?
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08-31-2023, 05:42 AM | #7 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 279
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There's an interesting comment by Hammond and Scull, in regards to 'Concerning... The Hoard', from lotrplaza.com:
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It seems that either Hammond and Scull misremembered the text, or, more intriguingly, came to a different conclusion regarding the death of Thingol. The full quote is found on TG: https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Conc...27The_Hoard%27
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