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Old 09-18-2002, 06:13 PM   #121
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Well, Khelek did seem a bit overcome with the beauty of the morning - and so entranced by it, nothing else filtered in to him!!

LOL! Preppy! Khelek in Tommy Hilfiger!

BTW - where are you bound once the quest is over - are you going West?

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]
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Old 09-18-2002, 06:34 PM   #122
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Well, what do you expect him to do? Most of his friends and kin are most likely in the West by now. Besides, staying in Middle-earth would seem like impossible to him after this. Otherwise he'd spend every single freakin minute in the Shire or the Havens. If it isn't the West, then's it's off to the Shire! No way does he want to spend another night in Thranduil's realm!
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Old 09-18-2002, 11:39 PM   #123
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You know --we may just have a ghost ship coming back from the Third Age. If all the Elven kind head West (and Mith gets a ticket to Aman for his brave deeds), and the hobbits go their way, including Gandalf to the Third Age, and I manage to get Bird grandfathered in as a "hobbit-friend", the ship will be floating about Middle-earth with no one on it. How spooky!! sharon
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Old 09-19-2002, 10:02 AM   #124
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Ghost ship! I think not!

Pio has an awakened thirst for life on the tumultuous seas of Arda. I don't think she'll be going straight back to the West - barring, of course, another spear to the back!
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Old 09-19-2002, 05:50 PM   #125
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Life on the Sea... hey, that doesn't sound so bad. Except when you're in a foul mood, there's really no place you can go for privacy unless you lock yourself into your own cabin, or something!

If Angara's that mad, I do not want to know how mad Levanto's going to be. Or maybe he might understand and only push Mithadan into the Sea. Or just slightly disappointed.

And where is Veritas' player? Gone quite a long time, or still playing catch-up.
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Old 09-20-2002, 05:33 AM   #126
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I can't wait for this to be a fanfiction. I think it's gonna be the best one there ever was. I was sitting here reading the story and was completely moved. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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Old 09-20-2002, 06:31 AM   #127
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Somewhere you will have to archive or set aside the discussion thread to provide some cleanings for future scholars. Certainly some of the funniest interactions are here. Birdie, along with the Book Club and the cat, you can take up gardening. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

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Old 09-20-2002, 01:42 PM   #128
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Levanto is more gracious than the moth-eaten wyrm!!!! He has stepped aside.

As to life on the sea, it's not so confining if you'll learn to swim. As I recall, the oarni quite adored Khelek! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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Old 09-20-2002, 04:24 PM   #129
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Some thoughts on where the story is going:

First, I believe we have resolved the romantic angst occuring between the Elf and the Man. So we can now focus on the main part of the story with them as an accepted 'couple' now. (There is, of course, the question of the dragon and her attitude for Pio to deal with!) [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I don't know how much we can draw Sauron into this story. We cannot have his ships running about looking for dragons along the coast - especially any time near the approach of the Telerin fleet. I can't see the Teleri wanting a pitched battle with Sauron's fleet. How would that happen anyway without Him knowing then exactly where we were and what was planned. A single report of 20 Elven ships would bring his full force upon us. These are 'spy' ships you speak of and would certainly be in direct contact with Sauron.

I don't think he has his attention on Eru's mount, does he? At least not the caves beneath it. His center of worship is at the top of the mountain, isn't it?

Ancalimon, it seems to me, must not tip his hand to Sauron in any way. Any knowledge of the presence of another maia would surely put Sauron's suspicions into overdrive.

If we do decide to do something along these lines - it should be done very carefully, otherwise our rescue plans will seem completely implausible and impossible.

What do you think?
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Old 09-20-2002, 05:33 PM   #130
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* Khelek winces *

No, I don't think he'd want to have another brush with them again...

And as for Sauron, our little chess piece, a fleet of Teleri ships wouldn't be loaded for battle. If Sauron were aware, his mighty 'navy' would crush them. I suppose Mithadan's post clears that a bit, but as for Sauron not noticing... that would be quite hard. No Elf is supposed to be around Numenor at this time, and if he suddenly senses Elves around, he'd be quite suspicious. Should we be waiting on shore, perhaps? Any spy ships would either have to go the long way around or go through us. The long way may take quite a while and may just give us enough time to time-shift ere the Wrath of the Valar engulfs Numenor.

Let's get some flamethrowers! Sorry, that came out of nowhere...

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Old 09-20-2002, 07:32 PM   #131
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I've included a copy of the memo which I sent to Pio concerning the plot. As I said below, I may be the only one with these concerns. But I do feel that the suspense lacks a sharp edge at this point. We seem to know all the pieces in the puzzle, and we're just waiting for them to play out.

I can see the problem about the Elven ships. But how far out from Numenor are we, and how far out would the spy ships go searching for a single dragon? Wouldn't they more likely stay closer to shore? Indeed, they would probably be searching on land as well? How extensive were the sources available to Sauron at this point, with the fleet itself gone?

As I said below, I will edit out Sauron's awareness and leave the dragon's fall in as a backlash to push the dragon into the sea if people think this is best.

I guess I want more of a sense of suspense than we have now--the feeling that gee, we may make it or we may not. We've dotted every "i" and crossed every "t". We planned every maneuver to perfection.And I guess I'm feeling that nothing new or different is going to happen, so we're probably going to win. It's likely for example that we outnumber the tomb guards. (No one said there were hoards of them!)

Sauron can't come directly against us because of the hobbits, but Angara is a loose card. If this won't work, is there another way to get it i.e. the sense of going up against something, of something threatening us? Or perhaps everyone else thinks we should stick strictly with the planned rescue and fighting the tomb guards? In which case I should definitely edit.
_____________________________________________


Pio---If you feel Sauron's awareness of Angara won't work, I will delete (probably on Monday) and leave only the bit about the backlash throwing the dragon into the drink. But please read this first, and tell me what you think.

I do wonder if we are not too "flat" and predictable going into the rescue. There's no sense of having a real enemy coming against us except for the angst in our own heads. In most stories, you have some sense of two sides preparing for a contest. Since the hobbits and our enemy have been so hidden, we don't have that tension in the story. We've also had relatively little prior physical combat in the story to fuel this sense of tension.

If we're coming with a considerable fleet of Elven ships, would the guards at the tombs realistically pose a major threat? After all, Turo and Idril made it in to rescue the Stoors with only one vessel. There's no sense in the story of the tomb guards or anyone else making special preparations against us. I guess I feel there should be more of a sense of conflict, us coming against someone who's also consciously coming against us, rather than simply making a plan and carrying it out, and killing a large number of guards along the way.

Perhaps I'm wrong in this. But if Sauron's attention is not on Eru's mount, as you suggested in the memo, then this is even more the case.---no strong sense that we're going up against a real force of evil who is aware of us and is trying to eliminate us.

If there were 2-3 spy ships, we would encounter them in the rescue and immediately take them out. Conceivably, they could even be encountered on our way out of the tombs as we flee. Sauron would have no idea where along the coast the dragon would be--his forces would be spread out. As far as the hobbrim rescue, there's no problem returning to the ship without Sauron knowing. The storm has given us our protection. We knock out one ship and then come back to the Star immediately. So the only time Sauron would know anything would be the final encounter with the 2-3 spy ships at the actual rescue. And then it's too late.

If this won't work, is there another way to inject more of a sense of a "real" enemy in the story? The forces of evil are so distant that I'm having trouble sensing them. Perhaps I am the only one who feels this way? In that case, we should probably drop it and go as originally planned..

Let me know, and I'll edit accordingly, but probably not till Monday.

sharon.

[ September 20, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]
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Old 09-20-2002, 08:04 PM   #132
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Yay!! Pio and Mith are staying together!!
*sniff* I love happy endings *sniff* They make me cry.... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Anyway...... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

We have to have some kind of an enemy to deal with and one that will pose some kind of a threat without interfereing with Tolkien's original story. We need conflict in these last parts because we're working up to a climax. If the rescue goes smoothly and totally acording to plan then the end of the story won't seem suspencefull at all and very predictable.

As long as noone goes overboard I think taking some chances in the plot wouldn't hurt.
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Old 09-20-2002, 08:07 PM   #133
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How about the rescue does go off flawlessly-- but with an odd sense of foreboding-- and then as we are regathering & getting ready for The Jump, out comes Sauron's fleet. We can't jump to hypertime until we have everybody back on board, and (list of people) are missing. I've got a couple candidates for "missing", other folks can come swimming too.

We skirmish a couple of Sauron's lead ships; fortunately he's back in the rearguard (or whatever.)

THen the jump to hypertime also becomes difficult, because of Sauron's oppressive presence, it's hard for Pio to pull everybody together. The fleet scatters through time, and only half of them make it to (the targetted time.) We take another week finding lost ships with the crystal. (or something.) We lose a few: a few ships, a few hobbits, a few elves.
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Old 09-20-2002, 09:46 PM   #134
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One of my objections to this, which I'm sure if I thought about it longer I could get around it, is that I just don't feel the Teleri have signed on for a major battle. Just doesn't feel right to me. That is why the planning has been so careful (at least by Pio who feels responsible for having signed them on), so as to avoid this possibility as much as we can.

If we do decide to go this route, then give me a little time to figure out how to give them the advantage, and arm the freakin' elves to the teeth.
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Old 09-20-2002, 09:56 PM   #135
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Like I said, it's most likely Telerin ships won't be armed. * points this out rather smugly * They have no need for arms where they live. Heck, they never made weapons till old Morgoth told the Noldor to.

And as for Sauron, we're going to have to change a lot of our posts after what Child has written then. Otherwise, Sauron's aware of us, he's coming in to kill us, we're toast, unless for some strange reason the Telerin bring an armour ship with cannons. Most unreal.
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Old 09-21-2002, 12:12 AM   #136
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Pio, Child, Bird, feel free to post a copy of my e-mail here, I didn't keep a copy. In shory form, yes we are now short on conflict, no Sauron does not have a fleet -- Pharazon took all the warships, no the Teleri are not arrayed for war making a conflict with a lesser number of vessels viable, and the caverns may prove to be more of a challenge than we think.
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Old 09-21-2002, 09:04 AM   #137
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Here's a copy of the memo I got--Mith, I think this is you. The e-mail address is different:


I see your point. Perhaps we can somehow lay a
foundation for Ar-Pharazon having emptied the land of
warships. Gorthaur requests ships to be sent to look
for the dragon, but between the storm and the King's
fleet only a few ships can be sent.

Re the caverns, in close spaces a very few men can
hold out against a greater force. The Teleri ships
would be lightly manned, transport rather than ships
of war...
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Old 09-21-2002, 09:12 AM   #138
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Alright, that clears things up a bit. And as for guards, how many would be guarding the caverns? They aren't expecting an assault, so there can't be that many, and most of the warriors probably went with Ar-Pharazon. I don't expect there to be a warrior left if the 'Almighty King of Numenor' is going to war with the Vala. (Ignorant fool...)
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Old 09-21-2002, 09:47 AM   #139
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Quote:
I see your point. Perhaps we can somehow lay a
foundation for Ar-Pharazon having emptied the land of
warships. Gorthaur requests ships to be sent to look
for the dragon, but between the storm and the King's
fleet only a few ships can be sent.
So, Gorthaur's ships could not be warships. Since all of those have gone to the West. But ships manned, nonetheless, by fighting men loyal to Gorthaur. Would they be capturing any of you? Are you and the hobbrim going to somehow sink and kill the one(s) you encounter? If they get word back to Gorthaur (and I'm sure He would be in communication with them through osanwë) will we have a larger force to deal with at the caves?

Quote:
Re the caverns, in close spaces a very few men can
hold out against a greater force. The Teleri ships
would be lightly manned, transport rather than ships
of war...
I am assuming this means the guards at the caverns will be able to fend us off for quite a while - they being the small force, against us the larger? Their advantage could increase if Gorthaur has at the last moment found out about the hobbit prisoners and sends has the guard increased against us.

Also, Pio must have a Telerin Elf aboard every vessel that does not have one of the companions with whom she's linked before. Otherwise, that unlinked ship will be dead in the water to her.
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Old 09-21-2002, 10:03 AM   #140
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Don't mean to give people a headache over the weekend! I'd been looking for a latch in the story to add spice/suspense, (whatever) and I couldn't resist the dragon and osanwe! I should have checked first but the muse of writing carried me away. Sorry!

I love this crazy story, but I think there's a challenge built into the structure. Since the hobbits must be hidden in view of later history, we can't go up against Sauron and his minions, eye to eye, since that implies they'll learn about our "secret." (And vice versa is true as well)

I think we have three "problems" to ovecome:

1. If Sauron knows about any of us in any way, it still can't be tied in to the hobbits---this is the one thing the dragon twist did accomplish.

2. Did the Elves sign on for a "battle" or just transport duty? I guess I feel that when you agree to sneak into the tombs of Numenor, you have to expect anything might happen. You hope it won't and you plan like crazy so it won't but conflict is still a possibility.

3. Were the ships well enough armed to take on 2-3 spy ships? I think I am beginning to agree with Pio on this. The Elves had light arms but not the kind of weapons that would take out an entire ship. So that is a problem the way I'd thought about it.

So let's consider some alternatives that build on the ideas of Mith and Helen--maybe combine them.

How about? The dragon sequence happens as I have described it. Then the dragon tells Mithadan and Pio when he gets back what actually happened in his mind, i.e. the awareness of Sauron. (Cami senses something wrong, but the dragon isn't telling her since what the blazes could she do?)

Mith and Pio decide we have to "spy" and find out what's really going wrong. So Levanto smuggles Daisy in to the prison. (Pio--you make a great Daisy!) The hobbits make sure Daisy is assigned to work duty on the mount somewhere near the big "muckymucks". (And I betch Kali is upset by having Daisy go, in view of their growing friendship!) If smuggling Daisy in is too risky, maybe we could use Helen's Gamba who's assigned to gravedigging duties?

Somehow, we need to be aware of what Sauron is doing. That puts the pressure on us, and by implication the reader. Perhaps, some of Sauron's commanders or officers can be near the tombs, in connection with the guards and their duties. Anyways Daisy or Gamba spies and overhears that Sauron is suspicious about something (i.e. the dragon) and he's recalling his fleet--like Mith said. Maybe some guards are saying they'd rather get transferred to the fleet than taking care of pipsqueaks in a tomb!

So what we have is a battle against the clock. If the fleet gets back, we know we'll be toast. He'd discover us and the Elves, and bye, bye everything. Our ships do not have the facility to enter into sea battles. It would certainly give us a reason to be upset!

I don't know if there's any way we could tell the Elven ships to come faster (send out Kali or Bird to swim and tell them??) But maybe that's not possible according to the strategy issues (which Cami and Sharon have a hard time grasping with their feeble brains!)

Then it works out like Helen says-- we're leaving with the hobbits. The first ships give us chase, and we race away.

Either we could completly get away, or there is some damage or loss of life. Perhaps one of the ships is strafed and we have to rescue people out of the water??? I don't know -- you guys are better on chase and battle things than I am.

That's another thing that struck me--no one has died and stayed dead. Is it possible Veritas (or dare I say, Khelek? Sorry Khelek--if you don't want to die, ignore this!) does something noble and gets killed in battle at the tombs? I'd volunteer Cami, but that doesn't seem to fit in with our major theme--the continuation of the hobbits. So Cami has to keep living, even though doing something noble and foolhardy might appeal to her as a "shortcut" to Maura. (But if you want her to croak, I'll let you do it!)

So the conflict built in is that of racing against time. We know what Sauron plans to do. The question is: can we do our own thing first? Another variation on this is, once we know the fleet is being recalled, Bird could do some snooping of those ships right before the rescue to see how close they are--and, man, they're too close for comfort!

Is any of this possible, or too far fetched? Which parts, if any do you like, and which won't work? sharon

[ September 21, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]
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Old 09-21-2002, 10:26 AM   #141
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Are Elves always the noble ones, getting killed, or whatever? I have no say for Veritas, but if her player doesn't come along we may have to use her instead... and if there's no way around it... we could use Khelek. Not that he would mind, a faster way of getting to the West, if you take my meaning. Who knows, he might get a chance of meeting Gil-galad, and Finrod, and Fingolfin, and Feanor, Turgon, and all the other great Elves of the Eldar Days.

And as for the spy ships, they wouldn't give chase if they weren't well-armed with anything but arrows. They didn't have much technology to sink a ship in those days, unless they were to burn them or something. Could they use oil, perhaps, and create an oil spill, and set it on fire??? Nay, they might not want the risk of burning themselves.

And arrows can't do much against a large ship, except maybe rip a few holes in the sails. It's like going up against a tank armed with a Nerf gun. (Or am I just exaggerating?)

Would it be possible for them to have some foul arts of Sauron? Maybe like explosions that they used in Minas Tirith, or catapult fire brands?
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Old 09-21-2002, 11:37 AM   #142
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Let me go through this from my point of view -

If Sauron somehow finds out about the imprisoned hobbits - it must be at the very last moment when all he can do is send extra guards to the site. He is the Lord of Gifts and a fair deceiver - I don't think many or any of the rescuers could face and resist him.

None of the fleet can be 'recalled'. They are already many days on their way to Aman by the time Sauron should find out about anything. Sauron/Gorthaur must use what ships he can find (I don't think Ar-Parazôn would have given Gorthaur that much military power that he would have a fleet of his own.)
Again, if Sauron's spy ships are out looking for dragon they will be in direct contact with him. So, any direct encounter with one of them needs to come just before our rescue of the hobbits - even if we sink the ship and kill all, he will know who has done it and will focus on us.

I agree with Khelek - The Telerin will not be eager to do anything other than some small defense during the rescue mission. That is their objective - to transport the the hobbits, not to engage in major battles with men or maia.

The dragon sequence is good - with Angara coming back to let Mith and Pio know the details of his Encounter with the evil mind. Ancalimon already knows of this encounter - see Mith's post in the story about that. Should we assume he would already has told Mith and Pio about it, or not? Most of Sauron's concern should turn solely on the hint of dragon that he sensed.

If we go with the Daisy sequence - I don't mind writing her. Levanto can go back upriver to deliver her (I think he will need to alert them he is bringing her - perhaps make contact with Gamba who would love to pump her for all the info he can get about Pio.) She cannot be 'up' on the mount because Sauron would then know about the hobbits. She can work in the guard headquarters during the day, being the more or less invisible victorian servant around whom all the 'betters' speak freely. At night she would go back to the caves with the other hobbits. That's how she and Gamba could talk and how Levanto could bring back info she has gleaned. This would be an interesting write, I think, and would bring together the old and new hobbit cultures.

Sauron's commanders should not be near the tombs or caverns - Again, He cannot find out about the hobbits until the last. And I am still unclear how we are planning that he does find out about the hobbits and sends more guards to the site. Can we instead, have the actual guards at the site become suspicious somehow and asked for increased troops 'just in case'? We then have to plan something for them to be suspicious about. Any ideas? Do we want Daisy hauled up on suspicion because she's the new girl in the office?

Perhaps the 'battle against the clock' can be against Sauron's actual coming to engage us at the caverns. And the race to to free Daisy from the isolation cell they have her in.

BTW - once the Teleri arrive - Pio will arrange immediate links with them and we will immediately sail upriver. We will go under the cover of darkness (20 ships! Only a blind person couldn't see them going up the long river!)

No, Pio doesn't dare contact them again.
No, that is the fastest they can come - this was previously discussed with Tuor via Idril when Pio first went back to speak with her. They are travelling, already, twice as fast as the King's fleet going the other way.

*the light bulb goes on!

unless of course we have an Ulmo intervention at this part of the story!

What do you think?

[ September 21, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]
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Old 09-21-2002, 02:12 PM   #143
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Hmmm... Ulmo intervention sounds good to me. It would be good to know we aren't totally going to be on rampaging waters that would like to do nothing more than drown us. Yes, I know, Khelek likes thinking pessimistically.
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Old 09-21-2002, 02:49 PM   #144
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I will go with whatever you guys decide. As I said, I think some tension is needed. I agree that Sauron wouldn't have warships at his disposal. Pharazon was a fool but he wasn't stupid.

Assume that he sends a ship which doesn't find the Cami landing party. They are lured off; just because our wizard can't use magic doesn't mean he can't use his other talents (I seem to recall fireworks in the shape of a dragon from somewhere). Maybe there's a land battle with guards not affiliated with Sauron just to spice things up.

Having not found the dragon, our Dark friend would send out a few more, probably not enough to contest 20 Elven ships. Maybe they are seen going in and a greater force meets them coming out. Maybe all but the foremost are outrun.

Battle in the seas at that time would consist of ramming, use of fire (arrows) and boarding. This could provide some color.

We need to strive for believeability. We can't overcome a fleet. We do not have tremendous resources in arms. Stealth has been our ally. I wonder if anyone actually reads this as it progresses?
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Old 09-21-2002, 07:07 PM   #145
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I wonder if anyone actually reads this as it progresses?
Mith-- Helen used to read it, but then she joined us! I am actually thinking as much about the fanfiction than about the PG per se. It is possible that the fanfiction would have a few bold readers. (At least, I'll bludgeon Bethberry over the head to read it!)

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None of the fleet can be 'recalled'. They are already many days on their way to Aman by the time Sauron should find out about anything.
Pio -- I guess you are right so we have to figue out an alternative scenario for conflict.

Quote:
The dragon sequence is good - with Angara coming back to let Mith and Pio know the details of his Encounter with the evil mind. Ancalimon already knows of this encounter - see Mith's post in the story about that. Should we assume he would already have told Mith and Pio about it, or not? Most of Sauron's concern should turn solely on the hint of dragon that he sensed.
In my opinion, Ancalimon would have immediately shared his knowledge with Mith and Pio. That knowledge would basically be that Sauron had sensed Angara. However,I think the dragon would come back and talk to them as well. Angara would be able to add two points to this. Before their link was broken, the wyrm sensed two things: Sauron would have loved to add Angara to his circle of minions, and, Sauron was suspicious about why there was a dragon floating around and began to wonder if there was something strange afoot.


Regarding the hobbits and Sauron I think Sauron does know that beings exist who are called hobbits, but I don't think he thinks about it very much. He's probably even aware that some hobbits are imprisoned. After all, the hobbit are out on work duty digging graves, in the mines, etc. and his own guys would have seen this.

Although knowing hobbits exist, Sauron does not understand their significance in the big picture. This is different than Morgoth and Ar-phrazon who do have a glimpse of this. He may see hobbits walking around, but he doe not know why Ar-Phrazon imprisoned them, or even that they are all in the tombs. He would see them as worthless pipsqueaks, and wouldn't pay them much attention.

However, even at the end of the story, Sauron can not understand about the significance of the hobbits. Otherwise, his suspicions will be aroused in the Third Age.

How about this as alternatives? First, Angara is miserable with Cami on the shore, but won't tell her what happened. He only says we have to get back to the ship right away. As soon as the storm is over, we leave with the hobbrim---we have one encounter with a ship of baddies who are stranded in the storm. They may actually have been beached. We kill them and scuttle the ship so Sauron thinks they drowned in the bad weather.

Angara tells Mith and Pio about what happened to him--this confirms what Ancalimon says but gives the added bad news that Sauron is searching for the dragon and has become a bit suspicious that something may be going on. Daisy is sent to spy in Levanto's headquarters. She gets the news back to us through the brothers and Levanto. She never confronts Sauron or his "big" commanders. Because Sauron is suspicious he doubles up the guards on all prisoners--not just the hobbits. He has only a few spy ships but he sends those out looking. They catch Daisy spying and she's imprisoned in guard headquarters.

Perhaps we get an Ulmo intervention to make the ships less visible? This is the second age not the third--the Valar haven't totally deserted yet. Perhaps a terrible fog that night??? Or a cloak of invisbility? That way they can get up the river without the spy ships knowing. Within the tombs, we have more guards to contend with plus the problem of releasing Daisy who's held in the guard's headquarters. (Hey, can Kali or Gamba help with this? Give her a young admirer. It might decide which way she chooses.) I can see we can't let the spy ships see us unless we destroy them--otherwise they will tell Sauron, and the 3rd age will turn out differently.

So maybe our "weapon" has to be invisibility. Like the hobbits, we--as rescuers of the hobbits--must be hidden.

There's one more problem, and this is important. We're doing this a week before the flood. So people would ave time t get back to Sauron and tell him what happened after the rescue. Even if they don't tell, Sauron can go see the cells with the hobbits are empty. Won't Sauron know the hobbits have been picked out specially for a rescue? There is a way around this. We can let open the prison doors for everyone in the vicinity --Men, too-so Sauron will never know we explicitly came for hobbits. I assume they would have had a ton of prisoners of various races. I think we have to do this, to obscure the fact that our only real concern is hobbits.

Any ideas?

Pio, do you want to give this discussion till tomorrow afternoon, and then take a stab at summing up the ideas you think will work best. Logistics isn't my strong point!

sharon

[ September 21, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]
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Old 09-21-2002, 07:32 PM   #146
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*Chokes on iced tea she was drinking when she read the line: "Pio, do you want to give this discussion till tomorrow afternoon, and then take a stab at summing up the ideas you think will work best. Logistics isn't my strong point!" - and is now wiping it off the monitor!

I'll look at it more closely tonight - when la famille is bedded down.

*shakes her head and laughs

Logistics and me! I don't believe we've been used in the same sentence before - or even in the same paragraph!

One point: Mith says -

Quote:
Having not found the dragon, our Dark friend would send out a few more, probably not enough to contest 20 Elven ships. Maybe they are seen going in and a greater force meets them coming out. Maybe all but the foremost are outrun.
I has not thought about sailing back out from the caves to the bay. It seemed it would be hard enough to get the Teleri ships to the caves, so I had planned to time transport once we had secured the prisoners immediately to approximately one year later in time.

I am not too familiar with sailing a ship - but once we have them up the river, how are we to turn 20 of them around and sail back out?

Another idea - I was toying with the idea of Tuor and Idril coming along as a surprise with the 20 ships. What if Tuor has understood the tactical problems we might have and a couple of more heavily armed fighting ships come with him? (Where is that catamaran from the former story when we need it?)

[ September 21, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]
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Old 09-21-2002, 07:37 PM   #147
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Another idea - I was toying with the idea of Tuor and Idril coming along as a surprise with the 20 ships. What if Tuor has understood the tactical problems we might have and a couple of more heavily armed fighting ships come with him? (Where is that catamaran from the former story when we need it?)

Pio --that's an interesting idea. If we just had one good fightng ship, we could blow those two small spy ships to smithereens. I really like that idea, in view of their earlier role in the story. Also, they "failed" in Gondolin. This gives them a chance to save our necks here. It neatly closes the circle.

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Old 09-21-2002, 07:52 PM   #148
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*raises hand timidly*

I'm reading it. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

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Old 09-21-2002, 08:10 PM   #149
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Logistics and me! I don't believe we've been used in the same sentence before - or even in the same paragraph!
Hey, you guys better know what you're doing. I'm following you! (Birdie wanders off to play with hobbrims until someone tells her to go somewhere. "La-La-La...")Can't the storm just scatter Sauron's fleet?

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Old 09-21-2002, 08:16 PM   #150
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Hmmm... nice way to put an end to things. But there is a problem about turning around in a river with a long line of twenty boats. And that's not counting Idril and Tuor. Our only hope is that there's a place for harbourage upstream. Otherwise we'll be neatly caught on both sides. I see a little battle sequence coming up there.
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Old 09-21-2002, 10:21 PM   #151
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There is a battle scene - a nice big one when we rescue the hobbits. Once we get them all on board - then the time transfer happens.

Are you sure you don't want to die there [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] and go West? The Halls of Mandos aren't all that bad, and Valinor is great this time of year. Not to mention that I'm sure the great hero Khelek would be immortalized in a long song by the grateful hobbits!!!!
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Old 09-22-2002, 04:48 AM   #152
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Yeah, I could see that too, Khelek; think about that if you do one o' them battle scenes. History, and all that.
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Old 09-22-2002, 07:00 AM   #153
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There is a battle scene - a nice big one when we rescue the hobbits. Once we get them all on board - then the time transfer happens
Sounds good.

But what about the last question I raised? If Sauron knows the hobbits have been singled out for rescue, even after the fact, doesn't that put the third age in jeopardy? Don't we have to try and make it look like a more general rescue, by opening the prison doors on at least some of the Men who must also have been imprisoned nearby?

When we originally planned the rescue way back in the beginning, we thought it would take place immediately before the flood. Then no one would have known about the hobbits' disappearance. But we are doing it a whole week ahead---for legitimate tactical reasons. So don't we need to cover our footsteps somehow?

Are we going to kill off every guard? Or will some still be alive to go tell their boss what happened? Even if we kill them all, Sauron's minions would see that the hobbit cells, and only the hobbit cells are empty. Don't we need to make sure some other cells are empty too? They don't need to know who we put on the boats and who just ran away. In the confusion of battle and all that would not be clear.

Can we still use "Ulmo's fog" as a protection going down the river for the ships? I liked that idea.

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[ September 22, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]
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Old 09-22-2002, 07:28 AM   #154
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*raises hand high into the air and starts jumping up and down*

Oooh Pick me Pick me! Rose can die. Dieing is not such a big deal for elves. I mean Khelek was gonna go the west eventually anyway. But hobbits arn't sure where they're going so it's more of a sacrafice. I feel like Rose has been Cami's shadow for awhile. Let her do something. It doesn't have to be heroic. Rose is definatly someone who would do somthing stupid and get herself killed.

Um.....so what do you think?
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Old 09-22-2002, 09:24 AM   #155
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S'okay, Birdie. Me too. And it's not as if I had just started a conversation with you which you were ignoring, like some people who shall remain nameless. *goes off to talk with those who do want to talk with her* [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

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Old 09-22-2002, 09:28 AM   #156
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Let's work on one task at a time.

What we know:

The Star is 100 miles off the coast of southern Numenor.

There is a storm.

Mithadan, Pio, Ancalimon, and Veritas are onboard the Star.

The Star hobbits, Kali, Bird , and Angara are somewhere to the southeast on the coast of that peninsula. They have found the missing hobbrim.

Angara has been foolish enough to use osanwë and so has been sensed by Gorthaur(Sauron), but not found. Sauron knows nothing of the Star or the hobbrim rescue mission.

The Star has been in the 2nd Age for 5 days.

The Teleri have been on their way for 5 days and will reach us in 15 days.

The Númenorean armada has been gone 6 days and will reach Aman in 33 days.
___________________________________________

What we need to do now, is get Angara back to the ship soon so she can fill them in on what she experienced of Sauron's intent.

Then we need to get the hobbrim rescue party(hereafter referred to as HRP) and I'm supposing the hobbrim themselves onto the Star (How many are there, BTW?)

Sauron will be interested in finding the dragon and send say 2 or 3 small, lightly manned craft (not warships) to patrol the coastal waters in hopes of discovering the dragon. Two men, loyal to Sauron, would be enough to pilot these craft.

The HRP and hobbrim cannot get back to the Star because of these patrols. Can we have them stuck there say 3 or 4 days?

I propose moving the Star closer in now to the island. We can somehow make it look as if it were a largish fishing vessel coming back into port.(We had already discussed earlier that we would no longer go with the idea of it being a vessel of Elven design) Ancalimon and Mithadan can be the Old Fisherman and Mith, his first mate/son. The elves would have to stay below decks, out of sight.

We will be hailed by one of the patrol boats and boarded to see who we are. At that point, after some tense questioning by Sauron's man and his growing suspicion of Ancalimon and Mith, we will slay him, board the other craft quickly, slay the other minion and then we have to figure out what to do with their craft.

What say we let Ancalimon use his pyrotechnics here - we can burn the boat to make it look as if Dragonfire had hit it, and then pull away from it to seem as if we were just observers of the terrible wrath of the dragon.

As the other Sauron-craft converge on that area to see what has happened, Ancalimon could shoot off one of his Dragon Fireworks and they go haring off after it while we slip past them to pick up the HRP and the hobbrim and move back out to sea.

**** I wonder if just before this point we can have Daisy volunteer to infiltrate the guard headquarters near Menelarma. The patrolling of the coasts has gotten the hobbits and hobbrim worried that 'something' might be happening at the cave prison. The hobbrim and Levanto (he will need to introduce her to the prison hobbits) can take her upriver and Gamba can take charge of getting her to the Elders. There are already hobbit lasses who work in the HQ office, and don't all hobbits look the same to Men? So, they could exchange her for one who already works there. She can learn of their plans to increase the patrol of the river, increase the guards, and increase the coastal patrol and get the info back through Levanto. When security tightens even further, she can be put in an isolation cell separate from the caves - perhaps they find a directive on her that she has stolen from someones desk.******

Sauron will be 'aware' that something has happened in the area he is having patrolled, but not know details. At this point, I'm thinking he is not in osanwë contact with the people on the 3 craft. The other two craft will report to him through their contact on shore,who will be in direct communication with him.

Sauron will now be on full alert and there will be increased ships (not warships, but now armed somewhat) patrolling the coast.

We will have word through Daisy that this is what has been ordered, as well as increased guards at the prison, and patrols of the River.

Once we get through this section of the story - then let's break down the rest of the tasks to be done and tackle them one at a time.
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Old 09-22-2002, 10:27 AM   #157
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Hey Bethberry,

You and I can be clueless together, eh? I'll leave the tactics to the tacticians, and whine about grave digging and write a peom for poor dead Khelek; that's about my speed. This thing is getting so crazy I'm beginning to forget my own name, but he11, they say the short term memory is the first to go. Mine's long gone.

oh, wait, Khelek hasn't died yet. Sorry, old bean.

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Old 09-22-2002, 10:44 AM   #158
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The HRP and hobbrim cannot get back to the Star because of these patrols. Can we have them stuck there say 3 or 4 days?
Absolutely no problem. Bird and I had planned a 2-3 day storm all along so an extra day won't kill us.

Quote:
I propose moving the Star closer in now to the island. We can somehow make it look as if it were a largish fishing vessel coming back into port.(We had already discussed earlier that we would no longer go with the idea of it being a vessel of Elven design) Ancalimon and Mithadan can be the Old Fisherman and Mith, his first mate/son. The elves would have to stay below decks, out of sight.

We will be hailed by one of the patrol boats and boarded to see who we are. At that point, after some tense questioning by Sauron's man and his growing suspicion of Ancalimon and Mith, we will slay him, board the other craft quickly, slay the other minion and then we have to figure out what to do with their craft.
A mannish boat, rather than an Elvish boat is fine for the Star. But how could the Star sail to the coast when there's such bad weather? Don't they have to wait till the weather dies down a little? Maybe the storm is still going on, but it's beginning to slacken when they come.

Let me suggest a chronology for this and you see if it works.

1. Rescue party is stuck for 3 days on account of the storm. During those 3 days, these things happen:

a. Angara wakes up and is weeping and she's angry at Mith because he used Osanwe. (Even when Mith posted, I wondered if he should have sent Angara, since she might attract attention. I never dreamed of Osanwe attention, however. ) Angara won't tell Cami what has happened but only says we must get back to the Star. Of course, we can't leave because of the weather.

b. A scene or two with lore and discussing hobbit history (see helen's latest post re remembering maura) Helen also has a new poem for the hobbrim to sing.

c. During the storm, a small ship with two men is beached on the coast. We know it belongs to Sauron because of the banner(Hey, what insignia did Sauron use?)
Angara is still ill so she can't do anything. We don't want to use the hobbrim since they're even more hidden than hobbits. Bird is smart enough not to use her dragon form, as there aren't many dragons floating over Numeor.

After the storm ends, Rose and Bird go to Sauron's ship in the middle of the night. There is a scuffle and the women overpower them since they do have the element of surprise. The hobbrim push the ship out into slightly deeper waters and scuttle it. Sauron will think it drowned in the storm.

2. As the storm dies down, the Star heads towards land. Mith does this beause of what Ancalimon has said concerning Sauron and Angara. Mith and Pio are beginning to worry that something may be going wrong. Therefore, they send the Star in to investigate and help with the rescue.

While Rose's and Bird's ambush of the ship and its scuttling is going on, the scene with the Star as a fishing vessel takes place, as you described. The Star comes and picks us up. We are already out swimming in the water towards the ship. (Of course, we think it's 100 miles away.)

3. An angry Angara tells his story to Mith. He is furious that Mith used osanwe. Angara's story confirms what Ancalimon already told Mith and Pio -- Sauron's awareness of the dragon. But Angara adds two more points of informtion: Sauron wants to add the dragon to his circle of minions, and Sauron is beginning to be suspicious that something weird may be up--though he has no idea what.

4. Bird tells the story how she and Rose found a beached craft of Sauron, and how they killed the men and scuttled it.

5. Mith and Pio are alarmed. What Angara said, plus the presence of the craft of Sauron, doesn't sound good. They need more information.

5. Daisy makes her offer to go spy on guard headquarters. At first, Mith refuses it saying it's too dangerous for one small girl to be sent out alone. The he decides we have to have more info. Levanto takes Daisy to the tombs........She discovers the things like you said, and gets the information back through Levanto.

I do think Daisy should make a point of saying she has seen imprisoned men as well as hobbits at work. We want to lay some grundwork for flinging open the jail cells of men, since the hobbits can't be singled out to Sauron.

Regarding Daisy in an isolation cell--maybe she's trying to get a memo off someone's desk--maybe the new duty roster for the guards, only thankfully the bad guys think she's trying to steal some money or jewelry also lying there?

I agree, since Sauron's folk were men, they do not have direct osanwe contact with their boss.

What do you think?
sharon
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Old 09-22-2002, 11:02 AM   #159
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Great, I'm already thought of as dead. Very comforting you are, mark!

And it looks like the details are pretty much worked out, except how are we supposed to tend hobbits and whoever else we save from Ar-Pharazon. What do we do with the extra Men? Drop them off on Middle-earth with the hobbits?
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Old 09-22-2002, 11:06 AM   #160
mark12_30
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Sting

If:
1. Sauron isn't suppopsed to know that there are hobbits and
2. he will find out if we screw up and let a guard loose
then
3. Why are hobbits (Rose) running around in headquarters?
4. If hobbits can run around in headquarters because Sauron has separate headquarters, and Ar-Pharazon's henchmen know to keep the hobbits a secret from Sauron, then why would Ar-Pharazon's guards tell Sauron about the hobbits even if half the guards escaped?
5. If the headquarters are separate and keeping secrets from each other all the time, then what good does it do to send Rose to spy on Sauron's headquarters from withhin Ar-Pharazon's headquarters?
and lastly
6. Was my idea of hobbit sacrifices along with human sacrifices stupid all along, because then Saruon would find out about them? Then I should delete all those silly references to mysteriously filled little graves, because they no longer make a lick of sense. I guess another mine collapse can explain the orphans.

Gamba is confused as usual, somebody please send Levanto to straighten him out enough so that he doesn't alert Sauron all by himself. Assuming he hasn't already.

[ September 22, 2002: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]
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