The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-17-2016, 01:26 PM   #1
Barrel-rider
Pile O'Bones
 
Barrel-rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: End of the Bag, yet no bag went over me.
Posts: 13
Barrel-rider has just left Hobbiton.
White Tree Third Dark Lord, or Melkor's Return?

I've heard it said that, according to prophecy, before the Battle of Battles, Melkor was to return.

I've wondered myself if this was meant to be taken literally, or metaphorically. In other words, whether or not Melkor would return as the Melkor we all know and despise, or in a new body, as a third and final Dark Lord.

But when I think about it, Melkor never really left, as in his influence was present all throughout Middle Earth history.

So, what do you guys think? Metaphor, or literal?
__________________
Three rings for the Elven-kings munchin' on rye, Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their nightly drinks alone, nine for Mortal "Men" doomed to cry, one for the Barrel lord on his barrel-y throne in the land of hoarders where the fellows cry.
Barrel-rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2016, 02:34 PM   #2
Morthoron
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
 
Morthoron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,246
Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
He was tucked away behind the Door of Night. I don't see him coming out with a new outfit, unless they allow online shopping up there.
__________________
Please visit my newly resurrected blog...The Dark Elf File...a slightly skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
Morthoron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2016, 03:44 PM   #3
Mithadan
Spirit of Mist
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 2,887
Mithadan has been trapped in the Barrow!
It is unclear whether the Prophecy of Mandos survived Tolkien's revisions to the Silmarillion. If I recall, later versions did not include it. He may have rejected it in favor of his view that Middle Earth merged into the "Primary World" (the Age(s) of Man) following the end of the Third Age.

His conception of the Prophecy was that at some point the Valar would become weary of the world and relax their vigilance, permitting Morgoth to re-enter Arda. The Final Battle would follow after which the world would be remade. Some versions had Turin slaying Morgoth if I recall.

Assuming that the Prophecy remains part of the mythos, Morgoth would return in his own body. Some earlier writings had Morgoth being executed following his capture after the fall of Angband. Tolkien rejected this idea for a few reasons. First, he felt that it was not in the nature of the Valar to execute him. Second, Morgoth's death was inconsistent with his later conception of the Valar as perpetual and not able to be "slain." They can be weakened to the point where they cannot construct a physical body, but their spirit would remain. The final iteration was that Morgoth was physically bound with Angainor and expelled into the void. So he had a body for what it's worth.
__________________
That which once was shall be again!
Mithadan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2016, 05:07 PM   #4
Nerwen
Wisest of the Noldor
 
Nerwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ
Posts: 6,222
Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Send a message via Skype™ to Nerwen
Why would returning with a new body make him a "third dark lord", anyway?
__________________
"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo.
Nerwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2016, 06:06 PM   #5
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 7,265
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithadan View Post
Assuming that the Prophecy remains part of the mythos, Morgoth would return in his own body. Some earlier writings had Morgoth being executed following his capture after the fall of Angband. Tolkien rejected this idea for a few reasons. First, he felt that it was not in the nature of the Valar to execute him. Second, Morgoth's death was inconsistent with his later conception of the Valar as perpetual and not able to be "slain." They can be weakened to the point where they cannot construct a physical body, but their spirit would remain. The final iteration was that Morgoth was physically bound with Angainor and expelled into the void. So he had a body for what it's worth.
This is fairly in line with Christianity also, in which the Book of Revelation tells of a period when Satan will be released from Hell and allowed to return, after being bound.

Quote:
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison. And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:7,8 KJV

I wonder if Tolkien's ideas there were colored by Revelation.
Satan is to be defeated by direct intervention from God, though as Mithadan notes the Second Prophesy may have had Túrin being the destroyer of Morgoth.
It would have been nice to see Túrin getting the chance to repay his tormentor, and save Arda in the bargain.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2016, 03:34 AM   #6
Zigûr
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Zigûr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 671
Zigûr is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Zigûr is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithadan View Post
Some earlier writings had Morgoth being executed following his capture after the fall of Angband. Tolkien rejected this idea for a few reasons. First, he felt that it was not in the nature of the Valar to execute him. Second, Morgoth's death was inconsistent with his later conception of the Valar as perpetual and not able to be "slain." They can be weakened to the point where they cannot construct a physical body, but their spirit would remain. The final iteration was that Morgoth was physically bound with Angainor and expelled into the void. So he had a body for what it's worth.
In "Myths Transformed" the "execution of Morgoth" is still present:
Quote:
He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and executed: that is killed like one of the Incarnates.
That's a fairly late account, isn't it? Late Fifties?
But I might be mistaking your meaning; in the early conceptions of the execution you're talking about, is the idea that Morgoth simply "died" and that was all that needed to be done? By contrast, in this later account it seems more like the "killing" meant the destruction (or rendering inoperable) of his manifested physical body, after which his fëa was expelled to the void (somehow still bound with the chain?)
__________________
"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir."
"On foot?" cried Éomer.
Zigûr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2016, 07:20 AM   #7
Galin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 897
Galin has been trapped in the Barrow!
I think the Last Battle (and so on) survived in a sense... as in a "Ragnarokian" end of sorts, but that the Second Prophecy of Mandos did not survive.

Quote:
"The myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion is of Numenorean origin(19); it is clearly made by Men, though Men acquainted with Elvish tradition."

JRRT

(19) "... in so far as the reference is to any actual written text, this is the conclusion of QS (...), the Prophecy of Mandos."

CJRT

Morgoth's Ring, Author's note 7, Notes on the Commentary, Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth. Note 19, Christopher Tolkien
It makes sense to me that Mandos no longer delivers "the end" as prophecy, but Men have myths about it, and one in which Turin returns from the Doom of Men at the ending of the World (and possibly Beren Camlost does something -- see the cursory corrections to the end of LQS in the War of the Jewels).

That said, in a late text (see note 17, The Problem of Ros, The Peoples of Middle-Earth) a prophecy is given to Andreth, the Wise woman (still not Mandos of course), that Turin will return from the dead before his final departure, and slay Ancalagon the Black... although according to Christopher Tolkien, this refers to the Last Battle at the end of the Elder Days, not a last battle at the end of days... and here it is noted, before Turin's final departure.

Given this late muddle, while I think there was going to be some mannish end-type myth here, I'm not sure about all the details. Yet if a Mannish myth, why not have Turin (a man of course) come back and deal with Morgoth...

... I mean, such a saying is not going to be easy to disprove anyway
Galin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2016, 09:16 AM   #8
Mithadan
Spirit of Mist
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 2,887
Mithadan has been trapped in the Barrow!
This post is made at the risk of disappearing down the rabbit hole of "canonicity."

Myths Transformed is a fascinating section of HoME. It gives insight into Tolkien's creative process and his self-doubt regarding how previously well-established portions of his mythos fit within the whole as well as with the Primary World. That said, Myths Transformed must be taken with a grain of salt. Much of the material presented is speculative and their is no indication that it represents JRT's final formulation of how the Silmarillion might be rewritten despite the late date of the writings. Much of the material presented represents a significant departure from his prior conceptions and simply do not align with the Mythos. By way of examples, his "round earth" version of the history of Middle Earth leaves unexplained whether the tale of the Two Trees can be preserved (placing in doubt the origin and nature of the Silmarils themselves). The recasting of Orcs as corrupted men rather than Elves would require a significant revision of the time table of the First Age. His musings regarding whether the tales can be portrayed as a mannish (read Numenorean) distortion of Elvish legend would have significantly impacted the "believability" of the Mythos, and its presentation as a history. As commented above, the "execution" of Morgoth is inconsistent with JRRT's conceptions of the nature of the Valar and their nature.

The observation that the Prophecy of Mandos aligns with the biblical version of apocalypse is an apt observation, but draws into question Tolkien's professed dislike of allegory.

Just as another observation, the Prophecy of Mandos may also be affiliated with the very early legend of the Elvish "Faring Forth" found in Lost Tales. The relationship is not direct, but the concepts seem to potentially be linked.
__________________
That which once was shall be again!
Mithadan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2016, 07:58 AM   #9
Barrel-rider
Pile O'Bones
 
Barrel-rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: End of the Bag, yet no bag went over me.
Posts: 13
Barrel-rider has just left Hobbiton.
White Tree In reply to Nerwen

Well, a new body would make him at least for a while unrecognizable.
__________________
Three rings for the Elven-kings munchin' on rye, Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their nightly drinks alone, nine for Mortal "Men" doomed to cry, one for the Barrel lord on his barrel-y throne in the land of hoarders where the fellows cry.
Barrel-rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2016, 08:57 AM   #10
Morthoron
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
 
Morthoron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,246
Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrel-rider View Post
Well, a new body would make him at least for a while unrecognizable.
Hmmm...Sauron may have been able to fool a few Noldor with his Annatar glam look, but the more percipient Elves figured him out, or at least got such a bad vibe as to turn him away. But if we're talking about the Valar and Maiar, I don't think Morgoth would hoodwink any of them. Besides, if I recollect correctly, I think Morgoth had expended so much of his energy into corrupting Arda that he was no longer able to disguise what he'd become.
__________________
Please visit my newly resurrected blog...The Dark Elf File...a slightly skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
Morthoron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2016, 09:24 AM   #11
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 7,265
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
My impression is that Morgoth's return would not be a covert occurrence. Rather, an open, defiant call to all evil beings to join him in conquering the 'pretenders' in Valinor and restoring Arda's rightful ruler to his throne.
At least that's my epic perception of it.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2016, 11:58 AM   #12
Galin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 897
Galin has been trapped in the Barrow!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithadan View Post
(...) Much of the material presented represents a significant departure from his prior conceptions and simply do not align with the Mythos. By way of examples, his "round earth" version of the history of Middle Earth leaves unexplained whether the tale of the Two Trees can be preserved (placing in doubt the origin and nature of the Silmarils themselves).
As I read these texts, the Trees would still radiate an unsullied light, greater than that of the Sun, ultimately only preserved in the Silmarils.


Quote:
His musings regarding whether the tales can be portrayed as a mannish (read Numenorean) distortion of Elvish legend would have significantly impacted the "believability" of the Mythos, and its presentation as a history.
Well, for those who haven't tracked them down, there are late texts, in general agreement about the character of Quenta Silmarillion as a mostly Mannish affair, outside of Myths Transformed too, and Tolkien had even begun publishing the "Numenorean element" in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil.

Quote:
"In origin a "nonsense rhyme", it is in the Rivendell version found transformed and applied, somewhat incongruously, to the High-Elvish and Numenorean legends of Erarendil."

"No. 14 also depends upon the lore of Rivendell, Elvish and Numenorean, concerning the heroic days at the end of the First Age; it seems to contain echoes of the Numenorean tale of Turin and Mim the Dwarf."
I don't see why variations due to perspective, and even a measure of purposed confusion, need be considered a weakness. I find it a strength rather, especially for the Legendarium as a whole. Of course some notions would be cast in doubt, like the "truth" of the Sun's making for example, but this notable shift in authorship and transmission allowed Tolkien to preserve the dramatic impact and beauty of ideas from his older mythology. In my opinion, Tolkien's solution falls in line with his later comments on The Drowning of Anadune (DA)...


Quote:
"Contains very old version (in Adunaic) which is good -- in so far as it is just as much different (in inclusion and omission and emphasis) as would be probable in the supposed case:

A) Mannish tradition
B) Elvish tradition
C) Mixed Dunedanic tradition
"Which is good" despite that DA contains purposed confusions when compared to other traditions, including relating the Western Elves perspective that the World was always round, and an interesting slant concerning the "Straight Road". There's an art to creating a legendarium which includes diverse authorship and perspective, which can lend believability in another sense. I don't think Tolkien was going to provide two traditions of QS, and I don't think he needed to finish a more fully "Elvish" version. To my mind he could pepper QS with touches like the "Dome of Varda", which JRRT did take from Myths Transformed and inject into the Later Quenta Silmarillion proper -- he doesn't really explain the Dome in LQS itself, in detail, why it exists and so on, but it's there. It crept in somehow, from some Elvish source (living or on paper). And an already existing sun, for instance, could be handled in other, more purely Elvish texts, like The Awakening of the Quendi (in which the Sun exists before the Elves awaken), itself a text that might be "challenged" in that it's "only" an Elvish fairy tale filled with counting lore.

This, I think, is part of Tolkien's genius! And in my opinion this is where the legendarium was headed, already hinted at in the author-published ATB, and found in a number of late texts, all in general agreement. Christopher Tolkien wrote:

Quote:
"It is remarkable that he never at this time seems to have felt that what he said in this present note [Myths Transformed, text I] provided a resolution of the problems that he believed to exist."

Christopher Tolkien
Why "remarkable"? Because the answer was seemingly "right there" at this time?

Later, I think, Tolkien did feel it
Galin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2016, 07:09 PM   #13
Zigûr
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Zigûr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 671
Zigûr is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Zigûr is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inziladun View Post
My impression is that Morgoth's return would not be a covert occurrence. Rather, an open, defiant call to all evil beings to join him in conquering the 'pretenders' in Valinor and restoring Arda's rightful ruler to his throne.
At least that's my epic perception of it.
Mine as well. Given that the prophecy is all about him going around destroying heavenly bodies and invading Valinor, I always pictured him returning in dread and majesty, as he had appeared in ancient days.
__________________
"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir."
"On foot?" cried Éomer.
Zigûr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2017, 12:32 AM   #14
Ivriniel
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Ivriniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 407
Ivriniel has just left Hobbiton.
My Favourite Topic

This is my favourite topic. I have taken on board the premise that the Second Prophesy of Mandos was not taken through to Tolkien's death in overt notes. I doubt, however, that he did not have something in mind. The way he was morphing the Tale of Celeborn and Galadriel, was one of his focal points right until the end.

I have two competing renditions of a Remaking and correcting the Marring of Arda


1. the standard: Feanor assists Yavanna in a repentance, gathering up the Jewells in a rekindling.

However, I've a problem. Valar cannot be slain. It's unclear what the point of Tulkas was on about. And the redemptive themes in the House of Hurin. And then there's the Orc's spirits, the Dwarves and a great deal of missing emphases about what the heck happens in the second Making.

2. By Inference. It's a Vanity Inversion theory, in the architecture of *inference*. That is the events in the standard works are seen 'from within Ea' and bound by Vanity of the Valar, Elves and Men and so, interpretations are terribly literal.

I wonder about a heart STEALTH SANCTIONED by Eru and the place of MERCY for Sauron and Melkor and a REWORING of their placement, by reinterpreting the Music of the Ainur.

I'll go into details if anyone shows interest in the materials I can cite to run a parallel view.
__________________
A call to my lost pals. Dine, Orcy_The_Green_Wonder, Droga, Lady Rolindin. Gellion, Thasis, Tenzhi. I was Silmarien Aldalome. Candlekeep. WotC. Can anyone help?
Ivriniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:22 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.