About dwarf women

[Thinlómien]

It is said in the appendixes of LotR about dwarf women:

They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart.

I understand the garb and even the voice, but appearance? Beard is an important part of the appearance of dwarf-men. So should we conclude that dwarf women have beards? (To me the idea sounds very stupid and un- Tolkien-like. I didn't like "Aragorn's" joke in the movie about dwarf women, I think it wasn't kind to the dwarves...) Or, if they haven't got beards, do they use false beards? (Sounds maybe even more stupid...) Or do they somehow hide their chin by scarfs and helmets? (A dwarf man using scarf around his face...?) Let's see what you think or know; I have no good answers...

[Neithan]

I have always assumed that they did have beards. In fact I thought that Tolkien explicitly stated this somewhere but maybe not.

[The Saucepan Man]

It is a little know fact that, unbeknownst to Bilbo, four of Thorin's company were in fact female.

[Mithalwen]

I must admit it surprised me ..... just tttooooooooooooooo wierd... but it is true and is in either UT or HoME .....I will check the ref... my guess would be "The Peoples of Middle Earth". I hate to think what Aule was thinking of..... I mean beards are horrible even on men...

[Formendacil]

Perhaps the likeness in appearance between dwarf men and women is due to the fact that other races (Elves, Men, Hobbits, etc..) were generally unaware that Dwarves REALLY liked their beards, and ALWAYS had them....

I mean, perhaps they occasionally saw a Dwarf without a beard, but simply thought it was a more civilised clean-shaven one? After all, the Dwarves were pretty secretive, so it's unlikely that they would have given away the secret...

That's the only thought I've got. Other than that, the only thought that comes to mind is that Dwarf women actually DID have beards, scary as the thought is...

[Neithan]

Other than that, the only thought that comes to mind is that Dwarf women actually DID have beards, scary as the thought is...

It's scary for us, but we are not Dwarves.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Neithan

It's scary for us, but we are not Dwarves.

For which I am eternally thankful...

However, my main point is that these are the only two ideas that I can come up with that would explain Tolkien's statement. Any ideas from someone else are fine with me. I'm certainly not tied to either theory...

[Legolas]

but it is true and is in either UT or HoME .....I will check the ref... my guess would be "The Peoples of Middle Earth".

As stated in the original post of this thread, the reference is in the appendices of The Lord of the Rings.

Appendix A, 'Annals of the Kings and Rulers;' III - Durin's Folk.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

It is a little know fact that, unbeknownst to Bilbo, four of Thorin's company were in fact female.

Saucey, what could you be insinuating? Would Bilbo have behaved differently had he known? Would their presence, if known, have caused confusion and loss of focus? Is this an alternate RPG?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Would Bilbo have behaved differently had he known?

Who can tell? Gandalf and the other Dwarves treated them no differently, so possibly not. The fact is that, being a little hard of hearing, Bilbo simply misheard their names when Felicity, Kayleigh, Dora and Nora introduced themselves to him. The rest, as they say, is fantasy ...

[Petty Dwarf]

Yes, dwarf women had beards. They also, like dwarf-men, had enormous breasts.

[Findegil]

Yes, Tolkien did state it clear and without doubt: female Dwarves had beards!
[“The History of Middle-Earth“; volume 11: “The War of the Jewels“; part II: “The Later Quenta Silmarillion”; chapter 13: “Concerning the Dwarves”]:

The Naugrim were ever, as they still remain, short and squat in stature; they were deep-breasted, strong in the arm, and stout in the leg, and their beards were long. Indeed this strangeness they have that no Man nor Elf has ever seen a beardless Dwarf - unless he were shaven in mockery, and would then be more like to die of shame than of many other hurts that to us would seem more deadly. For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike; nor indeed can their womenkind be discerned by those of other race, be it in feature or in gait or in voice, nor in any wise save this: that they go not to war, and seldom save at direst need issue from their deep bowers and halls. It is said, also, that their womenkind are few, and that save their kings and chieftains few Dwarves ever wed; wherefore their race multiplied slowly, and now is dwindling.

And from what else we learn from that chapter, it is not so sure that Aule thought at all about female dwarves! And if he did not, than it was Ilúvatars fancy not to change even a hair at the making of the woman that he managed.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Thinlómien]

Okay then... Sounds disgusting but I can imagine that...

[tar-ancalime]

For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives

Now this is the part that sounds strange to me--can you imagine trying to feed a bearded baby?

[Formendacil]

Hmm... forgot about that passage. You'd think it would stick in one's mind, especially after reading it as many times as I'm sure I have...

Okay, female dwarves have beards. I can handle that.

Still, I'm REALLY glad I'm not a dwarf....

[Michael Wilhelmson]

Sorry to bring it up, but I saw the ROTK extended movie, and there was a hilarious drinking game scene in Edoras. If you've can it, see it, for makes an amazing comment about this topic.

"IT IS THE DWARVES THAT GO SWIMMING- WITH LITTLE HAIRY WOMEN!!!"""""

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Legolas

As stated in the original post of this thread, the reference is in the appendices of The Lord of the Rings.

Appendix A, 'Annals of the Kings and Rulers;' III - Durin's Folk.

Yes, but it doesn't specifically mention beards in the appendix (although I admit they are implied) I think the beardedness of dwarf women is stated explicitly in HoME although I have not yet had a chance to look.

It does raise some other fairly boggling questions which probably should be left well alone...

Edit .. for some reason when I posted this the screen hadn't brought up the last posts which raised some of those disturbing questions!

[Thinlómien]

I've just been more about this...
If four of Thorin's companions were women and it's not mentioned in the story itself, how many of the dwarves we've coma along could be women? Just thinking about all dwarves in Tolkien's books... Well, seriously, probably no one, because there aren't very much female main characters in Tolkien's books and those dwarves mentioned are usually kings or great warriors and not many of Tolkien's women are "warheros" (except Éowyn and so on...).

So the question I thought about: The Seven Fathers of the Dwarves. Some of them were women? Dwarves are, in my opinion, very patriarchaic (?) people. So some of their most highly regarded ancestors being women doesn't sound very smart. But some of them, at least one, had to be women/woman, because otherwise the dwarves would have died to extinction, because men can't reproduce without women. Any ideas about this?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

So the question I thought about: The Seven Fathers of the Dwarves. Some of them were women? Dwarves are, in my opinion, very patriarchaic (?) people. So some of their most highly regarded ancestors being women doesn't sound very smart. But some of them, at least one, had to be women/woman, because otherwise the dwarves would have died to extinction, because men can't reproduce without women. Any ideas about this?

If I recall correctly, Tolkien's final opinion on the subject was that in addition to the Seven Fathers, there were also Six Mothers, who were laid together with one of the Seven Fathers, except for the Eldest, Durin. Durin later ended up wedding one of the progeny of the other Six Fathers.

[Thinlómien]

That sounds correct to me, though I haven't ever heard about it.

[Dragon Reborn]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

It is a little know fact that, unbeknownst to Bilbo, four of Thorin's company were in fact female.

Why did Tolkien not then address them as "shes"?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Dragon Reborn

Why did Tolkien not then address them as "shes"?

Well that's an easy one. The tale told in The Hobbit was written from Bilbo's perspective. And he never realised that the "hes" were in fact "shes".

Originally Posted by Formendacil

If I recall correctly, Tolkien's final opinion on the subject was that in addition to the Seven Fathers, there were also Six Mothers, who were laid together with one of the Seven Fathers, except for the Eldest, Durin. Durin later ended up wedding one of the progeny of the other Six Fathers.

i find this kind of odd since it is written that durin woke upp long before all the other dwarves

[Bêthberry]

Hmmm. What might have inspired or prompted Tolkien to imagine or create bearded dwarven women?

Was he conceiving of some kind of sexual boundary shifting? Both the Ents and the Dwarves apparently as races 'die out' and both have female members who are somehow beyond the pale of female norms. The entwives are said to prefer too much control or power over the natural world. Dwarven women with their beards are indistinguishable from dwarven males and few in number.

And if this is the case, does the disappearance of the race suggest a comment on this boundary shifting?

Or is Tolkien merely drawing upon old legends to populate his race? Why did Terry Pratchett give his female dwarves beards--a nod to Tolkien? This appears to be a feature of fantasy.

What's with the cultural meaning of hair in Middle-earth?

See also Bearded Women in Wikipedia

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

What's with the cultural meaning of hair in Middle-earth?

We did get into that (partly) here

[A_Brandybuck]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Hmmm. What might have inspired or prompted Tolkien to imagine or create bearded dwarven women?

Maybe he wanted to express the strange creation of the Dwarves by Aule. The Dwarves didn't come normally into being like Elves and Men, who were created by Ilúvatar. The Dwarves were made in a revolutionary way against the 'law' of Ilúvatar. Although Ilúvatar adopted them. But he didn't create them. Aule created them, because he couldn't wait for the Coming of the Children of Ilúvatar. But he created them straight from his memory of the vision, which was not very clear.
Maybe Aule couldn't remember this little detail, that male and female differ in the face. Consequently he gave both a beard.

In every case I have the meaning, that Tolkien wanted to express that Dwarves are different from the other Children of Ilúvatar. And this theory fits well with the reasons of Aule creating the Dwarves (and his lacking memory of the vision.)

[davem]

Originally Posted by A_Brandybuck

Maybe Aule couldn't remember this little detail, that male and female differ in the face. Consequently he gave both a beard.

In every case I have the meaning, that Tolkien wanted to express that Dwarves are different from the other Children of Ilúvatar. And this theory fits well with the reasons of Aule creating the Dwarves (and his lacking memory of the vision.)

But hadn't the Valar already taken male & female forms by then? I wonder if the 'female' Valar were as ignorant as Aule. Yavanna with a beard & mustache?

EDIT: Just found this. Relevant part (possibly) is the story of the chain made by the Dwarves to restrain the Wolf Fenris:

The Gods kept and fed the wolf at home. Tyr was the only one who was brave enough to feed him. But when the Gods saw how fast the wolf grew, and as for all prophesies foretold that he would harm them, the Gods decided to make a strong fetter for Fenrir called "Læðing". They took the fetter to Fenrir and asked him to try to break it, Fenrir did that without any trouble. The Gods then made the fetter called "Drómi" and asked the wolf to break that one. Fenrir thought to himself as he hadn´t had any trouble braking the "læðing" why should he not be able to break this one as well. Fenrir told the Gods to put the fetter around his neck, he then broke the fetter easily. The Gods then became scared that there would be no way to contain the wolf. Odin then sent a messenger of Frey called Skirnir down into the world of the Swart Alfs, below the earth, to meet some Dwarves. The Dwarves make the fetter called "Gleipnir". Gleipnir was made of six things: the boom of the cat, the beard of the woman, the roots of the mountains, the sinews of the bears, the breath of the fish and the spit of the birds. You might think there are no such things but this story shows why women don't grow beards, why the cat makes no sound and why the mountains have no roots.

We must assume that it was in a later age that the Dwarves made Gleipnir & that from thenceforward Dwarf women were beardless.

At least, this seems to be where Tolkien got the idea for Dwarf Women having beards. 'Unless, of course, you know different....'

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

We did get into that (partly) here

Yes, an interesting discussion, but it did not include dwarves now, did it? And it was referenced only to one particular aspect of female hair, which is culturally priviledged and even sanctioned.

And I'm not sure it would include hairy hobbit feet.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Yes, an interesting discussion, but it did not include dwarves now, did it? And it was referenced only to one particular aspect of female hair, which is culturally priviledged and even sanctioned.

And I'm not sure it would include hairy hobbit feet.

Picky