For in that sleep of death what dreams may come.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by davem

...we could jump in at any point, experience the world of the story from the place & time of any of the characters - in fact, like Frodo we too could skip from 'The House of Tom Bombadil' to 'The Grey Havens' omitting completely the intervening 900 pages.....

That sounds like a summary of the premise for Jasper Fforde's 'Thursday Next' books, and wouldn't it be fun to jump into LotR or the Hobbit - provided we could keep out of danger's way in doing so?!

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

That sounds like a summary of the premise for Jasper Fforde's 'Thursday Next' books, and wouldn't it be fun to jump into LotR or the Hobbit - provided we could keep out of danger's way in doing so?!

lo! And who would play Thursday's Miss Haversham for us? Galadriel?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by davem

This is certainly a possible explanation. Of course it kind of kills an interesting discussion stone dead.

Oops! Wouldn't be the first time a post of mine dried up a thread. That said, a physical explanation needn't make the discussion 'stone dead' as I was only speaking of Merry - the receiver. What of the transmitter?

Or wone could use the analogy of a book - when we read a book we are in the position of observer one, following events serially, seeing what comes next. But the book we hold in our hands contains the whole story, & we could jump in at any point, experience the world of the story from the place & time of any of the characters - in fact, like Frodo we too could skip from 'The House of Tom Bombadil' to 'The Grey Havens' omitting completely the intervening 900 pages.....

The Wight may be like one of these books, or maybe we're all books, but in this case the Wight is stuck in a certain chapter - cursed there, perhaps? This assumes that we accept that the Wight is there for some good reason in the first place, and hasn't moved on. Regardless, it *is* there, and when it captures one of the living, it sends out a signal that replays a specific battle, which, from the point of view of the Wight, was a memory or replay of a victorious moment. Was this due to the memory being vivid, was the pre-Wight being slain at that time, and so reliving the last few moments that it had recorded (like an airplane's black box), or did it send out this memory instinctively in order to increase the despair/fear in its victims, whereby making them more easily sacrificed?

[davem]

As I said, I'd be more inclined towards your idea if we didn't have the examples of Lost Road & Notion Club Papers. I think Flieger's approach probably is correct - certainly in those 'time travel' stories we have something like a 'higher' consciousness moving across 'time', & experiencing different lives. But this is not about remembering 'past' lives - in some sense all those lives, all those different 'times' are happening concurrently from the observer 2 perspective.

The question is 'who (or what) is this 'observer 2' that can pop up in one conciousness at one moment & another the next? Its not really reincarnation or 'racial'ancestral memory' but a different, & very interesting way of looking at the nature of time & consciousness. If I enter the 'consciousness' of a sixteenth century man, or an ancient Egyptian, & experience an event from their life 'as it happens', then in a sense it is happening concurrently with my life here in the 21st century - my consciousness has simply tuned into another 'place', to an event which is happening in some kind of eternal 'Now'.

Merry's consciousness had simply 'tuned in' to a different 'place' in what we expreience as serial time. We're not talking about an 'echo' or 'recording' of a 'past' event, something over & done with, but an event which is actually happening simultaneously with his own experience in the Barrow. The location & the clothing & 'jools' he is wearing creating a 'link' across 'space-time'. Just as Frodo's consciousness in his dream in the House of Bombadil is 'actually' his consciousness as it 'is' when he looks out from the Last Ship & sees the Undying Lands - because both 'events' are, from a 'higher' perspective, happening simultaneously - Frodo is in Bombadil's house & on board ship (& at the Sammath Naur, & in Lorien, & at Bilbo's Birthday Party & .....) all at the 'same time'.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by davem

As I said, I'd be more inclined towards your idea if we didn't have the examples of Lost Road & Notion Club Papers. I think Flieger's approach probably is correct - certainly in those 'time travel' stories we have something like a 'higher' consciousness moving across 'time', & experiencing different lives. But this is not about remembering 'past' lives - in some sense all those lives, all those different 'times' are happening concurrently from the observer 2 perspective.

The question is 'who (or what) is this 'observer 2' that can pop up in one conciousness at one moment & another the next? Its not really reincarnation or 'racial'ancestral memory' but a different, & very interesting way of looking at the nature of time & consciousness. If I enter the 'consciousness' of a sixteenth century man, or an ancient Egyptian, & experience an event from their life 'as it happens', then in a sense it is happening concurrently with my life here in the 21st century - my consciousness has simply tuned into another 'place', to an event which is happening in some kind of eternal 'Now'.

To me, if we're talking about 'observers,' in the sense that I take the word, then it is *not* happening concurrently. It's like you watching a movie of yourself from last week. You can experience that time time and time again, yet not change the outcome of the event in any way (I always wish this weren't true when viewing old volleyball tournament tapes ). Merry, reliving the battle, was not able to change events in any way, and so he was a mere observer.

Maybe I'm not getting what you are writing about.

Merry's consciousness had simply 'tuned in' to a different 'place' in what we expreience as serial time. We're not talking about an 'echo' or 'recording' of a 'past' event, something over & done with, but an event which is actually happening simultaneously with his own experience in the Barrow. The location & the clothing & 'jools' he is wearing creating a 'link' across 'space-time'. Just as Frodo's consciousness in his dream in the House of Bombadil is 'actually' his consciousness as it 'is' when he looks out from the Last Ship & sees the Undying Lands - because both 'events' are, from a 'higher' perspective, happening simultaneously - Frodo is in Bombadil's house & on board ship (& at the Sammath Naur, & in Lorien, & at Bilbo's Birthday Party & .....) all at the 'same time'.

The only issue I have with eternal nows and experiencing the past, present and future is that seems to make the future pre-determined. If I were that 16th century guy and had a 21st century experience, that would mean that what we do today has already been done and recorded.

In Tolkien's world there may be precedent as Arda is an echo of the original music. The future has already been played, even if all but Eru don't know it. Beings at times may be able to tap into this music, and then experience some of the notes produced by certain individuals.

[davem]

Originally Posted by alatar

The only issue I have with eternal nows and experiencing the past, present and future is that seems to make the future pre-determined. If I were that 16th century guy and had a 21st century experience, that would mean that what we do today has already been done and recorded.
.

Ok - slightly different angle ... surely, from a theistic pov (& admittedly I'm only a 'cultural', as opposed to a 'practicing', Christian, so I may be a bit out on this) God's perspective is kind of equivalent to this 'observer 2' in that He sees the whole of creation at once, past, present & future (as we would label them), & hence from His perspective today has "already been done & recorded". Thus, such an experience (assuming He permitted it, or gifted it) would be possible for an individual. In fact, one could argue that this is evidence for a direct intervention of Eru in Middle-earth as only he could gift this experience - for instance as a way of comforting & inspiring Frodo in his dream.

Certainly it doesn't at all imply that the future is 'pre-determined' - unless you're arguing that observer 1's journey down the river is 'pre-determined' because the river already exists & 'observer 2' can see what is around the next bend before 'observer 1' does. 'Observer 2' knows what 'observer 1' is going to see simply because he has a different perspective. That doesn't invalidate 'observer 1's' experience, or mean that he has no freedom of choice, or turn him into some kind of robot. If God knows what I will do as completely as He knows what I have done (which He must do if he is omniscient) does that mean that I am not free to do what I want, & am therefore not responsible for my actions, & never have been - or does it simply mean that he, being transcendent, can see 'past, present & future' as an eternal 'Now'.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by davem

Ok - slightly different angle ... surely, from a theistic pov (& admittedly I'm only a 'cultural', as opposed to a 'practicing', Christian, so I may be a bit out on this) God's perspective is kind of equivalent to this 'observer 2' in that He sees the whole of creation at once, past, present & future (as we would label them), & hence from His perspective today has "already been done & recorded". Thus, such an experience (assuming He permitted it, or gifted it) would be possible for an individual. In fact, one could argue that this is evidence for a direct intervention of Eru in Middle-earth as only he could gift this experience - for instance as a way of comforting & inspiring Frodo in his dream.

That makes sense, until you get God too into it...and that's probably a whole 'nother discussion, as I always get creeped out when discussing timeless eternal beings dipping His/Her/It/Their toes in the water now and then, as what does that do to the waters of time, what does it do to a timeless being, and then you start wondering about Heisenberg uncertainty as the observer has an effect of what is observed.

Certainly it doesn't at all imply that the future is 'pre-determined' - unless you're arguing that observer 1's journey down the river is 'pre-determined' because the river already exists & 'observer 2' can see what is around the next bend before 'observer 1' does.

I would say that in Arda, major rivers of time are 'predetermined.' Like if you were to pitch something into a local Pittsburgh river, eventually it will end up in the Mississippi (should I have my geography right). It may take a short or long route, may get stuck along the way, may go over or through the lock, but eventually it's going down stream, unless I catch up and remove it.

Minor tributaries may have no more 'predeterminism' than that they run down hill.

'Observer 2' knows what 'observer 1' is going to see simply because he has a different perspective. That doesn't invalidate 'observer 1's' experience, or mean that he has no freedom of choice, or turn him into some kind of robot. If God knows what I will do as completely as He knows what I have done (which He must do if he is omniscient) does that mean that I am not free to do what I want, & am therefore not responsible for my actions, & never have been - or does it simply mean that he, being transcendent, can see 'past, present & future' as an eternal 'Now'.

As above.

And I won't even mention that everything you do is determined by your genes, and those genes by the Theory of Everything (currently in the works).

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

one could argue that this is evidence for a direct intervention of Eru in Middle-earth as only he could gift this experience - for instance as a way of comforting & inspiring Frodo in his dream.

While Frodo's dream might be comforting, there are many other dreams and dreamers in Middle earth. Consider the dream which both Boromir and Faramir had concerning the strange events of a sword that was reforged and a ring. That dream sent Boromir to Rivendell for help interpreting it. From whence did it come? Was it a cultural memory that the two shared?

Perhaps dreams generally deserve their own thread.

[radagastly]

Originally posted by Bethberry:

Perhaps dreams generally deserve their own thread.

I think you're right! It would be an interesting course of study. I hope you start it soon, as I have a few ideas to add.

I am awaiting it . . .

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by radagastly

I think you're right! It would be an interesting course of study. I hope you start it soon, as I have a few ideas to add.

I am awaiting it . . .

Oh, if you're rarin' to go, do start the thread yourself, Rad, as I have little time this week to follow a thread. I would certainly lurk in and post as time allows.

Looking forward to seeing your thread!

[davem]

The other day I posted about a newly discovered letter by Tolkien which is up for auction

http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/l...b-47091f3318ed

I wonder if the bolded part could have any relevance to this question?