*SPOILERS* All questions you could basically ask about ROTK answered - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Gorwingel · 11-28-2003, 02:58 AM

OK, they just posted this on TheOneRing.netThis is a report from a person who got to see an early screening of ROTK, and he is answering questions. This will basically tell you almost anything you wanted to know about the film. About the only thing I can tell you from this report without spoiling anything is that he thought it was good and very, extremely emotional.I will just warn you he basically tells the entire (but brief) storyline of the film. I personally learned some details that I really didn't want to know (I will now try to clear my mind of some of the things I learned during the next 3 weeks).He basically tells what the beginning, middle, ending, and of course what the whole Saruman/Grima/Palantir thing is going to consist of. But even with the MAJOR SPOILERS, I do feel better about the film, now that I know what I know.So I will just give one more warning DO NOT CLICK ON THIS LINK IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE SPOILED IN ANY WAY!!!!!THERE IS A POSSIBILITY THAT MANY OF THESE DETAILS COULD RUIN THE FILM FOR YOU!!!CLICK AT YOUR OWN RISK!!!!OK, here it is... <A HREF="http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/8/1070004377" TARGET=_blank>ROTK O&A</A>

Mariska Greenleaf · 11-28-2003, 06:11 AM

I couldn't resist...But apparently it is already removed...

Elladan and Elrohir · 11-28-2003, 04:10 PM

OK, Gorwingel, fess up. What did the guy say?Obviously it's the real deal if Peter Jackson told them to remove it from the Net.

Luthien_ Tinuviel · 11-28-2003, 04:19 PM

I wanted to know!!! But the thing is, it just might not be the real thing. I'm thinking there's the slight possibility that whoever it is made it up based on educated guesses, and PJ didn't want anyone to go into the theater thinking that that's what would happen. Then again, that is a very slight possibilty.....

Silmiel of Imladris · 11-29-2003, 04:30 PM

That is why it is best to make a copy of these things before they are removed. The first verson of the preview comes to mind.

balrogman · 11-29-2003, 07:40 PM

hmmm i found somethin about a rotk screening, but its not very detailed...here it is SPOILERS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ROTK Screening Report! Xoanon @ 6:31 pm EST URUK HI THERE writes: I live in LA and work in the movie business, so I was able to go to the first Academy Awards screening of ROTK yesterday. Thanksgiving day, and they still filled a big theater - I think that says something about the enthusiasm of LOTR's many fans in the film industry! What struck me most was how much ROTK really is the third act of one huge epic. All climax and payoff. I couldn't even begin to count the number of thrilling action sequences. And yet, even more than with the other movies, the emotional focus is tight on the characters. The LOTR movies actually have less in common with fantasy like STAR WARS, and more in common with classic epics like LAWRENCE OF ARABIA and SPARTACUS. So in a fairly traditional sense, ROTK is an old fashioned War Movie. We get the incredible battles, but also the fear in anonymous soldiers' eyes, and our heroes desperately overcoming that fear to do what has to be done - which is of course what MAKES them heroes. Happily, ROTK doesn't glorify war, but rather the impulse for sacrifice, putting yourself on the line for a greater good.But what all LOTR fans will be saying as they leave the theater is "I cried!" Don't bring a date if you don't want them to see you cry. Do bring Kleenex, whatever. If you love these characters, you're going to cry. Like nine times. Sad crying. Happy crying. Happy-sad crying. You get the picture.Legolas does a stunt you will never forget, battling an Oliphaunt (Mumak, whatever). Sam is the bravest character in any movie, ever. Just the sequence of Pippin singing for Denethor while Faramir rides off on a suicide mission should net Peter Jackson a Best Director nomination. Eowyn ROCKS as action heroine. And you really DON'T want to know what comes through that gate when Minas Tirith is breached.That being said, I bet this will be the LOTR pic that improves most on DVD. Obviously the Saruman sequence will be missed by fans. But some of the other character stories definitely seem truncated too.Aragorn has great stuff to do, but we miss a couple of beats in his transformation. No Houses of Healing - in the book, a nice moment where he "proves" his Kingship in a non-warlike way, and where we see how much the people WANT a King. Same with Denethor - we never really get the sense that he is a good and noble man who has fallen low. He seems spiteful, rather than tragic. His sons are so noble, I found that incongruous. And Arwen is barely present, seeming more like she did in the book - a gift-wrapped prize for the King. Finally, though we spend lots of time with Frodo and Sam, even their trip through Mordor is somewhat ellipsed at the end. Jackson et al seemed mainly concerned with making it clear how the Minas Tirith battles are connected with Frodo's story. This was probably a wise choice, especially for the larger audience who may never have read the books.But the bottom line is, this is a massive epic which even three LONG movies can barely contain, and Peter Jackson & Company did a great job of bringing it to an incredibly exciting climax and a VERY fulfilling ending. The last few scenes of the movie are particularly well crafted. There's a very subtle, understated scene after the Hobbits return to the Shire, with almost no dialogue. Everything is told by the looks on their faces. These are good actors! And then there's the Grey Havens. (See KLEENEX, above) cool eh?

Morquesse · 11-29-2003, 11:37 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> OK, Gorwingel, fess up. What did the guy say? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, please tell us Gorwingel, before your memory gets rusty. Thank you for the screening review balrogman, but I'm wondering about its authenticity. It seems strange that Arwen barely appears, or that there isn't ANY Houses of Healing parts. I would think we would have at least a tiny bit to see that Eowyn, Faramir and Merry are merely mortal (something the cartoon missed), but we shall have to see. See you later! ~M

Gorwingel · 11-30-2003, 01:03 AM

I knew that they were going to take this away. But here is where the report came from... <A HREF="http://www.tolkienonline.com/thewhitecouncil/messageview.cfm?start=0&catid=13&threadid=74209" TARGET=_blank>Tolkien Online</A> I guess it came from a notorious LOTR reviewer. The report on TheOneRing.net had been taken from the information in this topic on this forum. I don't know how valid it is, because I just quickly read the report on TheOneRing before it was deleated, but to me it did sound accurate. I was just so shocked at the time though that he was giving so much away.I am sorry, but I really don't feel comfortable about talking about spoilers right here, but now luckily you can take a look for yourself.[ 2:10 AM November 30, 2003: Message edited by: Gorwingel ]

Cinderella · 11-30-2003, 10:33 AM

Thanks Gorwingel!I found out a lot from that thread.... some stuff I wish I didn't see though. I must admit i'm a little heartbroken over the absence of Eowyn/Faramir romance and any appearance of Saruman at all... but as far as I can tell those will be the only things the film will lack and E/F romance will be in the EE so I can't complain!

Silmiel of Imladris · 11-30-2003, 12:29 PM

That is way to much info to sift through so I think I will wait. I got my tickets yesterday, Dec 19th at 4:15pm, Whoo Hooo!

Lalaith · 12-01-2003, 04:27 AM

Thank you for that link. I'm glad I'm prepared for some of those cuts, it would have been far worse to wait til the viewing to find out. The Theoden problem continues to trouble me (no Merry pledging allegiance) and it seems clear from reading that thread that as they turned Theoden into Denethor-lite in TT, this resulted in having to mess about with Denethor in RotK. I'm very disappointed by the absence of Faramir/Eowyn. And given how good Eomer is in the film, it's damn shame his story is not being given more airtime. But what I know I am going to hate is the Arwen storyline which sounds like a complete shambles. I think PJ would have been better to have ignored all the anti-Arwen geeks, the sword-wielding Arwen of FotR was infinitely preferable to this drippy nonsense.

**The Saucepan Man** · 12-01-2003, 09:50 PM

My my, that link is utterly spoilerific in its total spoilericity, isn't it? When I first clicked on it, I only read the first page and didn't understand what all the fuss was about. Then I saw that there were another 40 or so pages ... So, I now feel that I know more or less the entire plot of RotK (the film, that is). But, like Lalaith, I'm glad that I read it, since I feel that I would have been quite disturbed by some of the changes had I come across them for the first time in the cinema. Now, I've got time to come to terms with them and will hopefully enjoy the film all the more. It certainly sounds like it's going to be spectacular.*WARNING* BIG spoilers follow. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Changes that I have no problem with:<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>The dramatisation of Shelob's lair: Different from the book, but it sounds like it will work well on screen. I actually like the idea of Gollum turning Frodo against Sam and then Sam turning up to rescue him.<LI>No Mouth of Sauron: This came as a surprise, as I had assumed that he would be in it (although not being on the final cast list did provide a hint, I suppose). On reflection, though, I can see that he isn't necessary for the theatrical release and it would seem strange to those who haven't read the books to introduce a new and farily major villain for one relatively short scene near the end. At least it looks like he will be in the extended edition.<LI>Denethor has no Palantir: Fair enough. The loss of his sons and the hopleless situation should be sufficient to make his actions credible. It's a shame, though, that the character looks to have been simplified to the extent that he is little more than an overbearing father and weak leader, and this does sound like it will be at odds with the nobility of his sons, but I suppose that there is not much time for him to be developed to any greater extent.<LI>Aragorn doesn't use the Palantir: Again a surprise, and it may be in the extended edition, but they are clearly using the Black Gate ploy to get across the idea that Aragorn is drawing Sauron out to give Frodo and Sam a chance. It does rather marginalise the importance of Palantirs in this film, though, which look to serve no other purpose than to bring Gandalf and Pippin to Minas Tirith.<LI>The Army of the Dead at Pelennor Fields: Sounds like this will be used to good dramatic effect, although I hope that it does not diminish the role of Riders of Rohan in coming to Gondor's aid. <LI>No Corsairs of Umbar: The encounter with the Corsairs is supposedly alluded to and it is, I suppose, not necessary for it actually to be portrayed (although, again, it may be in the extended edition). Also, it would be another battle in a film that already looks choc full of battle scenes.</UL>Things that I do have a problem with:<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>No Voice of Saruman: As I've said elsewhere, it seems to me to be cheating the audience not to show the fate of the major villain of the first two films. An aside by Treebeard is not, for me, sufficient to make up for this. But it will be in the extended edtion by the sound of it.<LI>No confrontation between Gandalf and the Witch King: A real shame this, and surprising too as it seems that the Witch King will have a fairly major role in this film. Then again, for me, it takes away more from Gandalf's characterisation than it does from the Witch King's.<LI>No romance at all between Faramir and Eowyn: I had been prepared for this to be dealt with fairly briefly, but I am surprised that it is not in there at all. Since these characters are clearly going to be developed so much more in this film, it seems odd for Jackson not to show the resolution of their stories. And it leaves Eowyn looking, well, just jilted.<LI>No Houses of Healing: Again, I would have been happy for a fairly brief scene here, to help establish Aragorn's right to the throne (as the returning king of the title). No Houses of Healing at all just leaves him establishing his right through military success. Then again, both this scene and the Faramir/Eowyn romance will, I think be in the extended edition.<LI>Arwen's mysterious disease: I'll go so far as to say that this seems utterly ludicrous to me, especially as it seems that no real reason will be given for her state of health being tied to the Ring. And I cannot see any logical reason for it, other than to explain why Elrond returns to Rivendell rather than helping out at the Pelennor (which surely could have been explained in other, more sensible, ways).</UL>There are, though, a good many things that look like they will be handled very well indeed:<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>The Ride of the Rohirrim (with that speech by Theoden ).<LI>Eowyn/Merry and the Witch King.<LI>Pippin's role during the seige of Gondor (I am very much looking forward to seeing both Merry and Pippin coming to the fore in this film).<LI>Shelob's lair (as I said above, this looks like it will work well on screen).<LI>Sam/Frodo in Cirith Ungol, although it's a shame that the Orcs don't fear him to be a great Elven hero. I am also inrigued how he is going to get in there (credibly) if he doesn't use the Ring.<LI>Sammath Naur (this looks to be extremely well done).<LI>Frodo's estrangement and the Grey Havens.</UL>All in all, it looks like Jackson is focussing on the action, given that the Pelennor/Shelob's lair looks to take up an hour or so of the film. But that is to be expected. And I am quite partial to action scenes myself (although I hope that Legolas' trunk surfing isn't too corny). So, I think that I can reconcile myself with the changes, even those that currently disturb me, as there looks to be enough here to redeem them. And it seems like the extended edition will settle most of my major gripes (although I can't see how even that will redeem this silly sick Arwen thing).

Lalaith · 12-02-2003, 05:15 AM

In broad terms, I more or less agree with all of that Saucpan Man, although I feel more strongly about the use of Palantirs by Aragorn and Denethor being kept in. Another thing that really troubles me is that Marty seems to think that Eomer doesn't get to find Eowyn on the battlefield and give his great cry of "Death! Ride, ride to ruin and the world's ending". This was absolutely one of the highlights of the book for me and no amount of special effects wizardry can come in its place. And I am just so appalled by Sick Arwen. If it's any consolation I don't think we actually have to see her ailing, the message comes from Elrond. But I really do blame all the Anti-Arwenites for this, you've only got yourselves to blame for this farrago, you know.

jonathan32 · 12-02-2003, 03:56 PM

I am very disturbed by what I'm reading on this Whtie Council site. it sounds like he did the same thing to ROTK that he did to the Two Towers ... stripped it of all thebest moements fromt he book and filled it with special effects. What is this BS about Arwen being "sick" anyway? And whyd oes it take an hour and a half for the hobbits to get to Shelob? The first movie was great, and I didn't mind any of the deletions, except for the Lorien bit, at all ... but he has royally fed up with the Tow Towers and it looks like he's doing the same thing here. I'm sure this will be an entertaining movie but I think Jackson has performed an enormous bait and switch with fans of the book with all his talk of how much he loved the trilogy. And the saddest part is there is no real reason the movies had to be "improved" in the ways ROTK seems to have been .. movies are about drama and romance and some of the most romantic and dramatic parts have been left out! No director follows the book exactly, but most of them at least try to include the best parts!

ArathorofBarahir · 12-02-2003, 04:09 PM

Thanks for the link, good thing I am too lazy to weed through all of those posts to find any spoilers. Looks like I am just gonna have to wait until the 17th.

Ainaserkewen · 12-02-2003, 04:28 PM

Whoa Saucy...that's deep. I'd use the link but it's been proxied from my computer(stupic parents...think I'm gonna look up porn and buy stuff with their credit cards...grumblegrumble) Anywho...I kind of wish I hadn't just read that, but I'm getting very impatient. And very jealous of everyone that has seen it already. This kind of softens the blow when the 17th rolles around. Oh well, thanks anyway.

Morquesse · 12-03-2003, 06:07 PM

Gorwingel, thank you very much for providing the link. It has prepared me for the changes and I'm very excited about the film. I'm okay now with pretty much all the changes, though I'll wait eagerly for the HoH and Faramir's and Eowyn's romance. See you later! ~M

balrogman · 12-03-2003, 07:33 PM

wow!

Silmiel of Imladris · 12-04-2003, 05:37 PM

So if I get this straight PJ is just going to let Eowyn's and Faramir's story hanging? That will make Aragorn look like kind of a jerk to those who haven't read the books because he let down Eowyn. Stupid love triangle.

Finwe · 12-04-2003, 06:15 PM

I sincerely hope that PJ puts the Faramir/Eowyn romance in the Extended Edition. If not, mobs will descend upon the PJ!!!!

**The Saucepan Man** · 12-04-2003, 07:47 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> That will make Aragorn look like kind of a jerk to those who haven't read the books because he let down Eowyn. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>To be fair, Aragorn does nothing in the book to get Eowyn and Farmair together, so it doesn't really impact upon his character. He can hardly be blamed that they don't hook up in the film.

Silmiel of Imladris · 12-05-2003, 03:40 PM

That isn't really what I meant SaucePan. I mean that all the people who haven't read the books with be like, "I thought for sure he would have chosen Eowyn over Arwen. Yeah, she tried so hard to get him and he just left her hanging. I liked Eowyn better than Arwen,why couldn't Aragorn have married Eowyn? Blah Blah Blah...ETC." See that is what I am afraid of is talk like this and that non-book readers hearts will be crying out for Eowyn while they are mad at Aragorn for choosing Arwen. Hopefully there will be some kind of scene where Aragorn lets Eowyn down easy and tells her that Arwen is his one and only instead of just marrying Arwen with out clearing up anything that happened between them.

**lindil** · 12-09-2003, 12:30 PM

the comprehensive review I have seen thus far: Here, here! <A HREF="http://www.elvesrule.com/rotk_review.html" TARGET=_blank>here</A> is a rather colourful [read: pg-13 language/ enlightened elf-chick style] review by a friend of a friend who HAS seen the review. With a mention of the whole Osacar thing to boot... . oh an it is replete with spoilers.

11-28-2003, 02:58 AM	#1
Gorwingel Beholder of the Mists Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now Posts: 1,436	SPOILERS All questions you could basically ask about ROTK answered OK, they just posted this on TheOneRing.net<P>This is a report from a person who got to see an early screening of ROTK, and he is answering questions. This will basically tell you almost anything you wanted to know about the film. About the only thing I can tell you from this report without spoiling anything is that he thought it was good and very, extremely emotional.<P>I will just warn you he basically tells the entire (but brief) storyline of the film. I personally learned some details that I really didn't want to know (I will now try to clear my mind of some of the things I learned during the next 3 weeks).<P>He basically tells what the beginning, middle, ending, and of course what the whole Saruman/Grima/Palantir thing is going to consist of. But even with the MAJOR SPOILERS, I do feel better about the film, now that I know what I know.<P>So I will just give one more warning<BR>DO NOT CLICK ON THIS LINK IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE SPOILED IN ANY WAY!!!!!<P>THERE IS A POSSIBILITY THAT MANY OF THESE DETAILS COULD RUIN THE FILM FOR YOU!!!<P>CLICK AT YOUR OWN RISK!!!!<P>OK, here it is...<BR><A HREF="http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/8/1070004377" TARGET=_blank>ROTK O&A</A> __________________ Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance

11-28-2003, 06:11 AM	#2
Mariska Greenleaf Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Dublin Posts: 1,045	I couldn't resist...<P>But apparently it is already removed... __________________ I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.- Confucius.

11-28-2003, 04:10 PM	#3
Elladan and Elrohir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Halls of Mandos Posts: 332	OK, Gorwingel, fess up. What did the guy say?<P>Obviously it's the real deal if Peter Jackson told them to remove it from the Net. __________________ "If you're referring to the incident with the dragon, I was barely involved. All I did was give your uncle a little nudge out of the door." THE HOBBIT - IT'S COMING

11-28-2003, 04:19 PM	#4
Luthien_ Tinuviel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2002 Location: A very lovely tree-hut in the Chunnel. Posts: 804	I wanted to know!!! But the thing is, it just might not be the real thing. I'm thinking there's the slight possibility that whoever it is made it up based on educated guesses, and PJ didn't want anyone to go into the theater thinking that that's what would happen. Then again, that is a <I>very</I> slight possibilty..... __________________ I am a nineteen-year-old nomad photographer who owns a lemonade stand. You know what? I love Mip.

11-29-2003, 04:30 PM	#5
Silmiel of Imladris Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Looking into a crystal ball- still see nothing Posts: 395	That is why it is best to make a copy of these things before they are removed. The first verson of the preview comes to mind. __________________ Legolas 20 ales later: I feel something, a slight tingling in my fingers. I think it's affecting me. Figwit on his name: Are you suggesting that I have the wit of a fig?

11-29-2003, 07:40 PM	#6
balrogman Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: that place with the stuff Posts: 102	hmmm i found somethin about a rotk screening, but its not very detailed...here it is <P>SPOILERS<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR> .<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR> .<BR>.<BR>.<BR>ROTK Screening Report!<BR>Xoanon @ 6:31 pm EST<BR>URUK HI THERE writes:<BR>I live in LA and work in the movie business, so I was able to go to the first Academy Awards screening of ROTK yesterday. Thanksgiving day, and they still filled a big theater - I think that says something about the enthusiasm of LOTR's many fans in the film industry! <P>What struck me most was how much ROTK really is the third act of one huge epic. All climax and payoff. I couldn't even begin to count the number of thrilling action sequences. And yet, even more than with the other movies, the emotional focus is tight on the characters. <P>The LOTR movies actually have less in common with fantasy like STAR WARS, and more in common with classic epics like LAWRENCE OF ARABIA and SPARTACUS. So in a fairly traditional sense, ROTK is an old fashioned War Movie. We get the incredible battles, but also the fear in anonymous soldiers' eyes, and our heroes desperately overcoming that fear to do what has to be done - which is of course what MAKES them heroes. Happily, ROTK doesn't glorify war, but rather the impulse for sacrifice, putting yourself on the line for a greater good.<P>But what all LOTR fans will be saying as they leave the theater is "I cried!" Don't bring a date if you don't want them to see you cry. Do bring Kleenex, whatever. If you love these characters, you're going to cry. Like nine times. Sad crying. Happy crying. Happy-sad crying. You get the picture.<P>Legolas does a stunt you will never forget, battling an Oliphaunt (Mumak, whatever). Sam is the bravest character in any movie, ever. Just the sequence of Pippin singing for Denethor while Faramir rides off on a suicide mission should net Peter Jackson a Best Director nomination. Eowyn ROCKS as action heroine. And you really DON'T want to know what comes through that gate when Minas Tirith is breached.<P>That being said, I bet this will be the LOTR pic that improves most on DVD. Obviously the Saruman sequence will be missed by fans. But some of the other character stories definitely seem truncated too.<P>Aragorn has great stuff to do, but we miss a couple of beats in his transformation. No Houses of Healing - in the book, a nice moment where he "proves" his Kingship in a non-warlike way, and where we see how much the people WANT a King. Same with Denethor - we never really get the sense that he is a good and noble man who has fallen low. He seems spiteful, rather than tragic. His sons are so noble, I found that incongruous. And Arwen is barely present, seeming more like she did in the book - a gift-wrapped prize for the King. Finally, though we spend lots of time with Frodo and Sam, even their trip through Mordor is somewhat ellipsed at the end. Jackson et al seemed mainly concerned with making it clear how the Minas Tirith battles are connected with Frodo's story. This was probably a wise choice, especially for the larger audience who may never have read the books.<P>But the bottom line is, this is a massive epic which even three LONG movies can barely contain, and Peter Jackson & Company did a great job of bringing it to an incredibly exciting climax and a VERY fulfilling ending. The last few scenes of the movie are particularly well crafted. There's a very subtle, understated scene after the Hobbits return to the Shire, with almost no dialogue. Everything is told by the looks on their faces. These are good actors! And then there's the Grey Havens. (See KLEENEX, above) <P><BR>cool eh? __________________ should i stay or should i go?

11-29-2003, 11:37 PM	#7
Morquesse Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Past the fields we know.... Posts: 202	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> OK, Gorwingel, fess up. What did the guy say? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, please tell us Gorwingel, before your memory gets rusty. <P>Thank you for the screening review balrogman, but I'm wondering about its authenticity. It seems strange that Arwen barely appears, or that there isn't ANY Houses of Healing parts. I would think we would have at least a tiny bit to see that Eowyn, Faramir and Merry are merely mortal (something the cartoon missed), but we shall have to see. <BR>See you later! <BR>~M __________________ I'm not ashamed to let you know I want this light in me to show. I'm not ashamed to speak the name of Jesus Christ.~Newsboys

11-30-2003, 01:03 AM	#8
Gorwingel Beholder of the Mists Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now Posts: 1,436	I knew that they were going to take this away.<BR>But here is where the report came from...<BR><A HREF="http://www.tolkienonline.com/thewhitecouncil/messageview.cfm?start=0&catid=13&threadid=74209" TARGET=_blank>Tolkien Online</A><BR>I guess it came from a notorious LOTR reviewer. The report on TheOneRing.net had been taken from the information in this topic on this forum. I don't know how valid it is, because I just quickly read the report on TheOneRing before it was deleated, but to me it did sound accurate. I was just so shocked at the time though that he was giving so much away.<P>I am sorry, but I really don't feel comfortable about talking about spoilers right here, but now luckily you can take a look for yourself.<p>[ 2:10 AM November 30, 2003: Message edited by: Gorwingel ] __________________ Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance

11-30-2003, 10:33 AM	#9
Cinderella Wight Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Arda Unmarred, MA Posts: 173	Thanks Gorwingel!<P>I found out a lot from that thread.... some stuff I wish I didn't see though. I must admit i'm a little heartbroken over the absence of Eowyn/Faramir romance and any appearance of Saruman at all... but as far as I can tell those will be the only things the film will lack and E/F romance will be in the EE so I can't complain! __________________ These violent delights have violent ends... "Live fast, die young, and have a beautiful looking corpse." -J. Dean

11-30-2003, 12:29 PM	#10
Silmiel of Imladris Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Looking into a crystal ball- still see nothing Posts: 395	That is way to much info to sift through so I think I will wait. I got my tickets yesterday, Dec 19th at 4:15pm, Whoo Hooo! __________________ Legolas 20 ales later: I feel something, a slight tingling in my fingers. I think it's affecting me. Figwit on his name: Are you suggesting that I have the wit of a fig?

12-01-2003, 04:27 AM	#11
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,876	Thank you for that link. I'm glad I'm prepared for some of those cuts, it would have been far worse to wait til the viewing to find out.<BR>The Theoden problem continues to trouble me (no Merry pledging allegiance) and it seems clear from reading that thread that as they turned Theoden into Denethor-lite in TT, this resulted in having to mess about with Denethor in RotK. <BR>I'm very disappointed by the absence of Faramir/Eowyn. And given how good Eomer is in the film, it's damn shame his story is not being given more airtime.<BR>But what I know I am going to hate is the Arwen storyline which sounds like a complete shambles. I think PJ would have been better to have ignored all the anti-Arwen geeks, the sword-wielding Arwen of FotR was infinitely preferable to this drippy nonsense. __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

12-01-2003, 09:50 PM	#12
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,468	My my, that link is utterly spoilerific in its total spoilericity, isn't it? <P>When I first clicked on it, I only read the first page and didn't understand what all the fuss was about. Then I saw that there were another 40 or so pages ... <P>So, I now feel that I know more or less the entire plot of RotK (the film, that is). But, like Lalaith, I'm glad that I read it, since I feel that I would have been quite disturbed by some of the changes had I come across them for the first time in the cinema. Now, I've got time to come to terms with them and will hopefully enjoy the film all the more. It certainly sounds like it's going to be spectacular.<P>WARNING BIG spoilers follow.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR >.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<P> Changes that I have no problem with:<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>The dramatisation of Shelob's lair: Different from the book, but it sounds like it will work well on screen. I actually like the idea of Gollum turning Frodo against Sam and then Sam turning up to rescue him.<LI>No Mouth of Sauron: This came as a surprise, as I had assumed that he would be in it (although not being on the final cast list did provide a hint, I suppose). On reflection, though, I can see that he isn't necessary for the theatrical release and it would seem strange to those who haven't read the books to introduce a new and farily major villain for one relatively short scene near the end. At least it looks like he will be in the extended edition.<LI>Denethor has no Palantir: Fair enough. The loss of his sons and the hopleless situation should be sufficient to make his actions credible. It's a shame, though, that the character looks to have been simplified to the extent that he is little more than an overbearing father and weak leader, and this does sound like it will be at odds with the nobility of his sons, but I suppose that there is not much time for him to be developed to any greater extent.<LI>Aragorn doesn't use the Palantir: Again a surprise, and it may be in the extended edition, but they are clearly using the Black Gate ploy to get across the idea that Aragorn is drawing Sauron out to give Frodo and Sam a chance. It does rather marginalise the importance of Palantirs in this film, though, which look to serve no other purpose than to bring Gandalf and Pippin to Minas Tirith.<LI>The Army of the Dead at Pelennor Fields: Sounds like this will be used to good dramatic effect, although I hope that it does not diminish the role of Riders of Rohan in coming to Gondor's aid. <LI>No Corsairs of Umbar: The encounter with the Corsairs is supposedly alluded to and it is, I suppose, not necessary for it actually to be portrayed (although, again, it may be in the extended edition). Also, it would be another battle in a film that already looks choc full of battle scenes.</UL><P>Things that I do have a problem with:<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>No Voice of Saruman: As I've said elsewhere, it seems to me to be cheating the audience not to show the fate of the major villain of the first two films. An aside by Treebeard is not, for me, sufficient to make up for this. But it will be in the extended edtion by the sound of it.<LI>No confrontation between Gandalf and the Witch King: A real shame this, and surprising too as it seems that the Witch King will have a fairly major role in this film. Then again, for me, it takes away more from Gandalf's characterisation than it does from the Witch King's.<LI>No romance <I>at all</I> between Faramir and Eowyn: I had been prepared for this to be dealt with fairly briefly, but I am surprised that it is not in there at all. Since these characters are clearly going to be developed so much more in this film, it seems odd for Jackson not to show the resolution of their stories. And it leaves Eowyn looking, well, just jilted.<LI>No Houses of Healing: Again, I would have been happy for a fairly brief scene here, to help establish Aragorn's right to the throne (as the returning king of the title). No Houses of Healing at all just leaves him establishing his right through military success. Then again, both this scene and the Faramir/Eowyn romance will, I think be in the extended edition.<LI>Arwen's mysterious disease: I'll go so far as to say that this seems utterly ludicrous to me, especially as it seems that no real reason will be given for her state of health being tied to the Ring. And I cannot see any logical reason for it, other than to explain why Elrond returns to Rivendell rather than helping out at the Pelennor (which surely could have been explained in other, more sensible, ways).</UL><P>There are, though, a good many things that look like they will be handled very well indeed:<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>The Ride of the Rohirrim (with <I>that</I> speech by Theoden ).<LI>Eowyn/Merry and the Witch King.<LI>Pippin's role during the seige of Gondor (I am very much looking forward to seeing both Merry and Pippin coming to the fore in this film).<LI>Shelob's lair (as I said above, this looks like it will work well on screen).<LI>Sam/Frodo in Cirith Ungol, although it's a shame that the Orcs don't fear him to be a great Elven hero. I am also inrigued how he is going to get in there (credibly) if he doesn't use the Ring.<LI>Sammath Naur (this looks to be <I>extremely</I> well done).<LI>Frodo's estrangement and the Grey Havens.</UL><P>All in all, it looks like Jackson is focussing on the action, given that the Pelennor/Shelob's lair looks to take up an hour or so of the film. But that is to be expected. And I am quite partial to action scenes myself (although I hope that Legolas' trunk surfing isn't <I>too</I> corny). So, I think that I can reconcile myself with the changes, even those that currently disturb me, as there looks to be enough here to redeem them. And it seems like the extended edition will settle most of my major gripes (although I can't see how even that will redeem this silly sick Arwen thing). __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

12-02-2003, 05:15 AM	#13
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,876	In broad terms, I more or less agree with all of that Saucpan Man, although I feel more strongly about the use of Palantirs by Aragorn and Denethor being kept in. <BR>Another thing that really troubles me is that Marty seems to think that Eomer doesn't get to find Eowyn on the battlefield and give his great cry of "Death! Ride, ride to ruin and the world's ending". This was absolutely one of the highlights of the book for me and no amount of special effects wizardry can come in its place. <BR>And I am just so appalled by Sick Arwen. If it's any consolation I don't think we actually have to see her ailing, the message comes from Elrond. But I really do blame all the Anti-Arwenites for this, you've only got yourselves to blame for this farrago, you know. __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

12-02-2003, 03:56 PM	#14
jonathan32 Pile O'Bones Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 11	I am very disturbed by what I'm reading on this Whtie Council site. it sounds like he did the same thing to ROTK that he did to the Two Towers ... stripped it of all thebest moements fromt he book and filled it with special effects. What is this BS about Arwen being "sick" anyway? And whyd oes it take an hour and a half for the hobbits to get to Shelob? The first movie was great, and I didn't mind any of the deletions, except for the Lorien bit, at all ... but he has royally fed up with the Tow Towers and it looks like he's doing the same thing here. I'm sure this will be an entertaining movie but I think Jackson has performed an enormous bait and switch with fans of the book with all his talk of how much he loved the trilogy. And the saddest part is there is no real reason the movies had to be "improved" in the ways ROTK seems to have been .. movies are about drama and romance and some of the most romantic and dramatic parts have been left out! No director follows the book exactly, but most of them at least try to include the best parts!

12-02-2003, 04:09 PM	#15
ArathorofBarahir Wight Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Crickhallow Posts: 247	Thanks for the link, good thing I am too lazy to weed through all of those posts to find any spoilers. Looks like I am just gonna have to wait until the 17th. __________________ King of the Dead: The dead do not suffer the living to pass. Aragorn: You will suffer me.

12-02-2003, 04:28 PM	#16
Ainaserkewen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A cosmic waiting room Posts: 766	Whoa Saucy...that's deep. I'd use the link but it's been proxied from my computer(stupic parents...think I'm gonna look up porn and buy stuff with their credit cards...grumblegrumble) Anywho...I kind of wish I hadn't just read that, but I'm getting very impatient. And very jealous of everyone that has seen it already. This kind of softens the blow when the 17th rolles around. Oh well, thanks anyway. __________________ Solus... I'm eating chicken again. I ate chicken yesterday and the day before... will I be eating chicken again tomorrow? Why am I always eating chicken?

12-03-2003, 06:07 PM	#17
Morquesse Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Past the fields we know.... Posts: 202	Gorwingel, thank you very much for providing the link. It has prepared me for the changes and I'm very excited about the film. <P>I'm okay now with pretty much all the changes, though I'll wait eagerly for the HoH and Faramir's and Eowyn's romance.<BR>See you later! <BR>~M __________________ I'm not ashamed to let you know I want this light in me to show. I'm not ashamed to speak the name of Jesus Christ.~Newsboys

12-03-2003, 07:33 PM	#18
balrogman Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: that place with the stuff Posts: 102	wow! __________________ should i stay or should i go?

12-04-2003, 05:37 PM	#19
Silmiel of Imladris Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Looking into a crystal ball- still see nothing Posts: 395	So if I get this straight PJ is just going to let Eowyn's and Faramir's story hanging? That will make Aragorn look like kind of a jerk to those who haven't read the books because he let down Eowyn. Stupid love triangle. __________________ Legolas 20 ales later: I feel something, a slight tingling in my fingers. I think it's affecting me. Figwit on his name: Are you suggesting that I have the wit of a fig?

12-04-2003, 06:15 PM	#20
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	I sincerely hope that PJ puts the Faramir/Eowyn romance in the Extended Edition. If not, mobs will descend upon the PJ!!!! __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-04-2003, 07:47 PM	#21
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,468	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> That will make Aragorn look like kind of a jerk to those who haven't read the books because he let down Eowyn. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>To be fair, Aragorn does nothing in the book to get Eowyn and Farmair together, so it doesn't really impact upon his character. He can hardly be blamed that they don't hook up in the film. __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

12-05-2003, 03:40 PM	#22
Silmiel of Imladris Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Looking into a crystal ball- still see nothing Posts: 395	That isn't really what I meant SaucePan. I mean that all the people who haven't read the books with be like, "I thought for sure he would have chosen Eowyn over Arwen. Yeah, she tried so hard to get him and he just left her hanging. I liked Eowyn better than Arwen,why couldn't Aragorn have married Eowyn? Blah Blah Blah...ETC." See that is what I am afraid of is talk like this and that non-book readers hearts will be crying out for Eowyn while they are mad at Aragorn for choosing Arwen. Hopefully there will be some kind of scene where Aragorn lets Eowyn down easy and tells her that Arwen is his one and only instead of just marrying Arwen with out clearing up anything that happened between them. __________________ Legolas 20 ales later: I feel something, a slight tingling in my fingers. I think it's affecting me. Figwit on his name: Are you suggesting that I have the wit of a fig?

12-09-2003, 12:30 PM	#23
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,681	the comprehensive review I have seen thus far:<BR>Here, here!<P><BR><A HREF="http://www.elvesrule.com/rotk_review.html" TARGET=_blank>here</A> is a rather colourful [read: pg-13 language/ enlightened elf-chick style] review by a friend of a friend who HAS seen the review. With a mention of the whole Osacar thing to boot...<BR> . <P>oh an it is <B>replete with spoilers</B>. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.