Respectless ignorance!

[Noxomanus]

Reading a short article in a national (thus, Dutch) opinion-magazine, I became seriously enraged by the shameless disrespect and ignorance displayed by the author. Read this translation:

Hobbit,f*** off!

'...Curious are futher the 11 Oscars for the makers of 'Lord of the Rings.' Actors from the movie to the book of the world-estranged reactionist Tolkien were not nominated. They did little more then running agonized on the screen, chased by strange creatures for many,many hours. The problem isn't that it's bull****. That's the case with most Hollywood productions. The problem is the extreme ernest with wich everything is brought. You look at silly hobbits,elves and orcs, but are made to believe you're dealing with a serious mythology...But enough mourning,the age of Frodo and other soulless creations of Tolkien is over.Hopefully the filmscreen will offer space to real people now.'

I nearly fell of my chair when I read that! The author obviously doesn't understand the magic of Tolkien, or the greatness of the movies (wich is of course only a subtraction of the magic of the books.) I bet she's only seen the movies (or just one of them) and doesn't know a thing about the truly mythological level of Tolkiens ME at all. Such terrible disrespect and ignorance makes me furious!

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Who is the author? I would make sure that I had his/her/its name on the toilet seat, every time I do my business.

[rutslegolas]

who is this digusting,filthy,ignorant,senseless,stupid author?

(soory cant use any more bad words the moderators will hang me)

but really he cannot have read the lotr ,he must have only seen the movie

actually you should write to him and tell him to read the lotr

[The Saucepan Man]

Hmm, that is quite extreme.

It is consistent, however, with what seems to be happening here in the UK at the moment. In the past week or so, I have noticed a number of articles in newspapers and magazines criticising the films or the books, or more usually both. Not as extreme as the article above, but hostile nevertheless. And it all seems to have been prompted by the film of RotK having won its 11 Oscars.

Now, we all know that LotR is one of those books that people seem to either love or hate. Very few people have "no opinion" on it. The film hasn't changed that, and neither have the Oscars. And, of course, some journalists will be within the anti-Frodo brigade, just as others will be in the pro-Frodo camp. Journalists write for a living and, given a choice over what to write about, those who are particularly anti-Tolkien will no doubt feel sufficiently driven to vent their feeling in print as a reaction against the acclaim that the films (and by proxy the book) have received. And what more acclaim can a film receive than to top the list (albeit jointly) of all-time Oscar winners. For many, it is probably the "straw that broke the camel's back".

On the other hand, those who love the films and the book probably do not feel sufficiently motivated to write in praise of them as they can simply let the acclaim speak for itself.

So let's dwell on the positives. The popularity of the book is surely at an all-time high (thanks in large measure to the films), it was recently voted Britain's most popular book (the latest in a series of popularity polls which it has consistently topped) and it has been made into a series of films which are among the most successful of films (both critically and financially) of all time.

Kind of pulls the rug out from under the anti-Frodo brigade's carpet when you think of it like that, doesn't it.

[Noxomanus]

The author? Well, I'm pretty sure you'll never read anything of her but her name's Gerry van der List (If I'm not mistaken)

I'm glad you people understand how furious I was because of this lousy piece of writing.

[Lalaith]

Hey, we aren't a religious cult (are we?! ).
I like Tolkien, you like Tolkien, but some people don't like Tolkien and they are entitled to their opinions, and indeed to voice those opinions in print - what with living in a free society and all that.

I've got lots of friends who think much along the lines of the above writer. That's fine with me, we just talk about other things. And it doesn't diminish my own enjoyment of the books or the films in the least.

[Finwe]

I have no problem with others having different opinions than myself, but honestly, there is a certain limit that you just do not cross. If this Gerry bint doesn't like Tolkien, that's no reason to write such a scathing, inflammatory article about it. I think that sometimes opinions are best kept to oneself.

BTW, just who are these "real" people in Hollywood movies? Are they the bottled blonde, size-four, "wordly" heroines? The ones with the completely hypocritical, superficial values? If those are real people, then I'm damn proud of admiring the Elves!!!!

[Amariden Ravenhill]

Originally posted by Finwe

BTW, just who are these "real" people in Hollywood movies? Are they the bottled blonde, size-four, "wordly" heroines? The ones with the completely hypocritical, superficial values? If those are real people, then I'm damn proud of admiring the Elves!!!!

YEAH! LONG LIVE THE ELDAR RACE OF ILUVATAR!!!! Pffft....those types of "worldly heroines" really irk me......Whatever happened to the rest of us who don't fit into that category (same thing for guys.....they're all suppossed to be "tall and muscular", according to Hollywood.....pfft....gimme an Elf or a Hobbit and I'm happy.)

[bilbo_baggins]

I agree with Lalaith, everyone deserves an opinion. But if Tolkien were alive he would be backed up a 100 percent if he sued them for libel (in the U.S., anyway. I don't know what sort of laws are in the great "North lands."

[Aethelwine]

I agree with all who say that people are allowed to have their own opinion, but this taking it a bit far!

Noxomanus, what magazine is this, and what edition? I like to read it for my self...

Bye!

Aethelwine

[Kransha]

I need a picture of that author so I can imprint his face on my toilet paper.

That's simply outrageous. Not only has this guy never read the books, I doubt he has seen the movie either. Calling Tokein's in depth characters, each brimming with personality, 'soulless', is just plain blasphemous. This person has most likely never found the time to actually read the volumes since he thinks they are such a waste. I bet he thinks the same thing about Shakespeare and Chaucer. Disgusting, sinful, pointless drivel from an idiot.

*takes deep breath, smashed Grond into the ground*

Ok, that was over-exagferated negativity towards him, but honestly, does it even look like he has any sense of culture after reading that? I'll answer my own question: No.

[The Saucepan Man]

I like Tolkien, you like Tolkien, but some people don't like Tolkien and they are entitled to their opinions, and indeed to voice those opinions in print - what with living in a free society and all that.

Absolutely right, Lalaith. I am the first to the barricades when it comes to defending free speech.

I was more interested in considering why the Oscar win seems to have brought forth a plethora of anti-LotR sentiment. I deem that it is because people who have a particular dislike for something feel a need to make a stand when it acheives such acclaim.

But I see little point in railing againt this journalist. We all (here) feel outraged when we read things like this because we vehemently disagree with the sentiments expressed. Particularly so when they are expressed so crudley. But, really, what does it matter? People have their opinions (and this particular opinon stops short of the libellous, however badly expressed and offensive it may be). And they are entitled to them. We can't change them, so there is little point expending the effort trying to do so.

As you say, some people (like us) enjoy Tolkien's works. Others (like this journalist) dislike them. That will never change. By my final point in my last post, I meant to say that there seem to be an awful lot more people that share our opinion (albeit, in most cases, a little less passionately) than that of this journalist.

[Noxomanus]

I do not have a problem with a person not liking LotR (we can't make them happy against their will... ) but what I dislike so greatly can be found in the name of this thread...It's respectless ignorance. I do have a problem with that.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

"I am a heralf and ambassador, and may not be assailed!" he (Mouth of Sauron) cried.

"Where such laws hold," said Gandalf, "it is also the custom for ambassadors to use less insolence. But no one has threatened you. You have nought to fear from us, until your errand is done."

And also this:

"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement."

I wonder when Ms Gerry van der List's "errand" is done so that I can deal with her...

[rutslegolas]

ya hot crispy hobbit is right

people can express their opinion but there has to be a certain limit.

i bet that author hasnt read lotr and has just given her opinion on the basis of the film.

[Kransha]

That's my opinion as well.

Of course, I couldn't help but explode in a fiery ball of madness because it looks to me that the author hasn't even read the book. How could he/she possibly think Tolkein's characters are 'soulless?' I don't care if people dislike Tolkein after reading his works, or even dismiss Tolkein and never attempt to read his works, but it seems to me that this author has barely even skimmed anything with the name Tolkein on it and yet claims that she knows some horrible truth about it which the rest of the world apparently doesn't.

Freedom of speech is fine, but that authpr just abuses that right. I suppose it's his/her opinion that I shouldn't care, but it still makes me get all....balrogey....and stuff.

[Everdawn]

I totally respect the journo's opinion. For one, it's probably just another 'armchiar expert' and I love these, I am one. Now understanding their mindset, I have friends who havnt read LOTR and really dont like the movies. It's a new perspective on, do we unknowingly think that the movies are good becuse we have read the books and know the books? Porbably not, the movies were good, but that is one of the things you have to allow for opinions.

What i really hate is when a journo will write an artice with wrong facts, like in the Courier Mail, (Brisbane Aust.) last year a journo called Des Partridge made 14 mistakes in his feature. Now surely one would think you would check this stuff before sending it off to the printing press eh? Well i go thim back at the Australian Premiere of Peter Pan, where i found him and pointed out to him the mistakes... he was an old codger so he didnt abuse me for doing so, but he was embarassed all the same.

My aunt ont he other hand is an entertainment journo and sent me her feature for fact checking before it went to press, now there is a smart journo. I mean this Des Partridge guy could have found someone who would have known about LOTR, even the guy in the mail room.

I guess we will just never suss out these ill learned journos.

[Firefoot]

I understand that everyone has an opinion, and not everyone's opinion on LotR will be the same, but this is taking it too far. She is entitled to her opinion, and I could care less if the article had been written in a, well, nicer way.

So she hasn't read the books. I would bet that many of the journalists that write articles in praise of LotR haven't read them either.

Her article is wrong about many things. I know that. You know that. Many other people in the world know that. It is one person's opinion and most people already have some kind of opinion on it and if they didn't they probably won't.

[Lalaith]

But that's the point. Why should you 'respect' Tolkien if you don't like his work? He isn't a God, or the head of a religion, he's an author. Saying you don't like his works, even if you express yourself very forcefully as this journo has done, is fair comment, not blasphemy or libel, as some of you seem to be implying.

As Saucepan Man points out, there are a fair few articles like this around at the moment, and I think the reasons are as follows:
Firstly, Tolkien and LotR are *everywhere* right now. If you really don't like Tolkien, that would be pretty annoying.
Secondly - journalism prefers 'man bites dog', to 'dog bites man.'
So articles going, "hey, everyone seems to like Tolkien at the moment and guess what, so do I," would not be considered particularly interesting. Hence the plethora of 'oh God I can't stand this Tolkien mania' articles in the papers.

[Laitoste]

I don't think the problem is being disrespectful to Tolkien, it's being disrespectful to anyone who reads this. The author clearly put no thought into what she was writing. It's really rather offensive.

Everyone has their own opinion, yes, but the thing with free speach is being polite to the opinions of others. I couldn't care less if she liked The Lord of the Rings or not. But I like The Lord of the Rings, and I would prefer that my opinions are not so rudely insulted.

On the disrespectful to Tolkien note: Even if she doesn't like Tolkien, she should still respect his work as something others enjoy, and something that he spent a lot of time on, just as we should respect her opinion.

[the phantom]

I know a lot of people who remind me of the person who wrote the article. I think the main reason this person hates LOTR lies in this statement-

Hopefully the filmscreen will offer space to real people now

There are many people that just can't stand things that aren't "real". These people are unable to read or watch anything that's slightly sci-fi or fantasy. My ex-girlfriend was like that. When I would talk about Middle-Earth or Star Wars she would say things like "But, it's not real." How we ever ended up dating I'll never know.

But the author of the article is allowed to think what she wants, just as I am allowed to think that she and everyone like her has a severely limited imagination and poor taste and is therefore an inferior, insignificant person hardly worth the time I took to write this post.

[rutslegolas]

thats right phantom

this author should be written and told to read the books and then express her opinion.
i know that it is a free country and everbody has a right to express their opinion and all that blah.blah.blah.

but their opinion should have some sense.
she says " i hope the screen offers role to real people".so dos she think that the works of JRR TOLKEIN are inferior than other writers?

[bilbo_baggins]

Originally posted by Noxomanus
They did little more then running agonized on the screen, chased by strange creatures for many,many hours

I think that this piece of the article clearly shows the author does not really know what the story line is; or at least has only watched portions of the movies. It is truly unfair of them to write such blatant insult without proper grounding. If a journalist really read the story, and then said they did not like it, however they said it, it would be less painful to swallow. But the author clearly did not read the story, much less know what the real plot goes like.

I do not notice any part where the Fellowship or Frodo is chased by strange creatures for hours, did you?

[Noxomanus]

I think she means that for many many hours of movie actors could be seen that were chased by evil creatures. (Orcs,trolls,Nazgul & Balrog,I can only suppose)

That is to mean, the movie where this happened lasted for hours,not the chasing by evil creatures.

Anyway,she didn't understand the whole thing at all.

[Iris Alantiel]

If not for the confrontational tone of the article, I would actually feel really sorry for this journalist. I feel sorry for anyone who just dismisses Tolkien without giving him a chance, because they'll never know what they're missing. As you've all pointed out again and again, this person has clearly not delved into the books at all and didn't even really pay a lot of attention when he/she was watching the movies. So sad. But it's the journalist's choice to make, not mine, so to each their own.

However, what bothers me about this article isn't that it bashes Tolkien - everybody's entitled to their own opinion, and I'm aware that some people just don't understand him the way we hardcore fans do. It's the way the journalist puts so much hostility into his assertion that the movie AND the books are "soulless creations". It's fine for journalists to argue whatever they want in an opinion piece, but it seems to me that this kind of vitriolic attack isn't going to convince anybody. A better strategy would be to bring out arguments and evidence to support the article's point. When reading an article that contains this much fire and anger, I usually reach the conclusion that there's not much evidence to back up the writer's claims.

[rutslegolas]

ya i agree with Iris ,i really get angry when these dumb writers write anything which they dont know about.

[Lord of Angmar]

I hope nobody takes this article as a serious piece of journalism, because it seems to me it is the equivalent of America's MAD Magazine attacking the movie. I have no problem with people printing such material, since anyone who is swayed by the kind of ad hominem arguments ("world-estranged reactionist"?) and skin-deep attacks put forth in the article isn't worthy of Tolkien.

[Phervasaion]

I agree with the fact that everyone has the right to express there own opinion and to be honest, I'd rather trust my own opinion rather than believe someone elses and thats why I never seemed to take any notice of these sort of things. But, i am slightly insulted by these remarks and it does seem like the auther has never read the books, as she says the chraractors just run around with things chasing them, but you and I both know that is not true. We love the books and that is all that matters, anyone elses opinion doesnt make a difference.

Which dutch opinion magazine was this? Only a few (dutch)opinion magazines I am familiar with express my opinion, thus I don't read them. As far as I know, opinion magazines are there to express opnions, although there are so many Lord of the Rings fans that such an opinion could of course cause rage. MY opinion of that matter is then, of course, to let everyone have his or her own opinion. Criticism is natural, and good too. But if you like Lord of the Rings this much, counter-arguements to their statements should do the trick. Rage and fury without reasoning shouldn't be the solution

Wee, my first post in a discussion!

[Noxomanus]

The magazine is 'Elsevier'

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Hiya, Yiriandur! Welcome to the religious cult dedicated to resurrecting the combined works of Prof T! Down here in the Barrowdowns, we just lie around piles of gold and sacrifice LOTR heretics to the Dark Lord Sauron...

But no, that is not just what we do! We have got a life/unlife here, and have healthy discussions about Balrog fins and the Secret Eagle Service.

So enjoy your soon-to-be addiction...

Thank you for this warm welcome. =)

I am pretty embarrassed... Not only do I visit the chat regularly (every day), but I also visit the website often, and that for about two years already... I honestly thought I had registered myself. But yesterday I found out that I didn't... So, well, yeah... Here I am... and I'm actually planning on being a bit active, to catch up a bit on *CERTAIN* members *coughsgayahithwencoughs*. But yeah... First I need to read about a bit to see what the whole forum contains =) Starting here, of course.

[The Elusive Spirit]

Closed minded git!

Well, now that that's out of my system I'll begin. LOTR is getting all kinds of publicity from the Oscars. It went in as the underdog with everyone cheering, but it simply won too much for some (not me). Everyone is tired of hearing about how great LOTR is and
to actually sell the magazine the author has to write something people will read. People love to read nasty articles and they sell so that's what is written.
It's unfortunate that some people dismiss a film that, in my opinion, will probably become a classic, but the man has a right to express him self. And so do we for that matter, I say GO TO MORDOR!

[InklingElf]

I don't have a real opinion about what they do at the oscars -- but I didn't even know most of the awards they mentioned existed (like technical editing etc.)! I suppose I'm not watching enough t.v.. hah.

Critisizing this movie and Peter Jackson was overrated from the beginning. The guy loves the books, so he made movies -- therefore, let him be! Besides, he seemed quite humble enough for someone who has so many oscars. Not that I'm a big fan.

Publicity is another fascinating thing.

[Lush]

OMIGOD SOME PEOPLE SOMEWHERE HAPPEN TO THINK TOLKIEN IS LAME!!!!!! OMIGOD THEY DARE TO EXPRESS THEMSELVES!!!!!! AND NOT POLITELY EITHER!!!!! OMIGOD I CAN'T HANDLE IT I THINK MY HEAD IS ABOUT TO EXPLODE WHERE IS MY SHOTGUN LET'S HUNT THIS EVIL CREATURE DOWN!!!!!!!

*ahem*

I think worrying about people who don't like Tolkien nor Peter Jackson is a waste. You can't dictate what they think and how they express it. Frankly, I've heard worse insults hurled at the books and movies, by people far more clever and important. I used to get all insulted and defensive and pouty, now I just stick my togue out at them and move on.

Oh, and by the way,

BTW, just who are these "real" people in Hollywood movies? Are they the bottled blonde, size-four, "wordly" heroines? The ones with the completely hypocritical, superficial values? If those are real people, then I'm damn proud of admiring the Elves!!!!

Waifish blondes have feelings too. *pout pout*

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I'm not entirely sure which of my points I should begin with, since they don't exactly fit together. I'll go with this one first though:

Ever since I was quite little, my parents told me that I could have whatever opinion I want, as long as

1) I can back it up with proof and details and (fun to collect arguements, actually)
2) I learn when it's appropriate to share my opinions (still working on this part, but for the most part I'm pretty good at timing)

This author obviously has the right to her own opinion, that's not what's in question. But the way she goes about expressing it without fair points or explanations is respectless. My next point is the issue of respect.

Why should you 'respect' Tolkien if you don't like his work? He isn't a God, or the head of a religion, he's an author.

I won't say you SHOULD respect somebody because of what they actively do, more that you should respect them for what they do quite unknowingly. And I'm not insisting that anybody respect someone that they truly have good reason not to. Let me explain: I truly don't like John Steinbeck's work. You would have to staple my eyes open, duct tape me to a chair, and find various ways of ensuring my focus to get me to reread The Red Pony, East of Eden, and Of Mice and Men, and the whole while I would be singing "Lalalanotlisteningcan'tseelalala" to myself in hopes of blocking it all out. But I still respect Steinbeck. I don't like him personally (how could I, having never met him and not liking his writing?), but I respect him not from his actual work, but from the way others view it. My old English teacher is a Die-Hard Steinbeckian, and to quote Faramir:

The praise of the praiseworthy is above all rewards.

If John Steinbeck earned the respect of this man, and this man has long since earned my respect, than Steinbeck, by default, also has my respect. So my opinion on Steinbeck's writing: I won't deny that he's a talented writer to have aquired so many noteworthy fans, but I couldn't care less about his work.

I think what my point is, is that the author can hold whatever opinion she likes, but she expressed it pretty harshly, and that Tolkien should be respected for the simple (or not so simple) effect that he and his work has had on so very many people.

Fea

[Failivrin]

Sorry, don't have time to read all that thread, but i agree with The Saucepan Man's first few posts.

I am all for everyone having their own opinions but i don't agree with people chaging their views on things because of awards ceremonies. The same happened with Johnny Depp; everyone loved his performance until he got nominated for everything and then people started to insult him, his performance, the film, everything. With LOTR it is a love/hate thing, but so many people DO seems to have changed their views after the 11 Oscars that it's slightly ridiculous.

I also feel that that article was rather extreme for the national press: maybe Gerry van der List should tone it down a bit next time.