Battle of Dagorlad

[JeffF.]

Battle of Dagorlad

This battle has always fascinated me, the information for it has to be gleaned from many sources. This is a compilation of the information I’ve found and also my conclusions.

[ME=Middle Earth, S= The Silmarillion, H=The Hobbit, FR=Fellowship of the Ring, TT=The Two Towers, RK=Return of the King, UT=Unfinished Tales; FA, SA, TA = First, Second, Third Ages]

Sauron had attacked Gondor capturing Minas Ithil, Isildur fled to the North to seek aid from his father Elendil leaving Anarion to hold Gondor. Elendil and Gil-Galad form the Last Alliance of Men and Elves and spend years preparing and mustering their forces at Imladris (Rivendell). The force gathered there is “fairer and more splendid in arms than any that has been seen in ME and none greater has been mustered since the host of the Valar went against Thangorodrim.” The implication is that this force - which does NOT yet include the two armies of Silvan Elves, nor Durin’s Folk, nor the Army of Gondor - holding in the South - is the largest ever gathered by the Free Peoples except that of the Valar and LARGER and better armed than the Numenorean Armament whose very appearance early in the SA caused Sauron’s greatest servants to desert him (meaning even the Nazgul could not face the Numenorean force) and Sauron himself to surrender. The addition of these four armies strengthens this formidable force even further. It is difficult to see how the armies at Rivendell could be that large. The High Elves had suffered greatly in the wars of the previous ages and many survivors had returned to Aman as they had been summoned by the Valar after the breaking of Thangorodrim and the destruction of Beleriand (had the 3400 years+ of peace been enough for them to multiply and surpass their previous numbers?) while the Numenorean kingdoms of ME were only about a hundred years old and were based on nine shiploads of survivors of the Fall of Numenor to which existing colonies on the coasts of ME (Lond Daer and Umbar) should be added (some of these colonists became the Black Numenoreans serving Sauron).

The description of the Numenorean Army in UT (Disaster at Gladden Fields) is that they had few cavalry because of their great stature, that the horsemen they had were horse archers often of non-Numenorean descent. The Longsword was their primary weapon and they had excellent armor. Numenorean archers had steel bows but they were few (only 1/10 of Isildur’s force but that ratio was stated as small – perhaps the normal ratio was 1/5 or so). UT Description of Numenor states that they were well trained riders with excellent horses and that horse archery was a great sport so the Dunedain could be very effective cavalry should they choose. Since the kingdoms in ME were only about a hundred years old most of Elendil’s armies would be composed of non-Numenorean men under the rule of the Dunedain kings. These should be a mix of horse archers, swordsmen, spearmen, axemen. The Men of the Mountains failed to heed Isildur’s call and were later doomed to become the Dead Men of Dunharrow. Isildur’s eldest son Elendur – most like his grandfather Elendil – accompanied Isildur during the campaign while the next two eldest Aratan and Ciryon manned the (apparently) recaptured Minas Ithil (lost in Sauron’s initial attack) to prevent Sauron’s forces from escaping through that pass (Valandil, Isildur’s youngest was an infant and remained in Imladris. Anarion was accompanied by his son Meneldil (the last man born in Numenor), Elendil’s sons and grandsons probably commanded divisions.

Gil-Galad’s force is not described but it should be like previous forces of the Noldor including heavy cavalry, horse archers, spearmen and longbowmen and would include Sindarin elves. There would not be much difference in the effectiveness given that most of the Noldor would have been born in ME but some few who had seen the light of Aman and survived the many wars of the First and Second Ages would have great power (like Glorfindel in FR who is described by Gandalph as having great power stemming from him seeing the Light of Aman in the Blessed Realm) and the servants of Mordor, even the Nazgul, would have quailed before these few. It is worth noting that Gil-Galad, Cirdan, and Elrond would not have this power as they were all born in ME and never made the trip across the sea until they were killed or left ME for good.

According to UT this force is joined by two armies of Silvan Elves, one large army under Oropher from Greenwood (father of Thranduil) and a smaller army from Lorien under Amdir (AKA Magalad). These would have been typical Silvan forces of archers (short bows appropriate for forces used to fighting in forests) and spearmen (half and half). Oropher and Amdir would not place themselves under Gil-Galad’s command (there being hard feelings by their Sindarin lords for the Noldor whom they blamed for the destruction of Doriath). Both Silvan Elf forces made unwise attacks (probably being drawn out by some tactic of Sauron) and Amdir and much of his force was destroyed (the bodies of his warriors forever preserved in the Dead Marshes – Oropher’s force was greatly diminished, after the war his son Thranduil leading home only 1/3 of the Greenwood elves that marched South, while the remnants of Amdir’s force was less than half those who set out). These Silvan elves had suffered comparatively little in the SA wars and their host should be large in comparison with Gil-Galad’s army of Noldor and Sindar.

“Of the Dwarves few fought on either side but Durin’s kindred of Moria fought against Sauron,” (this implies that besides the Longbeards of Durin, the Firebeards (likely originally from Nogrod) and Broadbeams (likely originally from Belegost) who had both transferred much of their strength to Khazad Dum after the destruction of Beleriand and their home cities (as described in the Silmarillion), also fought with the Western forces and further implies that the houses of the other four Dwarf people were tricked or cajoled into sending forces to fight for Sauron. It would seem that this would have been a perfect time for the not mentioned Durin the IV to have reigned and that he and his weapon “Durin’s Axe” (mentioned in TT) would have played an important part in the war. Durin’s folk and their Firebeard and Broadbeam allies would have been a small but potent force and their presence would have likely caused dismay to the forces of dwarves fighting for Sauron.

“All living things were divided that day and some of every kind, even beasts and birds, were found in either host, save for the Elves only…” which implies that for some reason some orcs and trolls fought for the Last Alliance (I surmise that some cast off orcs left to die as infants for having less than classic orc traits survived and persuaded a few trolls – very impressionable creatures – to join them). We can safely assume that the Nazgul, not regarded as living creatures, enslaved to Sauron’s will, all fought for the Dark Lord. The statement also implies that other types of creatures were divided: that some Ents fought for the Sauron (not entirely unreasonable – Treebeard himself speaks of trees whose hearts had turned evil, why would some Ents not choose evil for whatever personal advantages or temptations), and that some Eagles fought for the Dark Lord. The “All living things” also surmises that Dragons were involved in the war and that not all fought for Sauron.

Admittedly the “All Living Things were divided” is hard to support. It implies that all animals and birds and even insects were involved in the battle. Technically it would even mean that plant life also somehow took sides (not just Huorns)! The statement would make more sense if it said that all people were divided except for the Elves (orcs and trolls would be considered ‘people’) and then separately state that even some beasts and birds could be found in either host. That way we wouldn’t have to wonder how some Wargs/wolves fought for the alliance or why some Eagles would fight for Sauron.

Sauron’s forces also are implied to have evolved. Earlier in the SA his forces refused to face the Numenorean armament and at Dagorlad they did. His forces must have gained confidence and strength. Sauron likely had been able to raise large orc armies and reinforced these with men (Easterlings and Haradrim) including a few Black Numenoreans led by Herumor and Fuinor who also gained great power over the Haradrim however Tolkein states that he struck before his power was rebuilt so his army was probably only slightly larger than the Alliance forces. The Black Numenoreans must have added to the quality of the arms and armor of the Haradrim and would serve as a core around which the other men would rally. Sauron’s force would not be as powerful as that of Morgoth, because he lacked the Balrogs of whom the Nazgul were only pale imitations of (and also they were far fewer in number than Morgoth’s Balrogs). Sauron also lacked the numerous cold-drakes, fire-drakes and flying dragons that his master could control. The “All Living Things…” statement seems to imply that some of the surviving dragons must have fought that day, the description of the Breaking of Thangorodrim shows that most of these were destroyed (appendix of LOTR states that some survived in the far north of ME).

One might wonder why Gil-Galad and Elendil spent several years at Imladris preparing their army and speaking as a soldier I would submit ‘logistics’ as the reason. Tolkein states in one of his History of ME notes that there was never a great store of food in ME (which explains why there appears to be such a low population density in ME). The host of Gil-Galad and Elendil must have numbered nearly 100,000 when finally joined with the Silvan elves, Dwarves and Army of Gondor which with the horses of the army would have required hundreds of tons of food and fodder a day. Tolkein also states that the “Brown Lands” were named such because of Sauron’s ‘Scorched Earth’ policy as he razed the lands through which the Alliance would have to advance. The left (East) bank of Anduin River would therefore not be able to support (feed and water) an advancing army. Gil-Galad and Elendil would therefore have to make logistical preparations for their army, the largest fielded by the Free Peoples, since the host of the Valar. These preparations would have included (but not limited to) getting the Dwarves of Khazad-Dum to build barges to carry supplies down Anduin River, contracting with the men and elves along Anduin to provide food and fodder, and coordinating with Anarion in Gondor for the provision of stores along the right (West) bank of the river up to Cair Andros. Anarion would have to undertake operations in North Ithilien to repair the road to the Black Gate, build and garrison forts which would serve as depots (for supplies) to support the advance when the Alliance Army would have to leave the river and make its way overland to Dagorlad. When one remembers that Tolkein stated that the distance between the Shire and Mordor is about the same distance between England and Bulgaria you get a better idea of the scope, scale and challenge that logistics for such a huge host faced. It would take years simply to plan the harvests needed to support such a host.

Sauron would have attempted to give himself as many advantages as possible, through collaborators and spies he would try to sew dissent or fear among the various armies, perhaps trying to get contingents to return home or prevent them from even mobilizing (like the Men of Dunharrow) or to get men to turn traitor in the midst of battle (as the Easterlings did at the Battle of Unnumbered Tears). Sauron would use spies and animal allies to scout out the strength of his enemies. He would prepare forces to surprise the Alliance by positioning them for flanking attacks and preparing tunnels through the Ash Mountains on either side of the Black Gate (which at this time did not have the Gondor built Towers of Teeth defenses nor the wall across the pass) to enable him to make sudden sorties on either side of the gate and preventing his forces from being bottlenecked as they issue out of the Black Gate itself. Sauron’s forces would be most effective if he could get the men, elves and dwarves to break their mass formation (which like phalanxes would be all but impregnable), he would prepare some tactic to entice contingents to burst forth in sudden wrath and break the integrity of their protective formations (as Morgoth did prior to the Battle of Unnumbered Tears) allowing his orcs and men to melee among the Alliance soldiers.

In my imagination (prepare yourself for Fan Fiction) I see the battle starting with the Alliance forces en masse before the Black Gate with the Dwarves and Noldor cavalry in reserve and Alliance horse archers on the Eastern Flank and to the rear to warn of any approaching Sauron forces. Sauron begins with seemingly great force before the gate with groups of heralds before them with hostages whom they kill within sight of the Alliance attempting to lure them into attacking. The Dunedain are too disciplined and the High Elves are familiar with this strategm and hold fast but the Silvan elves and their Sindarin lords, though warned by Gil-Galad, are too fiery and cannot take seeing the murder of their captured loved ones and rush out to attack (as described in UT). The battle becomes general as Gil-Galad and Elendil must advance to support the Silvan hosts because they cannot stand aside as their allies are slaughtered. Sauron sorties his main force through the Black Gate and the tunnels on either side as well as launching a flank attack by Easterlings advancing against the Alliance Left and Rear. Sauron’s dwarf host and his Black Numenoreans, all driven forward by the Nazgul, are particularly effective due to their superb weapons and cause some dismay. The Easterlings are delayed by the horse archers of the host and then engaged by the Noldor cavalry who were also held back for just such an occurrence. Durin leading his folk out of reserve (“Barak Khazad Khazad Aimenu! – Axes of the Dwarves, the Dwarves are upon you!” – Gimli’s battle cry from TT) throw the dwarf allies of Sauron into confusion and they refuse to fight the dwarves of their eldest Father; some turn on their previous orc allies while others march off unmolested by either side in close formation. Sauron loosed his last reserves, Trolls and a few Drakes issue forth from the Black Gate, wargs and wolves from the tunnels, Evil birds fly overhead and are joined by the few flying dragons Sauron has persuaded to his cause. The sudden onslaught rocks the Alliance host. Evil birds and flying dragons overhead are engaged by the Eagles and a few dragons who fight for the Alliance (more for hatred of Sauron’s dragons than any love for the Alliance). The Ents, because of Sauron’s destruction of the Entwives lands (The Brown Lands), unknown to the Alliance, have positioned themselves to intervene when their hated rivals the Trolls appear (Sauron used them to raze the Brown Lands). Forces of both sides move aside as the Ents charge against the Trolls who crumble before the rage of their more powerful adversaries. Bears, friends of the Silvan elves, (perhaps shape shifters like Beorn leading them) check the advance of the wolves and wargs. Sauron’s forces fall back in dismay even the Nazgul flee before the power of Glorfindel who leads the few elves like him who have the power bestowed by the Light of Aman. Sauron’s Captain – the High Nazgul - attempts to defend the Black Gate to hold the narrow passage and might have succeeded when suddenly a band of rebel orcs with a few Trolls who have joined them sortie from a tunnel flanking the Black Gate. These orcs are survivors of the previously unknown orc tradition of infanticide for goblin imps who are born without classic orc physical characteristics, they have nothing to lose as they are hated by all sides but due to the leadership of some unknown orc chieftain among them they vent their own hatred and fear against their orc kin. The Dark Lord’s defense at the Gate is broken and his forces stream back along the road to Bard-dur while his beast and dragon allies abandon him and his cause. [My description attempts to account for all of the statements written by Tolkein regarding the Battle of Dagorlad]

The battle itself would be the second largest ever fought in ME, larger than the Battle of Unnumbered Tears and second only to the battle where the Host of the Valar vanquished Morgoth and his armies. The “All living things were divided that day…” statement implies that the battle was fought in a single day. Taken as fact and combined with the result that Sauron was driven into Mordor to suffer siege within Barad-dur indicates that this was a decisive victory for the Alliance albeit very costly (as UT describes the casualties of the Silvan elves and LOTR description of the Dead Marshes). This is not surprising given the quality and size of the Numenorean and High Elven armies and their allies.

That Sauron was able to withstand the siege for seven years and launch “many sorties” implies that not all of Sauron’s army was destroyed at Dagorlad or that if his forces there were destroyed, he left back a strong garrison to protect his final fortress. There is no mention of Sauron allies attempting to relieve Barad-dur but it would make sense that some Easterling and Haradrim forces would try via the lands around the Sea of Nurn (since the passes were held by the Alliance). Otherwise it would make little sense for Sauron to send ‘many sorties’ out when the best use of his remaining forces would be to cause casualties to the Alliance as they continue to attack the nearly impregnable Barad-dur. Minor sorties would be sent out to destroy particularly effective siege engines but in general forces making sorties from besieged fortresses suffer almost as many casualties as they inflict. This paragraph deleted from post due to lack of capacity on thread]

The second greatest battle in ME was a decisive victory over Sauron but led to the indecision of the long siege, resolved only when Sauron himself issued forth in a last attempt to achieve victory by engaging his enemy leaders in personal combat.

[Rumil]

Hi JeffF,

absolutely excellent description of the campaign and the Battle of Dagorlad !!!

Who was it said that amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics? Reminds me of Napoleon's invasion of Russia in which enormous quantities of stores were prepared, but were found insufficient.

I agree that the 'all living things' comment must be partly metaphorical, otherwise I'd be most concerned by the rampaging flocks of Sauronic killer sheep and the perils of evil daffodils! Not 100% convinced by talk of rebel orcs, though might consider rebel trolls (after all Perry the Winkle's mate seemed pleasant enough ). Maybe it could be read as 'all free peoples', which also avoids the need for evil eagles and allied dragons. There might be giants on both sides and I agree the ents/huorns could be split, eg. Old Man Willow and his ilk. Interestingly no mention of any hobbits! The birds could be split also with crebain etc versus the thrushes and ravens in an aerial recce capacity.

I think the Black Numenoreans (the King's Men) may have made up a quite significant part of Sauron's forces, after all their main settlements were in Umbar and to the South, while the more northerly Numenorean outposts were mostly settled by the small proportion of the Faithful. Given that the army of Numenor had so over-awed Sauron & co earlier, I guess the Black Numenoreans would be very prominent (and probably took disproportionately large casualties, given their superior morale to orcs etc). Probably they would have had 'native contingents' of Haradrim etc subservient to their colonial masters.

I also think that there must have been a fairly large number of Beleriand veterans left with Gil-Galad, Cirdan and Elrond, possibly even a reasonable number of those that had seen the light of Aman. Lindon seems to have been a powerful kingdom during the Second Age, although weakened during the War of Sauron and the Elves to the point of needing Numenorean help.

On the Elven and Numenorean cavalry I'd imagine that they were fully accomplished in both horse-archery and melee tactics, able to do either as the situation demanded. Similar to Ancient cataphracts but not so heavily laden down with horse armour I'd guess. 'Of Men and Dwarves' might imply that the dwarves had human horse-archer allies, possibly the proto-eotheod?

Was impressed by your reconstruction of the battle. Key thing here is the lighting condition, trolls (v1.0) would be no use if it was sunny and orcs less effective than usual. Probably Dagorlad is close enough to Mordor for Sauron to use the dark-brown-ashy-cloud technique, though a bat-cloud is a possibility, if so then seen off by allied hawks and the like?

On Fan Fiction, you might be interested to read 'Isildur' by Brian Crawford

http://home.comcast.net/~crawford.b/...r/isildur.html

It's a fascinating take on the end of the Second Age but suffers from being written before CT released some of the key material. Though checking now I see an updated version is available as a paid download.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Sauron’s forces also are implied to have evolved. Earlier in the SA his forces refused to face the Numenorean armament and at Dagorlad they did.

I think it's a safe assumption that the Dunedain Elendil and his sons could muster were nowhere near as numerous as the massive invasion force Ar-Pharazon landed at Umbar.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Who was it said that amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics?

General Omar Bradley said that, and it was still being taught at the US Infantry Officers' Basic Course when I attended back in 1992.

I've also heard a version which goes "Amateurs talk tactics, dilettantes talk strategy, and professionals talk logistics."

On that same subject, Hans Guderian also said, "Logistics is the ball and chain of armoured warfare." and Stalin was to have said, "Quantity has a quality all of its own."

Two others, more applicable to Sauron than the Alliance:

-"Russians, in the knowledge of inexhaustible supplies of manpower, are accustomed to accepting gigantic fatalities with comparative calm." (Barbara Tuchman)

-"A single death is a tragedy, a million is just a statistic." (Stalin)

[Rumil]

Hi WCH, agree that the majority of Ar Pharazon's force were lost in Aman, but the Black Numenorean colonists and the Faithful do seem to have been two very powerful detachments, in Middle Earth terms, though not comparable to the main force.

Like the quotes Andsigil, Stalin's could come directly from the Mouth!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, Elendil's flotilla amounted to 9 ships- even if they were gigantic by sail standards, that still amounts to at most a few thousand including women and children (and they had to make room for gigantic round black stones and things!). The intervening century would have permitted a population increase, but (a) Numenoreans multiplied rather slowly, in keeping with their long lives, and (b) there were, one must assume, very significant losses when Minas Ithil was taken.

To these must be added the Faithful colonists at Pelargir, although one doesn't get the impression that this was a very large population. In addition there was a house of the Faithful ruling Belfalas, but that may have meant only the Lord's family and household, with a native population. Likewise the Men of the White Mountain vales and Lebennin wouldn't count as Numenoreans, and probably were still at a much lower state of technology.

[JeffF.]

According to UT Lond Daer at the mouth tof the Greyflood river was also a port and colony of Numenor. Apparently not all the Numenoreans of Umbar became Black Numenoreans. There is about 100 years between the Fall of Numenor and the Last Alliance so there was time for a few generations to grow but most of the Army of Arnor and Gondor must have been made up of indigenous men who submitted to Numenorean rule.

There still needs to be some explanation of how the major cities of Minas Anor, Ossigliath, Minas Ithil, and Annuminas were made in addition to the great works at Aglarond and Orthanc. These hint at, even demand, that we believe there was a significant Numenorean population that could not be accomodated at Pelargir and Lond Daer. Though Tolkien hints at some mysterious method of contructing Orthanc and the outer wall of Minas Anor (AKA Minas Tirith) most of the contruction was 'normal' requiring much labor and manpower.

[JeffF.]

I agree with your opinion that the army of Elendil could not have been as great as the force that Ar Pharazon landed at Umbar but it is the joint force of Arnor's Army and Gil-Galad's host at Imladris that is "none greater in Middle Earth" since the breaking of Thangorodrim. Gid-Galad's Elves must have been the greater part of this great host. "Fairer and more splendid in arms" likely pertains to their armament. Since the downmfall of Numenor Elendil's mixed men could not have been as effective as a force of pure Numenoreans and so many of the Noldor who had made the journey of the Exhiles would have been killed in the great battles of the FA & SA's. Most of the surviving Noldor would have been Dark Elves without the power described to Glorfindel in Fellowship of the Ring so overall the Noldor would be less powerful regardless of how numerous they became or how well armed.

[JeffF.]

Re-reading the appropriate parts of the Simarillion, it says the Peoples of the coasts were related or of Elendil's folk hinting that there were many colonies besides Pelargir and Lond Daer.

There may have been a significant population of the Faithful in Middle Earth around the coasts that later became Gondor and SW Arnor.

[JeffF.]

Rumil,

Thanks for the link. I did enjoy the story. The concept of using The Three to lure Sauron out of Barad-dur is compelling. I was put off though by the large number of instances the author contradicts Tolkein canon. From my first reading (no doubt I'll find more as a re-read it): From UT Isildur's sons Aratan and Cyrion were holding Minas ithil during the siege of Barad-dur (so it must have been retaken since the Silmarillion states it was lost in Sauron's initial attack); Elendur and Meneldil accompanied their fathers and were at Dagorlad, Meneldil had no brother rather three sisters, Lothlorien was not yet ruled by Galadriel and Celeborn rather Amdir who led his army to Dagorlad. Thranduil was not in Greenwood but had accompanied his father Oropher with the army of Greenwood elves and was at Dagorlad, the author says that Sauron did not bother to sortie yet Tolkien states that he made 'many sorties' during the siege, Hobbits had not yet appeared in Middle Earth, Gil-galad was born in Hithlum so he is NOT older than Galadriel, the Nazgul appear to wear their rings when Sauron holds them (yet the author states later in the book that he does hold them - so what were the objects shining on the Nazgul's hands he described earlier?), Sauron was not last seen by Celembrimbor rather he was last seen by Elendil in Numenor before the downfall, the Numenoreans had few cavalry and few horses mostly non-Numenorean horse archers, the end of Isildur is much different from the version in UT though it is consistent with another contradictory statement made in LOTR.

I found the last combat to be anti-climactic. Fingolfin in his great duel with Morgoth wounded him seven times but the two great kings Gil-galad and Elendil are quickly overwhelmed without making a scratch on Sauron, not until he mistakes Gil-galad for being dead.

The author seems to have ignored the fact that elves who saw the Light of the Trees (Galadriel was one of these) have great power in the unseen world (as Gandalf describes Glorfindel in FotR). In the Third Age the Nazgul were dismayed by Glorfindel at the Ford of Rivendell "an Elf-lord revealed in his wrath." Though Gandalf says the Nazgul are but shadows of the power and terror they would have should Sauron regain the ring such elves, however few there may have been by the Last Combat, should have been a power the Nazgul would be challenged to overcome.

What I find MOST objectionable is the manner in which Isildur gains the ring. I've always envisioned it to be much like shown in the movie version with Isildur wielding the shards in desperation and fury after witnessing the death of Elendil and Gil-galad and cutting off the ring in the heat of battle, instead Isildur, one of the noblest of men cuts the ring finger off of Sauron's corpse after he is killed by Gil-galad acting as would a common orc.

My favorite scene was the battle of the Three vs. the Nine.

The web-site says that the book was corrected in the 2nd Edition to align itself with Tolkien canon so I'm hoping that the Word version I read is the 1st Edition.

Is there a thread where these things have been discussed?

[Rumil]

Hi JeffF,

yeah this is the old version which was written before a lot of the newer details (HoME, UT etc) were published. I haven't tried the new version yet!

There were many things that rankled with me too, but I thought you might be interested !

I can't remember any specific threads on this story, but I guess there should be a bunch on the different aspects of Isildur's story.

[JeffF.]

I did like the story but it would have to have major revisions to align with canon.

Thanks for the link I do appreciate it.