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05-05-2009, 12:10 PM | #1 | |||
Cryptic Aura
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For in that sleep of death what dreams may come.
Or, more precisely, whose, and how?
This topic is about a real Barrow Downs dream--not to be confused with our own Barrow Downs dreams down Mirth-ways--the one Merry had after he, Pippin and Sam were taken by the Barrow Wight. The dream has been discussed in our chapter by chapter discussion of Fog on the Barrow Downs, particularly by Boro88, Estelyn Telcontar, davem, and Lalwende, but I think more can be said of the topic, so here goes. And bear with all the quotes! First, some context. Tom Bombadil has answered Frodo's call and come to rescue the hobbits from the dread and gloom of the Barrow Wight's horror. Sam, Pippin and Merry wake up and find themselves clothed in what could be the decayed remains of burial shrouds and relics of those who had been laid to rest in the Barrow. Quote:
Then, once the hobbits have recovered some warmth into their bodies, Tom completes the breaking and scattering of the spell of the mound (Tolkien's terminology) and raids the tomb, providing hobbits with special knives. Those who are rereading LotR know that the blade Merry carries is special, for it will be this blade that he uses to stab the Witch King and destroy the spell which protects the King of the Nazgul. Here's what Tom says about the blades as he distributes them. Quote:
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Also intriguing is Tom's statement that the spirits of those Men killed still wander the land, guarding and protecting the unwary. Is this an example of Men's fear remaining in Middle earth? Think of the recent discussion of Laws and Customs among the Eldar. So, how does Merry come to this dream? The supernatural effects of the burial grounds? The shroud with which the Barrow Wight draped him? A lingering fear trying to warn Merry? Past life regression? Any thoughts, wights?
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05-05-2009, 12:26 PM | #2 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Fascinating!
Initial thoughts...
I'm going to have to say no on the "Mannish reincarnation" theory because Men and Elves are normally set up as foils to one another; and even if this is hobbits we're talking about, mortals are a Primary World race so I think Tolkien would be wary of including things about their afterlife that were so diametrically opposed to his Primary World faith. Elves are supposed to be bound to the world, not Men--though obviously the point about some Mannish spirits lingering weakens my argument somewhat. I had always considered the case to be one of possession. All four hobbits in the books go through moments when they know not what they say, and then come to themselves afterwards. In the case of Sam and Frodo (in Shelob's lair) this seems to be something positive: either osanwe courtesy of Galadriel (idea stolen shamelessly from the CbC discussion) or maybe some sort of innate inner Elvishness buried deep in the subconscious suddenly manifesting itself*? But Merry's case seems to be a whole lot closer to Pippin's experience after he looks into the Palantir: harrowing to the hobbit and creepy to the reader. In the Necromancy thread some people have briefly touched on the idea of what exactly the Barrow-wights were. Could this have been a spirit waylaid by Sauron's power on his way to Mandos and bound there? And of course this still leaves the question: why Merry and not Pippin or Sam? *One could, perhaps, argue Merry's dream as an inner Dunadan manifesting itself, but that makes a lot less sense because it's so darn specific; and hobbits seem to have been influenced more by the Elves directly (at least in their distant past) than by Men influenced by Elves.
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05-05-2009, 01:27 PM | #3 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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In regards to this quote:
Quote:
And no on the reincarnation as well. Merry, due to the spell of the Wight, was seeing a vision of the past. Assumedly the Palantíri can see into the past. This means that 'the past' can be 'seen,' much like watching home movies - pull one out of the cabinet, place it in the VHS or DVD viewer and - poof! - you get your vision of the past. Anyway, so Merry, while waiting to be sacrificed by the Wight, was being tortured as well by having to watch some home wight movies.
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05-05-2009, 02:23 PM | #4 | ||
Shade of Carn Dűm
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I don't believe in the lingering mannish fear, and certainly not in past life memories. But I believe the Barrow-Downs, the place itself had its own memories, much like Hollin: Quote:
Inanimate objects seem to keep memories of their own: Narsil "remembers" so to say killing Sauron, Gurthang remembers the slaying of Beleg etc... that's why heirlooms have such value. Remember how Tom took the brooch of some unknown lady from the same hoard? Perhaps it was not a simple memento, but also could induce some vivid memories? |
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05-05-2009, 03:13 PM | #5 | |
Late Istar
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Bethberry wrote:
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Of course, there are a very few exceptions, but these are all very special and very well recorded cases. Beren was reincarnated, but only before his spirit 'sought elsewhither' and left Arda. Turin is prophecized to return at the Dagor Dagorath, 'returning from the Doom of Men' - but this is of course a one-shot, as it were, and doesn't come about until the world's end. Gandalf was sent back by Iluvatar, but only because he had a very particular mission to fulfill and because he was, after all, really a Maia and merely incarnated in human form. Moreover, Tolkien eventually rejected rebirth even for the Elves, opting instead for literal reincarnation; their adult bodies were simply re-created. It seems to have been philosophical considerations that lead him to this. That isn't to say that human fear can't perhaps linger in the world in some cases before taking Iluvatar's Gift and departing. We certainly see that in the Dead Men of Dunharrow, for instance, and I think in the Barrow-wights as well. I have always assumed that a houseless fea living in the barrow was attempting to take control of Merry's hroa, and in the process momentarily imparted its memories to him. Interestingly, though, the Barrow-wights themselves don't seem to be houseless fear - it seems they still control their (un)dead bodies. Or perhaps, being dead, they are no longer inextricably attached to their corpses, and the fea of the Barrow-wight was seeking to take control of the stronger hroa of one of the Hobbits. |
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05-05-2009, 03:44 PM | #6 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Most interesting topic!
A pity I'm not sure if I will be able to think of it enough now to contribute much, but at least something... Quote:
Moreover, I would find any ideas of reincarnation in Middle-Earth dismissed by what is said in the Appendices about the Dwarves - there is something about Durin and the Dwarves believing that he returns from time to time (indeed, reincarnates) - and the comment after this sentence is something like "because they have many strange beliefs", which basically says "well you see, Dwarves are weird, they believe in something us Hobbits - and Men and Elves, relatedly, because that's who we are writing this for - find really weird".
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05-05-2009, 04:10 PM | #7 |
Late Istar
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I think three varieties of return from the dead can be differentiated:
Rebirth: The spirit returns in the body of a newly-born infant. This was Tolkien's original idea for the Elves, and apparently for the Dwarf-fathers, but was later dropped for metaphysical reasons. This is sometimes called 'reincarnation' in the context of Hinduism, Buddhism, etc., but I don't think Tolkien every referred to it that way. Reincarnation: A new (adult) body is made, fully formed, for the returning spirit. This was Tolkien's later idea for the manner of the Elves' return from death. Resurrection: The original body, still intact, is re-inhabited by the spirit. This was apparently Tolkien's later idea for the manner of the Dwarf-fathers' return (from, I believe, 'Of Dwarves and Men'). The names could perhaps be quibbled with (and actually, I don't recall Tolkien using the word 'resurrection'), but I think the different concepts are clearly delineated. The Turin and Gandalf examples are clearly reincarnation. The Beren example was either reincarnation or resurrection. But the important points are that: 1. Tolkien eventually rejected the idea of 'rebirth' entirely, and 2. the occurrence of any of these things for the spirit of a human is quite exceptional. |
05-06-2009, 04:48 AM | #8 | |
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This concept seems to me to apply to resurrected Elves and Gandalf (and, as a human exception, Beren); I tend to agree with those who consider the Barrow situation as something completely different: a kind of inhabitance, something like possession.
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05-06-2009, 10:11 AM | #9 | |
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Quote:
I think the concept is rather: Resurrection - a dead person is brought back to life again, but in a different quality (absolutely perfect example: Gandalf. Parallel: [Judeo]-Christian term of resurrection) Reincarnation - in the sense of rebirth: the same person is born again anew in a new body - similar to the former, but a new one still - as a baby (typical example: Dwarven belief of all the Durins returning - I guess they were reborn as babies, or it seems so logically from the narration in the Appendices: it was not so that a fully grown Durin VII. would all of a sudden appear among people. Parallel: Hindu term of reincarnation) The Barrow scene was really, in my opinion, something like possession, just as Esty said: Merry's memories got sort of mixed with the thoughts of the spirit. As for why it was Merry who was so prone to all these things, he always stroke me as the most "deep" of all the Hobbits, in the sense of "having close to the metaphysical" - well, of course, with the exception of Frodo - but Merry was the one who kept meeting the Nazgul all the time (in Bree, on Pelennor) and generally being the most "thoughtful", or so it seemed to me. So why not him...
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05-06-2009, 11:32 AM | #10 | |||
Loremaster of Annúminas
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Quote:
Quote:
and Quote:
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05-06-2009, 11:43 AM | #11 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Nice, but uncanonical. Because the canonical works oppose that:
Quote:
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05-06-2009, 12:49 PM | #12 | |||
Late Istar
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Quote:
Quote:
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I do think, however, that a case could be made that LotR, being drawn from the Red Book of Westmarch, and essentially based on Numenorean and Elvish lore as understood by Hobbits, might not be the ultimate authority on the Dwarvish afterlife. |
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05-06-2009, 01:11 PM | #13 | |
Cryptic Aura
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Wow, this thread has run on! Great to see it sparked such good comments.
I tend to agree, as Aiwendil put it, that the fundamental difference between the fates of Men and Elves would be a very strong case against the fea of a fallen Man being responsible for Merry's dream. However, I want to add another pot to this kettle or, rather, relate these concepts of reincarnation to what Verlyn flieger callsa larger theme running through Tolkien’s major works, that the past is not just tributary to the present, but also inhabits and immediately affects it. Particularly interesting is Tolkien's use of the dream memory. Quote:
Tom Shippy suggested that Merry takes on the personality of a body in the barrow. It can't be one of the Witch King's Men from Carn Dum, for they won the battle (which wasn't fought on the Downs, anyway, but farther north, as I recall) and Merry's dream comes from one among those who lost and who was ritually buried in some kind of royal--the golden circlet--barrow. The Appendix suggests this is a prince. Somehow, not an ancestral voice, but a voice connected by experience with the Dark Lord speaks into Merry's unconscious mind. And then, later, when Merry meets Theoden in Rohan, he speaks of his relationship to the King as like that of a father and son. I've always thought that a bit odd, responding to a foreign king with filial feelings. Can it be that one who died at the hands of the Witch King long ago reaches out to Merry, who will worst the Witch King. Or was the memory imbedded in the Barrow Downs themselves. The Downs were a portal to the past, after all, and in LotR even rocks may have memories.
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05-06-2009, 01:14 PM | #14 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Well I am not opening anything, but the point was rather that some people consider HoME completely uncanonical, some people don't, but all consider LotR canonical. And when LotR and HoME conflict, people of course take LotR: and LotR says what I just quoted.
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05-06-2009, 01:26 PM | #15 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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I don't accept 'canonicity' as a useful term when discussing Tolkien. The most we can say is that "he said X at this time, and Y at this time." We can go further where Y clearly supplanted X, as in successive drafts of the same story. But I see no reason to discount Tolkien's latest considered opinion on a matter just because an (apparent) other opinion saw print in the 1950s.
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05-06-2009, 01:36 PM | #16 | |
Spirit of Mist
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Bethberry asks,
Quote:
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05-06-2009, 01:49 PM | #17 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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Well, not osanwe, which was a transferance of verbal or pre-verbal thought, experienced by the recipient as a 'voice.' Osanwe didn't transmit sense-data.
Tolkien it seems viewed body and soul in incarnates as partaking somewhat of each other's nature, being made for each other; in Elves, ultimately their faded hroar would exist merely as memories imprinted on their fear. I think it not unlikely that, under the magic of the barrow, a corpse would retasin some imprint of its last living thoughts, and that these would have been picked up by the animating wight, perhaps passed on through a series of possessed bodies- of which Merry perhaps was targeted to be the next. Of course T had thought none of this through when he wrote this chapter (which was never really revised); one thought he had at the time that Black Riders were Barrow-wights, or closely related
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05-06-2009, 01:58 PM | #18 |
Pilgrim Soul
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I wonder if Merry's experience at Bree, so soon after is significant - when 'He seemed to be asleep. "I thought I had fallen into deep water," he says to me, when I shook him' (Nob) adnhe says "I had an ugly dream". Aragorn says it is the Black Breath (and Eowyn has bad dreams when she experienced it also). Maybe Merry is more sensitive to such things either generally (as a Bucklander closer to the edge of the Shire and more aware of the dangers beyond, and also more curious and educated than most), or made more sensitive by his experiences in the Barrow.
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05-06-2009, 03:34 PM | #19 |
Cryptic Aura
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Nice idea, Mithadan, but as WCH has already pointed out, osanwe kenta was "direct thought transference" and Merry felt the blade in his heart and not just remembered it.
Also, I thought that the ability had atrophied down the years--ages--once language had developed and that by the Third Age only very few had the ability. We are told how Melkor was able to instill his thought, but was osanwe possible with unconscious minds? Further, it seems a bit of a canonical conundrum to point to an essay Tolkien wrote c. 1959 when the Barrow Downs chapter was written in 1938, between Lost Roads (1936) and the Notion Club papers (1945-46). I think WCH has already said this. Mithalwen, I think it is interesting that Merry's explanation at Bree concerns being overwhelmed by deep waters.
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05-06-2009, 03:39 PM | #20 |
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Because of the strong link between water and death in Middle Earth?
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05-06-2009, 05:22 PM | #21 | |
Cryptic Aura
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Quote:
As for the fine tunings of rebirth, reincarnation, resurrection it strikes me that Flieger is right when she suggests that Tolkien modified the theologically difficult question of reincarnation to the less problematic concept of memory time travel or that term he used in the Letters, hoarding memory (if I am recalling it correctly).
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05-07-2009, 02:31 AM | #22 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Quote:
Firstly the dream happened after the Wight had already been chased away by Tom. Secondly the WK sent the Wights from Angmar to inhabit the Barrows after the Plague of 1636, while the fighting Merry dreamed of and the fall of the Last Prince of Cardolan happened in 1409 - more than 200 years before the coming of the wights. By this time, the fear of the buried Dunedain would be long gone to Mandos. So how would the Wight itself learn the details of the fighting? |
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05-07-2009, 06:33 AM | #23 |
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Oh I do. There seem to be a disproportionate number of drownings, shipwrecks, being lost in snow and ice, let alone Boromir's funeral, dear bought fish and Legolas's message from Galadriel being interpreted as speaking openly of his death. Any body of water larger than a bathtub seems inherently perilous.
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
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05-07-2009, 01:37 PM | #24 | |||
Cryptic Aura
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Quote:
You would see water more generally and I would see its applications. Drowning of course is an important theme. But snow and ice! Come now, it is not their aqueous properties that are a danger but their temperature (or lack thereof). What fishers of Rings there are. Yes, Isildur and the Anduin had a fateful meeting, but it was the Ring's choice to leave his finger which ruined his plan (aside from his own intransigence), and it was poisoned orc arrows that killed him, not the River. And the tributary Gladden River was merely the scene of the conflict between Smeagol and Deagol; it was again the Ring that was perilous. And Boromir's funeral, there the water is not itself dangerous but symbolic of the journey out, birth beyond the limits of Arda. With The Forbidden Pool, Gollum risks death, but more importantly it provides an opportunity for Frodo to display what he has learnt of mercy. In The House of Bombadil (sorry, I know some would like to eliminate Tom and Goldberry from the book as well as the movie but I won't), water is a powerful agent of the healing which the hobbits receive. In Rivendell, Frodo's response to the elven song is to "dream of music that turned into running water." There is a white stream which flows through Edoras, the water of which is used to wash clean the stones of defilement from Wormtongue. The Ents and Huorns use water undammed to achieve victory over Saruman. And of course there is the famous Ent-draught itself with its amazing restorative powers. I suppose the cups out of which Merry and Pippin drank were smaller than a bath-tub, but the ent water itself is of a wider quantity. So I wouldn't say that water is always associate with death in Middle-earth, especially since it is the domain of Ulmo. Symbolically it can be purification, rebirth, or baptism, as well as doom. Water is liminal in LotR but not necessarily always perilous. But this takes us away from the topic. I first mentioned the details of Merry's experience under the influence of the Black Riders because it relates drowning with the dark side. It is Merry, after all, who dreams of drowning even under the safety and security of Tom and Goldberry. His is given Tolkien's personal nightmare and he is the one who helps overcome part of that dark despair. Quote:
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05-07-2009, 02:28 PM | #25 | |
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Quote:
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05-07-2009, 03:13 PM | #26 |
Cryptic Aura
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um huh. I hear maiar dancing on heads of treble clefs.
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05-07-2009, 05:50 PM | #27 | |
Dead Serious
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In Christian theology, anyway, baptism has always been associated with death. Baptism is the death to self, death to the old self--death that enables rebirth. When someone is pushed under the water (literally or figuratively) within the baptism ritual, this is their death, and the rising from the water is the rebirth. Within the context of Tolkien's Catholicism, this may in fact be a point wherein his faith shines through the cracks of Middle-earth. My point, regardless, is that insofar as there is something redemptive about water, this does not remove the association with death. Or, in other words, I agree with Mith.
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05-08-2009, 11:06 AM | #28 |
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[QUOTE=Bęthberry;595840]Ah now, your qualification of larger than a bathtub is as qualifying as my per se. I can't refer to the Bath Song!
So I wouldn't say that water is always associate with death in Middle-earth, especially since it is the domain of Ulmo. Symbolically it can be purification, rebirth, or baptism, as well as doom. Water is liminal in LotR but not necessarily always perilous. But this takes us away from the topic. I first mentioned the details of Merry's experience under the influence of the Black Riders because it relates drowning with the dark side. It is Merry, after all, who dreams of drowning even under the safety and security of Tom and Goldberry. His is given Tolkien's personal nightmare and he is the one who helps overcome part of that dark despair. QUOTE] At the risk of going off topic it does say specifically in the prologue to LOTR that the Sea was a token of Death for hobbits. And while I accept that water can represent rebirth that surely must also imply Death! Anyway I may "have a thread coming on" so I will leave this for now..and that purveyor of sub-vogon poetry.
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05-08-2009, 03:40 PM | #29 | |||||
Cryptic Aura
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Rather than waiting any longer for others to reply, I want to thank Formy and Mith for their helpful contributions here.
It's good to have a Catholic perspective for those of us who aren't part of Roman rites. Quote:
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Thanks for reminding me of the point in the Prologue, though, as I also found something there which takes us back to the topic of Merry's barrow dream. Quote:
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05-08-2009, 08:13 PM | #30 |
Dead Man of Dunharrow
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In reference to the whole water/death thing that has been brought up, I would like to note that water is the barrier between Middle Earth and the Undying Lands. Sailing over the ocean as a metaphor for going to Heaven/the afterlife does not seem at all a far stretch.
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05-08-2009, 11:02 PM | #31 |
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I disagree. Merry was not actually feeling a blade in his heart, he only briefly "thought" he was. There is a great difference between the two. I don't believe sensory data was being transferred at all.
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05-09-2009, 08:28 AM | #32 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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Again, osanwe was essentially verbal. Think of Gandalf's "voice" in Frodo's mind on Amon Hen.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
05-09-2009, 08:44 AM | #33 | |
Cryptic Aura
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Quote:
As Esty suggested on the Chapter by Chapter thread, it appears to be the golden circlet that slips over his eyes that instigates the dream. Can inanimate objects use osanwe?
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05-09-2009, 09:09 AM | #34 | |
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05-09-2009, 12:12 PM | #35 | |
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
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05-10-2009, 02:41 AM | #36 |
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The Palantir that Denethor held retained the image of his burning hands, so it seems that physical objects can retain 'echoes' of events. But how that works is another question (I don't know whether Tolkien ever attempted to account for that effect.) I wouldn't favour the 'reincarnation' theory in Merry's case - as the sceptical Theosophist once said, "Of course I remember past lives - but are they mine?
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05-11-2009, 01:42 PM | #37 | ||
Cryptic Aura
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I wouldn't favour it either for Merry's dream. In the time travel stories, the link between past and present is far more elaborately developed. In Merry's dream, there is no way to account for a genetic or linquistic link between the person who had the experience and Merry. Quote:
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05-11-2009, 04:36 PM | #38 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,589
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But the spear wasn't.
I don't think we can say with such confidence that the circlet is what caused him to remember the dream. I don't think Merry was really awake. He was still largely under the Barrow Wight's spell.
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...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
05-11-2009, 09:09 PM | #39 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
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Not sure we need to look too long and deep for an explanation for Merry's dream/vision. Though Tolkien may not have read much on the topic, he - like most - are aware of how dreams work. If Merry were in a semi-sleeping state, and the Barrow Wight was 'talking 'bout the glory days,' these thoughts could have taken shape in Merry's dream state. Like when you watch a movie and later that night you dream of something from the same.
The Wight was most likely chanting about the good old days when they slew the King of Cardolan, and Merry, hearing this, dreamt of the same. Any small discomfort in his chest area could have been dreamed as the spear-thrust, like when your legs are in a cramped position and you dream that you cannot run. Sure, it's a magical world, and so we can add to this explanation, but needn't need to.
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05-12-2009, 12:19 AM | #40 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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So, we have two completely different ways of experiencing the same thing. The observer in the aircraft, has an extra freedom - he or she can choose to land at any point - in fact, if the aircraft is a helicopter, he or she could land at any point (a particular tree, or house) & then go back aloft & drop to any other point they chose. Think of the first observer as representing our everyday experience of time - one event following another. The second observer represents a kind of (theoretical) 'higher' consciousness above the first, but able to 'drop in' on any point. Except in Tolkien's use here this higher consciousness can 'drop in' to serial lives. This would merely be another possible interpretation (& a quite outlandish one at that) if Tolkien hadn't been exploring this idea if 'serial consciousnesses' in other works ("The Lost Road pre LotR & Notion Club Papers during a break from writing LotR). As with ideas about time which he was playing with during the writing of LotR (no time was to have passed while the Fellowship was in Lorien at one stagbe in the development of the story) what we have with Merry's experience is Tolkien exploring some very interesting ideas about what consciousness in & where it is 'located'. Clearly for Tolkien consciousness is not 'bound' to any particular place or time - Galadriel's Mirror allows both Frodo & Sam to see the future - how? Because in some way it enables their 'observer 1' consciousness to get into the aircraft, climb & look down at events from 'observer 2's' perspective. In the same way, Frodo's dream in Bombadil's house (where he sees the Undying Lands is actually a vision of the end of the Journey he is just beginning. He has got into the aircraft & is able to 'look down' on a different part of the River.) Or wone could use the analogy of a book - when we read a book we are in the position of observer one, following events serially, seeing what comes next. But the book we hold in our hands contains the whole story, & we could jump in at any point, experience the world of the story from the place & time of any of the characters - in fact, like Frodo we too could skip from 'The House of Tom Bombadil' to 'The Grey Havens' omitting completely the intervening 900 pages..... |
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