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Old 12-15-2004, 09:07 AM   #41
Guinevere
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Quote:
- Eowyn's dream :Why is she sleeping alone on a frail sofa in the deserted hall ? Doesn't the poor girl have a bedroom of her own ?! Or is she just lying in wait for Aragorn to come out...


Why? Because she is a lady and t'would be unbecoming to share a chamber with all those men!
Well, I think it would be more becoming and normal if she slept in her chamber, and all those men out in the hall!! But that would't give her an opportunity to talk to Aragorn.

I forgot to mention a small incident which I appreciate very much because it is one of my favourite scenes in the book: the glimpse of the star above the clouds that Sam sees in Mordor, and his comment.
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Old 12-15-2004, 09:12 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man
I bet you lot would all refer to a glass as half empty ...
Us lot? You mean those people who DARE to find criticisms in Saint Peter Jackson's movies?

One is not a pessimist just because one finds (according to them) genuine faults in the movies.

In return, it could be said about, those "lot" who think the movies are perfect, that they are jumping on the Bandwagon!
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Old 12-15-2004, 09:21 AM   #43
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1420!

No need to get fiesty, we all have a right to our own opinions.

Looking down this thread, the criticisms in the movie are a bit nit-picky. There are a few valid criticisms I can see where people aren't happy with. But the fact that there wasn't enough time in the HoH, Saruman being on top of Orthanc instead of the balcony, and the Mouth of Sauron, I find rather carping insignificant criticisms.
But that's just my take.

I think we would have all appreciated to see some more HoH, but think of it this way....
First off people would be complaining if there WAS NO Houses of Healing. So, consider this, would you rather have however long it was, 30 seconds, of Houses of Healing, or no Houses at all? Oh well, sometimes there's just no pleasing some folks.

I honestly don't believe someone else could have done as good of a job as PJ has pleasing Tolkien readers (most of them), and atracting in a large fan group.

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Old 12-15-2004, 09:30 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turin
You mean those people who DARE to find criticisms in Saint Peter Jackson's movies?
I have no objections to criticisms, provided that they are validly and intelligently made (and there are many, both here and elsewhere, that fall into this category, some of which I agree with and some of which I don't). My main "gripe" (if you can call it that as = flippant comment), is the prevailing negativity with little counterbalance of positivity. According to the prevailing opinion on this thread, the EE is dreadful and not worth wasting my time over (and I somehow doubt that to be the case). I will no doubt agree with some of the criticisms (indeed, I already do, having seen some of the trailers) but it surely it can't be all bad (which is the impression given by the majority of (recent at least) posts here).


Quote:
One is not a pessimist just because one finds (according to them) genuine faults in the movies.
But they might give that impression if they restrict their comments solely to those criticisms (genuinely held though they undoubtedly are).


Quote:
In return, it could be said about, those "lot" who think the movies are perfect, that they are jumping on the Bandwagon!
Hehe. I suppose it might be said that I have "jumped on the bandwagon", given that the films awakened my interest in Tolkien that had previously been dormant for some 20 years and prompted me to find this place.
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Old 12-15-2004, 11:00 AM   #45
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Saucepan Man, (btw, i tried to put some smilies in but for some reason couldn't, so my comments were made in good jest)

I have to say that, from my point of view, it gets rather monotonous when everyone has the same opinions about the movies, especially all the "positives".

My lack of positive comments comes from, not my dislike of the trilogy (I actually like them very much), but from the fact that others have already pretty much summed them up!

Hence, I like to play Devil's Advocate so that there is another perspective (though all of what I have said is true to how I really feel).
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Old 12-15-2004, 11:21 AM   #46
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if Gandalf walked up to the Steward and wrapped him in the face, Guards would be all over him.
I find that if one looks hard enough (I'm not having a go here Boromir, and I agree with almost all you've said so far) you can find some seed in the book that PJ 'built' upon. The above is one. quote below is where Gandalf arrives at Rath Dinen and confronts Denethor
Quote:
But Gandalf sprang up the steps, and the men fell back from him and covered their eyes; for his coming was like the incoming of a white light into a dark place, and he came with great anger. He lifted up his hand, and in the very stroke, the sword of Denethor flew up and left his grasp and fell behind him in the shadows of the house; and Denethor stepped backward before Gandalf as one amazed.
As you can see, there is something in the book about Gandalf 'striking' Denethor (I admit it isn't with his staff but with his hand)

PS Mr Saucepan - well said as usual! My cup is at the moment about 80-90% full, and no doubt on further viewings will rise towards 100%, especially when I hear the director and co's commentaries
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Old 12-15-2004, 11:47 AM   #47
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1420!

Do you know where I can find that quote Essex? Not that I doubt you, just don't remember coming across that, I want to see if I've read that before or if I haven't. Since, I don't remember it. (I'm guessing it's in the Pyre of Denethor chapter?)

I still stick with what I've said. If only one of Denethor's servants (Beregond) goes against Denethor, either the others don't know he's mad, or are too afraid of the consequences, then I feel they would have done something to protect their lord.

Turin, I know how you feel. That's why I like posting early, to get everything I need out, instead of worrying about repeating, or rehashing what people have already said.

Edit: Before I forget, SpM, I viewed the movie again, the lines with Pippin and Gandalf out on the balcony are...

Quote:
Pippin: But we have the White Wizard. That's got to count for something. (sees troubled face on Gandalf) Gandalf?
Gandalf: Sauron has yet to reveal his deadliest servant, the one who will lead Mordor's armies, the one they say no living man can kill. The Witch-King of Angmar, you've met him before, he stabbed Frodo on Weathertop. He is the Lord of the Nazgul, deadliest of the nine, Minas Morgul is his lair.

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Old 12-15-2004, 12:04 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turin
my comments were made in good jest
And you can rest assured that they were taken as such.

Don't mind me. I just lurk around this forum and jump out grouchily every so often when I feel that the films are getting too much of a battering.

Although I most certainly don't regard the films as perfect - I have been known to criticise them myself on occasion (always validly and intelligently, of course ).

Quote:
I have to say that, from my point of view, it gets rather monotonous when everyone has the same opinions about the movies, especially all the "positives".
Which is precisely how I feel about the negatives. And they seem to be the main talking point these days - certainly in comparison with when RotK first came out. Perhaps these films just lose their gloss for some people after a time. Or perhaps it is just that the negative points are easier to make.

Although I am quite surprised that there have been quite so many negative points made about the EE, given that it includes many of the scenes that caused so much disappointment by their omission with the release of the theatrical version. Perhaps expectations were a little high, particularly after the TTT EE, which did much to make amends for what was undoubtedly (for me) the weakest of the (film) trilogy.

In any event. I can't be that much of a fanboy, as I have had the EE for nearly a week and still haven't unwrapped it, let alone watched it.

Edit: Thanks for providing the line, Boromir88. It does ring a bell now that you mention it. Of course, to be true to the book, Gandalf's line would have had to have been: "... the one they say no living man will kill."
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Old 12-15-2004, 12:11 PM   #49
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Boromir88

‘The Pyre of Denethor’ is indeed where that quote comes from.

Here’s the scene:

Quote:
For there were the servants of Denethor with swords and torches in their hands; but alone in the porch upon the topmost step stood Beregond, clad in the black and silver of the Guard; and he held the door against them. Two of them had already fallen to his sword, staining the hallows with their blood; and the others cursed him, calling him outlaw and traitor to his master.

Even as Gandalf and Pippin ran forward, they heard from within the house of the dead the voice of DEnethor crying: ‘Haste, haste! Do as I have bidden! Slay me this renegade! Or must I do it myself?’ Thereupon the door which Beregond held shut with his left hand was wrenched open, and there behind him stood the Lord of the City, tall and fell; a light like flame was in his eyes, and he held a drawn sword.

But Gandalf sprang up the steps, and the men fell back from him and covered their eyes; for his coming was like the coming of a white light into a dark place, and he came with great anger. He lifted up his hand, and in the very stroke, the sword of Denethor flew up and left his grasp and fell behind him in the shadows of the house; and Denethor stepped backward before Gandalf as one amazed.
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Old 12-15-2004, 12:14 PM   #50
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1420!

Ok I remember that, thanks Pio and Essex.
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Old 12-15-2004, 01:01 PM   #51
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White Tree 96% ^_^

The 4% off comes from Denethor. I am very sad that he wasn't redeemed a bit more.

BUT! Other than that, I loved the new scenes. I thought the Mouth of Sauron was brilliant. His posture and facial... er, oral expressions were great. Although I am surprised by Aragorn beheading him! Although, I guess PJ had license; Tolkien never did say how Mouth died. *shrug*

Anyway, very good, loved the new stuff, and can't wait to listen to the cast commentary (Gollum and Smeagol! Yay!).

Abedithon le,

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Old 12-15-2004, 01:02 PM   #52
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He lifted up his hand, and in the very stroke, the sword of Denethor flew up and left his grasp and fell behind him in the shadows of the house; and Denethor stepped backward before Gandalf as one amazed.
Huh. Now, maybe I'm missing something, but I never got Gandalf striking Denethor out of that. Isn't the "very stroke" Denethor striking at Beregond?
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Old 12-15-2004, 01:36 PM   #53
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"He lifted up his hand, and in the very stroke,"

Actually, my reading is that "the very stroke" is the moving of the hand
upwards, not its hitting Denethor.
=======================

As for criticism seeming to be mostly negative, I think that's because it's
harder to write positive views on just about anything (other then gushing
about how nice something is) as opposed to analysing relative failings.
Witness the greater frequency of sports talk radio activity when teams are
going badly as opposed to successful.

For my part, when the films were first reported, I expected them to have a
"grade" of about "D", whereas I'd give them an overall grade of B-, with
FOTR being the best, and scenary and actor selections rating even higher.

Perhaps, changing my original views, the best PJ change was FOTR
XenaArwen, it does make movie sense, and her meeting Aragorn as he finds
Ethelas was the sexiest bit in the movies. Now if only they had cut her line:
"if you want him...." and had Frodo say:
"By Elbereth and Luthien the Fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me."
(Oh, well).
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Old 12-15-2004, 03:02 PM   #54
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I'm sorry I sounded so negative - it's probably just as Saucepanman said
my expectations were too high - hence the disappointment!
I think the music, the scenery, (landscape, buildings, costumes, weapons, everything to the last detail) were just perfect, the actors were (nearly) all "right" for me too (which is a big exception for me!) and by FotR I was so enchanted that I forgot that I sat in the cinema, and I went to see it 5 times! Of course I had hoped the enchantment would continue with TTT and RotK, but there were so many drastic changes, especially of the characters, that for me, the charm didn't work any more. In RotK especially the scenes changed so quickly and every time I was really moved, there followed something that caused disbelief and put me out in the primary world again. Not even "the willing suspense of disbelief" worked. Just because there is so much I like, I grieve at the changes that spoil the film for me. I guess I just know and love the books all too well by now!
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Old 12-15-2004, 04:45 PM   #55
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I must admit that for some reason I was expecting a bit more from EE.... Not to say that EE isn't really great - cuz it is! But it seems like it was missing something...

Anyways! The added stuff was amazing. I was so glad to see The House of Healing (even if it was so short) and to see Gandalf and The Witch King, The mouth of Sauron (Sorry... but did anyone else crack up at Aragorn's espression after TMOS 'smiles'? *Snork* I bust a gut!) and especially in the Company of Orcs. It was so nice to see more depth to some things.

As always, the EE really gave more feeling to some parts of the movie and explained certain things (- Ah - so that's why Gandalf didn't have his staff at the Pyre of Denethor...). However, I still wish most of this stuff was just included in the regular version rather than the EE... It would have helped some of my friends understand certain things, cuz heck - let's face it, many of the people who went to the theaters to see the movie aren't going to watch the EE version of it. It's mostly just us nuts who want to see certain scenes we missed from the books that weren't in the original movie.

But yeah, Overall I'd give it an 8 or 9. It was truly very brilliant!

~Enny~
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Old 12-16-2004, 02:15 PM   #56
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Thumbs up

Since I was simply looking forward to new scenes I wasn't too picky. I am no middle earth expert yet so I really can't compare some details to my knowledge of the books. I will say, though, I liked the mouth of Sauraon (creepy) and the scene with Saruman, simply because I wanted to see Christopher Lee one last time in the film. I also loved the extended Path of the Dead sequence and the extended Gandalf and Pippin scene. The drinking contest seemed like it was tryin to hard to be funny and was out of place.
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Old 12-16-2004, 04:05 PM   #57
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Thumbs up

Now, regardless to the fact if it was in the books or not, I thought that the added scene with Eomer finding Eowyn on the field absolutely amazing. The anguish in Karl Urbans face when he held her was how I would imagine I would feel/look if I found my sister like that.

The mouth of Sauron was hysterical in my opinion. That wide, toothy grin was something that's for sure. I wasn't quite sure if it was grinning to be spiteful or if that's the natural position of the mouth! *lol*

I was still holding out hope that one of my favorite lines would be completed in the extended edition, but alas, it wasn't. It was when Sam realized that Frodo hadn't been killed by Shelob. In the movie, all he says is "Samwise, you fool." In the book he goes into a more heartfelt line of "Samwise you fool, he wasn't dead and your heart knew it" ...For all the detail Sean Astin goes into to try and be like Samwise in the novel, I would have really liked to see that as one of those minor adjustments. *shrugs* oh well, I've got my books that have it down PERFECT!

All in all...loved the extended edition scenes. I haven't watched all the extra features, but I did manage to watch the dedication to Cameron Duncan. I cried, it was beautifully done.
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Old 12-16-2004, 04:11 PM   #58
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Well, well, it's been more'n week since I've even posted on the Downs! Dreadful! I must recoup my losses...The holiday season obviously has its downsides (O accursed St. Nicholas, how dare you distract me with baubles and gift wrap!)

Since I made vehement points about the EE on other occasions, I thought it'd be fitting for me to return, in good spirits, with my newly purchased copy of the Extended Edition, and report.

Many of you may know that Saruman and Grima Wormtongue are two of my favorite characters in The Lord of the Rings, nay, in all of Tolkien's works.

You may be surprised, then, to learn that I loved the added "Voice of Saruman" sequence.

Christopher Lee is magnificent as usual, and I have only two minor gripes. Far more good points to make then bad. The editing was sketchy, for one. Saruman popping up worked, because he is supposed to be crafty, and that implies a certain wizardly stealth, but when Saruman was dead and the camera cut back to Treebeard, it didn't work as well. Also, Saruman's actual "fall" was melodromatic with the amount of spinning that plummeting Maia carcass did. Would've been a bit more realistic if he just fell, and more weighty as well. Those are my only annoyances about the scene. The whispering of characters seemed reasonable to me. Firstly, it is explained that none of the actors realized how high up Saruman was, so their confusion is understandable.

Saruman's voice was perfectly melodious and sinister. When I heard Lee utter those fabulous words ("Gibbets and crows! Dotard!") I felt a surge of joy. I knew the whole speech would not be there, but I knew that its feeling was, and that was good enough. It is the feeling of that near-multiple-personality tirade of Saruman's that is essential. The voice was sickeningly sweet and tempting, tantalizing, and Theoden, despite other comments, seemed momentarily tempted by the prospect of alliance. Also as an added bonus, Grima was well-killed: swift arrow, a gasp or two, silence. And, finally, I found a bit of amusement and interest in hearing about Saruman's accurate delivery of his post-mortem grunt (C. Lee explains, in the 'Cameras in M-E' Documentary, that he had some clandestine knowledge of what sound a person made when a person was stabbed in the back multiple times).

The additions contributed to Legolas and Gimli were also interesting, considering the fact that, as is revealed, John Rhys-Davies actually ad-libbed all those corny/cheesy lines of Gimli's. This, I think, is a redeeming trait. It's not easy to create a line in context that is funny enough to still cause a chorus of laughter in global theaters. Kudos to the Dwarf! Similarly, I found little wrong with the drinking game, although it did not strike my humerus, as did some other Dwarven prodigies. I liked the Corsair bit, although the corsair captain's lines sounded even more modern than most of Legolas and Gimli's pop-culture jokes (do people in Middle-Earth really say "You and what army"?).

Denethor was not redeemed, he was explored, and I liked that - a lot. I thought that the EE added quite a bit to Denethor. His conversation with Faramir was average, but the single addition of his few lines during "The Pyre of Denethor" were enlightening in some respect. In the moment before he casts the torch, to sow his own doom, upon the fire, he did give some insight into his reasons and his madness (in essence, summing up a lot of thoughts that the book-verse palantir shoved into his weakened mind). John Noble, during the commentaries and documentaries, does speak about the palantir at length, which means that it was not forgotten...nor was it, really, left out of Denethor's character. I still think that the movie's depiction of him is slanderous to a great character, but I smile to know that some of my love for Denethor as a character is shared, and that PJ did understand that this was not a villain, not an abusive cad, but a fallen monarch...
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Old 12-17-2004, 01:47 PM   #59
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My parents are having us watch it about an hour a night since it is so long, so I have not finished it yet (Maybe tonight). But I have some questions
1. Does anyone know what happened to the elven army who were at Helm's Deep? They could not all have died, I doubt that they would have left before the final defeat of Sauron. But they did not seem to be around at Edoras or anywhere in the Return of the King.
2. Did Gimli bumb Legolas's bow on purpose during the Corsairs scene? I noticed the camera focused on that fact.
3. Did the Evenstar pendant break in the scene with the palantir? It looked like it did and it did not look like Aragorn was wearing it in the next scene where they were on their way to Mordor.
If anyone is wondering we stopped it right after the palantir scene but had not stopped it before seeing Aragorn.
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Old 12-17-2004, 02:25 PM   #60
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1420!

Quote:
They could not all have died
I think they actually did all die. If you look in TTT, when they are stuck in the Hornburg, and Theoden decides to ride out, I don't believe there are any elves there except Legolas. I think the others are Theoden, Gamling, Aragorn, Legolas, A rohan standard bearer, and some other Rohan people.
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Old 12-17-2004, 07:00 PM   #61
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Ah, Kransha, well said!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rochelle
The mouth of Sauron was hysterical in my opinion. That wide, toothy grin was something that's for sure. I wasn't quite sure if it was grinning to be spiteful or if that's the natural position of the mouth! *lol*
I really liked how his mouth moved, actually. It pulled your attention there, which is where it should be. Mouth of Sauron, gettit? I really liked his mannerisms in the film; I believe the way he was to be played was that he was basically a puppet (maybe dead at that point?) being controlled by Sauron. The jerkiness of his movements really helped to give that impression.

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Originally Posted by Dûrbelethwen
2. Did Gimli bumb Legolas's bow on purpose during the Corsairs scene? I noticed the camera focused on that fact.
That definitely seemed to be the case! I thought that was really clever; if Legolas doesn't want to hit something, he doesn't. It's a funny excuse for the shot to go awry. I know a few people are a little annoyed by that, but just remember, PJ is the corsair being shot! ^_~

(Just kidding, PJ! You're wonderful, really! *hugs*)

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Old 12-19-2004, 07:58 PM   #62
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Silmaril

I’m afraid that this extended edition was more of a disappointment than a treat for me. There were a few scenes that I really enjoyed, but I felt like I was waiting around for hours for certain scenes that never came.

Favorite additions:

- The statue of the king at the crossroads that is “re-crowned.” Very beautiful.

- Gandalf’s brief history lesson concerning Númenor, including allusions to the fall of the Númenórians and their culture of death as described in The Silmarillion.

- Saruman’s quote about “brigand’s brats who roll on the floor with the dogs” (sorry, don’t have a book handy to look up the exact quote). Makes me laugh :-P

Problems:

- My major disappointment was with the portrayal and treatment of the Mouth of Sauron. First of all, he didn’t scare me; he was just disgusting. He wasn’t portrayed as a twisted, lost man (which would have be a hundred times more eerie), but as a specialized orc. More importantly, Aragorn’s sudden and relatively unprovoked beheading of the MoS was barbaric. It was an unnecessarily violent and thoughtless action that added nothing to the plot and was certainly not indicative of kingly, noble character. That Jackson could derive such a scene from a source text that emphasizes mercy and fair play on the part of the protagonists puzzles me.

- I was looking forward to the Houses of Healing and a developed relationship between Faramir and Éowyn, but the extra scenes were only tantalizing, not satisfying in the least. The developing love between Faramir and Éowyn was shown so briefly that it may have been better to leave it out altogether. It suggests that Éowyn, knowing that she couldn’t have Aragorn, settled for the next handsome man. Very poor character development.

- This may just be a personal peeve, but what was the point of having Éomer tell Éowyn that battle was man’s domain? To further develop a feminist theme simply not present in the original work? Probably so. Nonetheless, I did not appreciate the point being made at his expense, as if to make a bigot out of one of Tolkien’s greatest heroic figures (not in the sense that his statement is necessarily a bigoted one, but in that it is meant to be interpreted as incorrect and chauvanistic). I am a woman, but that doesn’t mean I need a pep talk at every movie I go to. I love Éowyn as a woman who is fighting for her people and for renown, fighting as a person, not as a cause.

- Why does Gandalf have to order everything “into the abyss?” That phrase seems a bit overused (if not melodramatic). His staff being shattered was simply awful. It draws ties to Saruman that are less than flattering. And I can’t imagine Tolkien’s Gandalf ever being knocked over like an old man, no matter how fearsome the foe, and certainly not because some flying reptile screamed at him.

- I understand why Jackson left out the Shire at the end, and I almost liked his version of Sharkey’s End. Right up until he fell off Orthanc and landed on that spike. That was just gruesome. Rather poor taste if you ask me.

- What was up with the avalanche of skulls in the paths of the dead? Major overkill. Does Jackson realize how many people those skulls would add up to?

- And finally (probably to your relief )…enough with the Gimli slapstick! Sheesh.


In conclusion, it seems to me that Mr. Jackson still hasn’t gotten past his horror, B-rated genre days. LotR probably helped him get out of the rut, but he’s still too wrapped up in gross-out and shock-and-awe scenes for their own sake to truly, in my opinion, do justice to a work like LotR. A little subtlety can go a long way. Don’t get me wrong: I’ve enjoyed these movies, but in the end I find my admiration waning under disappointments that just kept piling up.
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Old 12-20-2004, 08:06 PM   #63
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After watching it last night I have found that I give the movie a 9.5 out of 10.

The scene with Saruman and Grima at the Orthanc I really enjoyed. You can really tell that Saruman is one of us with the awsome performance that he puts out. To me, he just embodies what I envisioned in my own mind of what Saruman would be like. As to the question posed as to why Legolas shot Grima who was in the process of "offing" Saruman, it is because he was killing Saruman and they wanted him alive so that they could get more information out of him. Even though the scene in the Shire was not there, Saruman's death was a nice replacement for that.

But what I feel aided the movie most of all where the little scenes that were extended/added to the theatrical version. The additional interaction with Faramir and Denethor where some of the saddest moments in the movie, even though I didn't like the development of Denethor's character. They still made the movie so much more special to me. The additional scenes with Pippin and Faramir and Gandalf were really touching. And Merry offering his sword to Theoden is one of may favorite scenes.

Me, being the crazy person that I am, watched the entire movie, including the credits and the insanely long list of members of the fanclub. Towards the end of the credits there is a statement thanking all the people that made the movie possible, or something along those lines. And then there follows some lines written in another language. I'm not sure if it is Elvish or not. If it is, its not any that I can recognize. The quote goes as follows:
Quote:
Me Mahara Tonu Tatou Nga Uri-Apakura No Tuanuku Nei,
No te Waoto, te tu kekehua ana o nga Eldarin kua Hohou mai i te Uri-Moaka
Of course, we can all recognize the word Eldarin, but I am curious as to the actual meaning of the phrase. To me, it reminds me more of Japanese than of Elvish, but what do I know. I believe that I got the quote correct, I could never pause the DVD in the right place so the image was always a little blurry. Any ideas as to the meaning????
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Old 12-20-2004, 08:25 PM   #64
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[QUOTE=Boromir88]The thing that gets me mad is Gandalf using the Steward as a punching bag, if Gandalf walked up to the Steward and wrapped him in the face, Guards would be all over him. [QUOTE]

But it got such a cheer, at least from the audience I was with. Don't take this the wrong way, but if I directed a movie that got that kind of reaction from an audience, I would know I did it right.

I know I'm come across as a PJ fanatic at times, but I am not. I'm a great fan of the trilogy and, although King was my favourite film of last year, neither Towers nor Fellowship were of the years before. I don't think that it would have been a colossal oversight on the part of the Academy not to give Best Picture to King (they have numerous previous blunders that are larger) and would have been happy to see it go to Lost in Translation, an equally deserving film, though so different to be completely incomparable.

Nor do I think Jackson is the world's greatest working director, though he is a talent to be sure. I find each of his films are injected with a sense of raw fun that is sorely missing from almost all Hollywood blockbusters for quite some time. Is he over the top at times? Certainly yes, but there is such a lack of pomposity that I don't really mind. I would take Jackson over a dozen of these paint-by-number directors that currently make most of our summer brain candy. In fact, I would argue that his film Heavenly Creatures demonstrates a deft and a talent for creating simply but haunting images (the mother's murder from that film is still with me).

When I first heard that these movies were to be made I tried to keep my expectations under control, but these films turned out to be far better than I could have reasonable expected. I never expected Citizen Kane, but I think these films stand head and shoulders above anything else that has been produced in this genre in a long, long time. Certainly, there are things I would like to see tweaked, and I don't mind talking about them, but I find dwelling them beyond all the things that were done so well to be rather silly.

Anyway, on to my thoughts on the added scenes. On the whole I find them on much the same level as the extended versions of the other two films (I'm not, as a whole, much of a fan of extended cuts). Some scenes I love, some I could do without. I posted what I thought of the scenes on my Journal at Rotten Tomatoes, so if people don't mind, I'll paste them here.

The Voice of Saruman (A+): Absolutely marvelous! I was worried a bit about this scene, especially after seeing a production shot quite some time ago of Saruman impaled on one of those spikey wheels, but my worries were groundless. Lee was great, originally emerging consolatory but then spitting venom when he realizes that isn't going to work. There is some really nice dialogue here (much of which comes straight from the book) including Saruman telling Theoden that he is a lesser king than the ones that came before, which plays very well into later events with this character. I thought moving the deaths of Saruman and Wormtongue from The Shire to Isengard worked very well. I'm not exactly sure how one can have a conversation with someone who's about 300 feet in the air, but Saruman's tumble more than made up for that little issue. I really liked Jackson's touch of having Saruman slowly disappearing below the water as well. Very nice!

Gimli's & Legolas' Drinking Game (B): This one worked for me. Although sometimes I think John Rees Davies' Gimli gets a little too silly (especially in the extended scenes) this wasn't one of them. Gimli turns out to be rather desturbing when drunk. "Swimming with hairy women"? Very weird, but what really made this scene worked is that it provided the mirth for the return to Edoras scenes, allowing Jackson to insert a change into Merry's and Pippin's song showing that the palantir is every present on Pippin's mind.

Eowyn's Dream (B+): In the book this dream was given to Faramir and it is interesting how the same words can now have such a different meaning. In the book it is Faramir remembering the destruction of Numenor, connecting this character to something more noble from the past. For Eowyn it is metephor for her despair and her inability to see the light of hope and happiness coming from behind her. I liked it.

Pippin's Departure (A-): There is some nice dialogue from Merry to Aragorn as they watch Gandalf and Pippin ride off, where he expresses his concerns and laments about being seperated from Pippin. It was the first extra bit that I wondered if it would have been better in the theatrical cut.

Minas Tirith (A): I like the lines of Theoden giving Gandalf crap for foolishly sending The Ring into Mordor. Saruman has some lines to this effect directed at Gandalf too, and I like these scenes that cast some doubt onto Gandalf's plans.

The Decline of Gondor (A): Nice little history lesson here with some extra great shots of the city.

Cross-roads of the Fallen King (C): These scene is very much as it is described in the book but it doesn't feel in it's right place here. Likely it would have worked better earlier in the film, but I don't think that fits there either. It's a nice little scene, but I think it's better off not being there.

Sam's Warning (C-): A superfluous scene of Sam warning Gollum that he'll be watching him and Frodo catching the tail end of the conversation. Of course, this is working towards Frodo eventually sending Sam off, but I don't think that needs any more scenes to support.

Invasion of Osgiliath (C+): An extra scene of the orcs shooting a guard from a tower as they cross the river which only begs the question, how can the orcs spot a guard in an unlit tower window when that same guard has touble seeing a fleet of torch lit barges coming his way? This begs the further question, if you were sneaking across a river, why would you light your barges with torches? There is some extra dialogue between Faramir and his second in command (I can't remember his name) which works as that guy gets killed fairly soon. The extra scenes are okay, but nothing to go on about.

Merry Pledging to Theoden (B): Another nice little scene. We need more Merry but I can understand why, in the theatrical cut, we need to stay with the more major characters which are Frodo and Aragorn. There's also a bit with Merry struggling to get his pony going and Legolas talking of battles coming to other areas of Middle Earth.

The Wizard's Pupil (A+): An extra scene where Denethor berates Faramir for not bringing The Ring to him. This scene also has a powerful moment where Denethor has a delusion of Boromir being in the room. The scene works exrtremely well at expressing the relationship between Faramir and Denethor, as well Denethor insanity. Very well acted by John Noble and executed by Jackson. In my opinion, this is a best of the added scenes.

Peregrin of the Tower Guard (A): Very nice scene between Pippin and Faramir, connected these two characters together and further allowing us to understand the change in character of Pippin when he resues Faramir from Denethor's Pyre.

Marshalling at Dunharrow (D+): There are some extra lines from Eomer telling Eowyn that war is the domain for men. He is speaking as to why Merry (a hobbit) should not come to Minas Tirith, but we know the second meaning behind the line. Personally, I think the conversation was better when it ended with Eowyn's line, "why can't he fight for those he loves". The way it is in the extended cut, it almost seems that Eowyn's decision to ride with the Rohirrim is in reaction to Eomer. "Oh yeah, I'll show you big brother."

Aragorn Takes the Paths of the Dead (A): Aragorn's last line to Eowyn is now, "I've wished you joy since first I saw you", which works so well now that we will be getting a resolution to Eowyn's story.

Dwimorberg-The Haunted Mountain (C+): There is also some extra lines in the Legolas history lesson which, I suppose, makes the paths seem creepier.

Paths of the Dead (C-): Both good and bad in here. I like the extra scenes of Legolas describing the dead following them and Gimli getting more and more afraid, though Gimli's antics get a little too silly. We then get treated to the avalanche of skulls which chases our heros out the other side. After, it seems that Aragorn failed in getting the Dead to follow but then the King of the Dead emerges saying, "We'll fight". I'm neither here nor there about the scenes themselves but personally, I thought the it worked much better ending as it did in the theatrical cut, where it is left unsaid whether Aragorn succeeded or not.

The Siege of Gondor (A-): There are extra scenes building up to the appearance of Grond, the huge battering ram. The scenes include shots of orcs using a smaller battering ram that is completely ineffective against the gates. This does bring up the question, if you have this huge battering ram which is obviously built specifically for this purpose, wouldn't you have brought used it right away in the first place? Either way, the scenes work well for the DVD because Grond's appearance marks the end of the first disk and it makes it really feel like an end of a part 1.

The Corsairs of Umbar (B): Okay, this scene got a giggle out of me. I figure if you are going to let the audience know that the Dead are going to fight for Aragorn, you should be giving us them attacking the Corsairs. I'm fine with this little bit.

Merry's Simple Courage (A): Nice scene between Merry and Eowyn which really works to show Eowyn seeing some light in the tunnel that she is in.

The Tomb of the Stewards (A): Some good extra dialogue from Denethor showing his state of mind a little more clearly. There is also a neat shot of a single blossom blooming on The White Tree.

The Witch King's Hour (C-): The shot of Gandalf confronting the Witch King was featured prominently in the original trailers for the film, and it looked gorgeous, and the truth is, it is. There is nothing wrong with the scene itself but it is a classic example of how a good scene does not necessarily mean it makes the movie better. The arrival of the Rohirrim is much better in the theatrical cut. The whole city appear lost. Gandalf is yelling, "fight to the last man," and then the horns sound. We get Theoden's great speech, they charge and then we get Pippin finding Gandalf, the two ride off to rescue Faramir and we cut back to the charging Rohirrim. There is just so much energy on the screen this way. The Witch King scene forces this to be changed and the result is a far less dynamic presentation of the events that are unfolding. The whole is not always the sum of it's pieces.

The Pyre of Denethor (A): One extra line from Denethor before he drops the torch: "You may triumph on the field of battle for a day, but against the power that has risen in the east there is no victory". I really like it.

The Battle of Pelenor Fields (C-): Some extra fighting shots which do little to add to the development of the battle and merely make it longer (like it wasn't already plenty long). Better moments include Merry having a nice kill and Theoden seemingly catching a glimps of Eowyn just before the Witch King attacks.

Victory at Minas Tirith (D-): There is a silly extra scene where the wounded Gothmog (the Elephant Man like orc commander) is closing in on the wounded Eowyn only to be cut down by Aragorn and Gimli steamroller. Pretty dumb and better being absent.

The Houses of Healing (B): Nice scene of Eomer finding Eowyn followed by a short montage of Aragorn healing Eowyn and her rising and seeing Faramir. I know purists will balk at this one, but considering the time constraints (even in a 4 hour plus film) I thought they did a nice job. The thing to remember is that they never shot this stuff intending there to be an extended cut of the film. This was shot because they felt they may be able to get it into the theatrical cut, and thus they knew there wouldn't be the time to do anything like what was in the book. My one complaint about the scene is that someone who has not read the book would be left pretty confused as to why Eowyn was so sick. The movie never provides a reason.

Pippin Finds Merry (B-): The scene is shifted to the night time (oh, those tricky colour graders). Nothing wrong with the scene, but by this point the extra minutes are starting to add up. We need to get back to Frodo and Sam.

Aragorn & The Palantir (A): Nice scene which really shows how Aragorn is drawing Sauron away from Frodo and Sam. I like the inclusion of the dieing Arwen. That palantir is a nasty machine!

Faramir & Eowyn (A-): The scene is fine and works to give a conclusion to Eowyn, which was certainly missing from the theatrical cut. Even though this scene is short, you can really feel how it detracts from what was going on with Frodo and Sam and at the Black Gate. Tolkien himself moved the scene until after the climax at Mount Doom, which works much better, but Jackson didn't have the same kind of freedom when it comes to nonlinear story telling.

In the Company of Orcs (D): Tolkien had this scene because he needed to have something happen to Frodo and Sam as they crossed Gorgoroth. This film doesn't need it as it serves no real purpose. It's done fine enough, it just doesn't seem to have a point.

The Land of Shadow (C+): There is an extra, brief scene of Frodo and Sam throwing away their gear, but it doesn't seem to carry the same weight as it does in the book. On extra shot of Sam looking longingly at his cooking gear before he throws it into the fisure would have been enough for me.

The Mouth of Sauron (A-): I think The Mouth was one of their best bits of design in the whole trilogy. This guy creeps me out. I think Aragorn decapitating him is a bit much (and not very statesman like at that). Sending him off with his tail between his legs as it happens in the book would have been better, but I like how it sets up their despair over thinking that Frodo is dead.

H.C.
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Old 12-20-2004, 08:40 PM   #65
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Television Idea

This is something fun I figured out just today.

I added up the total times of the three extended editions (without the closing credits) and they almost perfectly make sixteen, standard, one hour (ie. 44 minutes) television episodes. I even took some time to work out where the breaks in the episodes would be and most of them worked out fairly well.

So, who has those network connections?

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Old 12-20-2004, 10:06 PM   #66
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I loved it! And...TWO easter eggs! I've only found one each on FotR and TTT...
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Old 12-20-2004, 11:27 PM   #67
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Oooh, where are the easter eggs???? I can't even find any in FOTR and TTT, even though I know where to look
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Old 12-21-2004, 07:54 AM   #68
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Easter Eggs

The Easter Eggs are hidden in much the same way as on the other extended editions, so if you were unsuccessful before I'm not sure this will help.

Aren't there some contries that don't have them on? I'm seem to recall hearing that they (or some) weren't there in the UK.

Number 1: Disk 1 -> Select a Scene -> go to the numbers on the left and select 33-36 -> scroll down to 36. The Siege of Gonder but don't select, just press down one more time and a gold ring should appear at the bottom of the screen. Now press Enter.

This is a very funny fake interview by Dom Monighan with Elijah Wood.

Number 2: Basically do the exact same thing but on disk 2. This one is a not quite as funny, but still entertaining fake pitch to Peter Jackson to create a sequel.

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Old 12-21-2004, 08:23 AM   #69
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1420!

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Quote:
But it got such a cheer, at least from the audience I was with. Don't take this the wrong way, but if I directed a movie that got that kind of reaction from an audience, I would know I did it right.
Same happened to the theatres I went to. I undertsand why PJ had the Steward punching bag, just don't agree with it.
Quote:
The Pyre of Denethor (A): One extra line from Denethor before he drops the torch: "You may triumph on the field of battle for a day, but against the power that has risen in the east there is no victory". I really like it.
Yes, that is a great line, and eventhough they didn't show Denethor with the Palantir, that is a hint he had it.
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Old 12-21-2004, 08:49 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boromir88
Yes, that is a great line, and eventhough they didn't show Denethor with the Palantir, that is a hint he had it.
Yeah, I was hoping to see a bit of the Minas Tirith palantir as well but you would have had to invest some time to make sure it didn't get confused with the Orthanc stone.

Imagine if all of a sudden Denethor just pulled it out, the first reaction from the audience would be questions like, "how'd he get that from Gandalf?". You could establish that they were different (different colours maybe), but then you would have to provide some history as to why there were more than one and how they were distributed. A wizard having a "crystal ball" is something an audience will take without explanation, but when you give one to someone else you have to then get into how he has it.

I would guess the questions Jackson and company have to ask themselves are one, how much time should we devote to a explaining secondary character and two, do we really need to have the second palantir in the film to explain events. Denethor is one of my favourite (if not the favourite) character from the book. I find him so tragic and I love how his own father shuned him in favour of another (ironically Aragorn himself in the guise of Thorongil) and now Denethor cowed by the images from the palantir is doomed treat his own son in the same way.

Obviously, all this (and more) couldn't be brought in so they decided to just take the angle that the eldest son was the favourite of Denethor and that his death has pushed him over the edge - which isn't entirely untrue. This renders the second palantir as a needless complication. This simplifies and over vilifies Denethor but I do believe that the time and energy that would have had to be put into portraying this character with the depth he has would have been prohibitive. In the end, I'm happy with Denethor's portrayal mostly because I loved John Noble's performance and I thought that feeling of despair (which I think is the most important thing to get across) was presented very well, especially with the extended scenes.

By the way, I always took the line, "do you think the eyes of the White Tower are blind", to be another reference to the Minas Tirith Palantir.

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Old 12-21-2004, 10:51 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boromir88
Same happened to the theatres I went to. I undertsand why PJ had the Steward punching bag, just don't agree with it.
I hear you. It got an eye roll from me as well, but probably a smile too.

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Old 12-21-2004, 02:37 PM   #72
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Mouth of Sauron

I preferred the book version where the MOS rode off to a destiny unknown. It mirrors the Morgoth/Sauron relationship/ending, and it leaves a higher lever bad guy for Aragorn's progeny to deal with in the Fourth age. This is probably obvious, but I see Tolkien writing a 'history' that leads to our modern day world, and so in each age we get further away from the 'magical' beings - orcs becoming more 'mannish,' the disappearance or absorption of the little folk, etc.

Also, I agree that Aragorn beheading the MOS is out of character and more of a time saver for the film.
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Old 12-21-2004, 02:43 PM   #73
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About those mysterious lines at the end of the credits, thanking all the people that made the movie possible:
Quote:
Originally posted by Iaurhirwen:

Me Mahara Tonu Tatou Nga Uri-Apakura No Tuanuku Nei,
No te Waoto, te tu kekehua ana o nga Eldarin kua Hohou mai i te Uri-Moaka


Of course, we can all recognize the word Eldarin, but I am curious as to the actual meaning of the phrase. To me, it reminds me more of Japanese than of Elvish, but what do I know. I believe that I got the quote correct, I could never pause the DVD in the right place so the image was always a little blurry. Any ideas as to the meaning????
My guess is that this language could be Maori (the language of the native people of New Zealand) because it was mentioned somewhere in the appendices that there were Maori people working as statists, and even a chorus of Maori somewhere, if I remember rightly.(In Moria I believe)
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Old 12-22-2004, 01:42 PM   #74
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the critical mind is the creative mind ;)

The extra scenes in ROTk and the additions to the old scenes, seemed...rushed, for lack of a better term. There was no enrichment added to the story, although there were notable exceptions, some of them being the scene where Gandalf talks about Minas Tirith and its kings (originally Faramir's lines), the Crossroads scene, the Merry - Eowyn interaction on the way to Gondor (I really loved that scene). But all in all, these new scenes were short or dissapointingly short (Houses of Healing scene, the Faramir-Eowyn scene).

And my least favourite scene -and I guess nobody will argue with that is Aragorn killing off the Mouth of Sauron. That is just so senseless and stupid, in doesn't make any sense, no matter the context you'd want to put it in. There is nothing redeemable about that hollywoodian out-of-character (for Aragorn) scene. That really makes me mad, and I'll never get tired of criticising the guts out of that scene and other bad scenes like that one. Because that scene spoils the following scene for me as well, especially the For Frodo bit. It sounds like revenge now, like yea 'let's kick their butts for doing this to us", not like noble sacrifice.

I wouldn't mind those bad scenes if everything else was as bad or mediocre. But I know that PJ and team can better that, I've seen what they can do. They can do wonderful, in character scenes, even if they don't always go by the book. And in this case, such blatant disregard for a character's personality and esentially for the values the good guys stand for (A messanger is never killed - that is one of the unwritten rules of old that someone would expect Sauron to break but never Aragorn) is inexcusable. Compare this with the dignified attitude that so humiliates the Mouth of Sauron and makes him retreat, defeated, from the book.

The bad scenes muddy the good scenes too, you can't just overlook them.
Imagine for instance, listening to a song of your favourite band and hearing in the background among the sounds you love, 'oops I did it again' or something like that.
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Old 12-22-2004, 02:01 PM   #75
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I thought the exchange between Faramir and Pippin about Pippin's armor contributed a great deal, and made Pippin's awareness of and participation in the rest of Faramir's story make sense.

In the book, it's Gandalf who retrieves Faramir from the burning bier; in the movie it's Pippin-- why? MoviePip's sense that he was wearing Faramir's past makes it more believable.
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Old 12-22-2004, 05:36 PM   #76
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Tolkien

Quote:
Me mahara tonu tatou nga Uri-apakura no tuanuku nei, no te waotu, te tu kekehua ana o nga eldarin kua hohou mai i te uru-moana
TRANSLATION:
Let us dedicate our memories to the spirits of the Eldar who came to us from the Ocean that lies to the West.

guinevere you are right it is in Maori.
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Old 12-22-2004, 08:05 PM   #77
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Silmaril Short but sweet?

Well I liked them all, with the exception of the silly skull avalanche.
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Old 12-25-2004, 10:06 PM   #78
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The worst part about EE is now I have nothing to look forward to moviewise.
All in all it was great, some have said the scenes don't flow well in some parts, but even so the added scenes were great. My biggest beef was Aragorn taking off the head of the Mouth of Sauron. The man just cannot keep that sword to himself. My second biggest beef was Faramir and Eowyn's story. I was so glad it was put in, but it's not enough for me. I want to see more of them! But the scene with them was real sweet.
The best added scene for me was Eomer finding Eowyn on the battlefield. Karl Urban's performance made me cry. All in all this EE was my favorite.
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Old 12-27-2004, 12:48 PM   #79
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I finally saw it. I must admit that I am, as usual, rather casually sitting on the fence as regards positives and negatives. Indeed, I have rated several of the posts on this thread, some very different in opinion to others. I'll comment on a few things, although I get the feeling I'm pretty much repeating what others have said.

Pippin/Faramir scene - Love it. My favourite added part without question.

Saruman - Really liked the dialogue betwixt Saruman and Theoden. I also was not too upset by Legolas' involvement in the death of Grima. Not too bad.

Mouth of Sauron - He, I liked. Loved the way he moved, the style of words he used. Also agree that Aragorn should have chastised him rather than beheaded him.


What I am most disappointed with was the final outcome of the battle of Pelennor fields. I had slight hope that they would shake things up a bit and make it all fit in more comfortably. Why, oh why, could they not have had Theoden's death, Eowyn's injury, and Eomer's wrath like it was supposed to be. I guess this isn't really anything to do with the Extended DVD but I still had a little bit of hope.

Also, there were quite a few silly little things that really should not have been there. Drinking game, the attempt at blowing away the ghosts (pardon the word-choice) and the river of skulls.

The skulls really confused me. It appeared as if the Ghosts were trying to kill the Three Heroes, and then moments later they agreed to join forces with them.
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Old 12-27-2004, 03:14 PM   #80
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At last I have watched the EE so many times that I'm ready to share a few thoughts about it. First and foremost I think there could have been much more enhanced (or completely new) scenes. Now that I've watched the extras and heard that they were going to put a little "what happened to each member of the Fellowship" scene in it, I'm disappointed with the otherwise grand ending. That bothers me a bit since it's not just an ending for RotK but for the whole trilogy.

'Cause we all know that we are dealing with a master piece here, I might as well concentrate on the scenes I think to have some flaws
The Mouth of Sauron...He looked perfect when the Black Gate opened and he rode out all by himself. But then. Why, oh why does he have to twitch like he had a little cramp in his neck. That together with his way to talk makes him look ridiculous rather than scary or eerie and spoils the mood. Of course Aragorn has to start swinging his brand new sword so rashly that he chopps MoS's head of. I think that a heir of great kings and a foster child of a mighty elf should know that one shouldn't toy with sharp items. There was absolutely nothing kingly or noble in the way he treated the messenger.

Phew! It felt good to let out some steem. Now I can start afresh a new rant about Eowyn fighting Gothmog. Well, actually, that scene doesn't irritate me that much. It's rather the scene where Eowyn draggs herself trying to escape from Gothmog. It's so wrong! The climax with the Witch King and Eowyn's and Theoden's heart-breaking farewell come crushing down when some deformed pink chunk starts chasing her. Then our beloved "Jack-of-all-trades" (aka Aragorn) and the official comic relief (that'd be Gimli) save the day and kill Gothmog in a quite brutal way. I expected the whole time that it would be Theoden who gets to kill him (due to the way things happened in the books) or then at least Eomer.

One thing I wondered about was why Gandalf seemed so grumpy in the scene where he and Pippin were discussing on the balcony though Pippin was clearly feeling uneasy about the coming battle. It's good that finally Gandalf puts his hand on Pippin's shoulder to comfort him. Maybe it's the movie makers' way to remind the viewers of wizards being subtle and quick to anger or what ever the original phrase was.

In spite of my quite negative post I enjoyed almost every new minute that was in the film. Wonderful parts were, to name a few, the House of Healing (how couldn't you just adore those two lovers!), Eomer finding Eowyn on the battle field (my eyes got teary) and the little scene between Pippin and Faramir concerning Pippin's new armor. I also liked the fact that Arwen's song made it to this extended cut. She has such a beautiful voice.
Altogether, cheers and happy times with your EEs'!
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