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Old 03-29-2005, 04:19 PM   #1
Findegil
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Drawings, pictures and maps?

Just an aside question which comes to my mind while I am working on the Fall of Nargothrond part of the Narn:
Are we going to include drawings and pictures from JRR Tolkien in our book?

And what about his Maps?

Both questions are not so easy. The drawings and pictures nearly unchangeable at all. Maybe we could change a name in the underscript and even that is difficult if the underscript is part of the picture and no other change seemes possible at all. But some pictures can clearly be used and they would bring a further aspect of Tolkiens view of Middle-Earth.

In the maps we must reproduce the drawing but the names written on it must be fit the nomenclature. Thus the maps will make a lot of trouble. But for me it seems that we need the maps.

So what do you think?

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Old 03-30-2005, 08:18 AM   #2
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Quote:
Are we going to include drawings and pictures from JRR Tolkien in our book?
To tell you the truth, I never did see our work as a book. I just thought that we would hopefully one day finish the chapters of the Sil Project and that would be it.

I think that there was a thread somewhere about maps and pictures. I think that it would be nice for us to have them, especially updated them with the new names and stuff but at least I could not do it.

If you or anyone else wants to do it, great, I can see that it would be a great addition but for me at least, reading our chapters, especially the one about the Narn is enough for me.
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Old 04-26-2006, 01:22 PM   #3
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Pictures that in my opinion should be used in the „Translation from the Elvish / Part One: The Elder Days“. I will give the title of the Picture the chapter in our work were I think it should fit and the book were it can be found there after the no. it has in that book and the page (p.) were it is in my edition. Pictures stands for Pictures by JRR Tolkien and Artist for JRR Tolkien – Artist and Ilustrator edited by Wayne G. Hammond and Christina Scull.

The Hills of the Morning; Akallabeth; Artist; Frontispiece
Cove near the Lizard; FoG; Artist; no.21; p. 25
Tanaqui; QS, Cha. 5; Artist; no.43; p.47
The Shores of Faery; QS, Cha. 5; Artist; no. 44; p. 48
Mithrim; QS, Cha. 15; Artist; no. 46; p. 50
Glórund sets forth to seek Túrin; Narn, The coming of Glaurung; Artist; no. 47; p. 51
Hringboga Heorte Gefysed; QS, Cha. 21; Artist; no. 48; p. 52
NN (Dragon with Warrior); QS, Cha. 21; Artist; no. 49; p. 52
Halls of Manwe (Taniquetil); QS, Cha. 5; Artist; no. 52; p. 56
NN (Mountain Landscape); QS, Cha. 1; Artist; no. 53; p.57
Taur-na-Fúin; Narn, Beleg; Artist; no. 54; p. 58
The Vale of Sirion (Tol Sirion); QS, Cha. 17; Artist; no.55; p. 59
Nargothrond; QS, Cha. 16; Artist; no. 56; p. 60
NN (Nargothrond); Narn, Faelivrin; Artist; no. 57; p. 60
Gondolin & the Vale of Tumladen from Cristhorn; QS, Cha. 18; Artist; no. 58; p. 61
The Wood at the World's End; QS, Cha. 13; Artist; no. 60; p. 63
Heraldic Devices; Pictures; no. 47:
Feanor; QS, Cha. 5
Beren; QS, Cha. 26
Finrod Felagund; QS, Cha. 20
Beor; QS, Cha. 20
Hador; QS, Cha. 20
The Silmarils; QS, Cha. 8
House of Haleth; QS, Cha. 20

Idrils heraldic device; FoG; Artist; no. 189; p. 192
Earendil; FoG; Artist; no. 190; p. 193
Gil-galad; QS, Cha. 32; Artist; no. 190; p. 193
Finwe and Elwe; QS, Cha. 3; Artist; no. 191; p. 194
Finraphin and Fingolfin; QS, Cha. 5; Artist; no. 192; p. 195
Melian; QS, Cha. 4; Artist; no. 193; p. 196
Lúthien Tinuvíel; QS, Cha. 12; Artist; no. 194; p. 197
Lúthien Tinuvíel; BL, Of Lúthien the beloved; Artist; no. 195; p. 197
NN (Grasses); QS, Cha. 1; Artist; no. 196; p. 198
Floral Designs; QS, Cha. 1; Pictures; no. 45
NN (Entrance to the Elvenking's Halls); QS, Cha. 12; Artist; no. 119; p. 125
Three Dragons (the 3rd one); FoG; Pictures; no. 40
NN (Patterns); Muster; the winged sun in the upper right corner); QS, Cha. 3; Artist; no. 183; p. 186
Wickedness; QS, Cha. 1; Artist; no. 32; p. 37
The Tree of Amalion; QS, Cha. 1; Artist; no. 62; p. 64

Feel free to disagree with my choices o pictures and of placement.

Respecfully
Findegil

Last edited by Aiwendil; 04-28-2006 at 11:43 AM.
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Old 04-26-2006, 01:55 PM   #4
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I'll go through and correct those to the English names, if you like.

And yes, I am still making every effort to continue with the work on Beren and Luthien - I should have some more comments up in a day or so.
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Old 04-27-2006, 02:58 PM   #5
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Good to know - for both parts of your message.

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Old 04-28-2006, 10:40 AM   #6
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Okay, I've corrected the titles. I will give my thoughts on the pictures later. However, it seems to me that "Eeriness" (Artist No. 40) and "Water, Wind & Sand" (Artist No. 42) ought to have a place in your list.
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Old 04-28-2006, 02:16 PM   #7
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Thanks for the correction.

I agree fully on "Eeriness", but I thought of using it in one of the later volumes. It seems perfect as a illustration of one of the Istari.

"Water, Wind and Sand" I missed that one. We will put it in its proper place as an illsutration of "The Horns of Ylmir". "Cove near Lizard" (which I would have used in that place) should than be placed (I think) as illustration of the incoming flood observed by Tuor in the fjord of Drengist.

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Old 03-22-2019, 01:16 PM   #8
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It is a long time since we last discussed about this topic! And by re-reading this short thread I found that I probably must now extend my list at least through Volume II. But that’s only another point on my agenda (maybe the next).

As I have already started to work with the Maps and Diagrams from the Ambrakanta, I am now very confident that I can handle as well other maps. Beside the three Diagrams and two Maps of the Ambrakanta three maps are set, I think:
- A Version of the 2nd Silmarillion Map form HoME 11 for Volume I.
- The Map of Númenor from UT for Volume II, The Black Years.
- A Version of the 1st LotR Map from Tolkien: Maker of Middle-earth for Volume II, The Fading Years.

Other maps are more questionable:
- A Version of 2nd Silmarillion Map form HoME 11 for Volume I, Of Beleriand and it’s Realms: Christopher Tolkien did kind of split the content of the 2nd Silmarillion Map for greater clearness. And in this place he added the part of the split that could be named a political map of Beleriand. It is an option we should at least discuss.
- Verious maps that Tolkien had drawn for The Hobbit in part with the way of Thorin & Co. Marked on it from The Art of The Hobbit.
- A map of the Shire. I am not sure if we have an original source for this, but if yes it is still questionale if it makes sense in our project.
- The 2nd LotR Map meaning the map of Gondor, Mordor and Co. As fare as I remember Christopher Tolkien redrawing is very near to the original and it is includes in LotR it self, which we alway looked at as kind of companion to our project.

To all these maps I will come back sooner or later. But for the time being I want to discuss with you a much more difficult case: While I worked on Ambrakanta Map IV & Map V I found references to the 1st Map from HoME I. As it is, that map is unuseabel. But in one point it is unique: It does provide details about where is what in Valinor. The 1st Map is indeed very much in agreement with the text of BoLT in which Valinor and the mansions of the Valar are described. And we have taken up many passages from BoLT exactly because they do the same as 1st Map: They provide details about Valionor that are never again mentioned. As we know from Ambrakanta Map IV & Map V the shape of Valinor greatly changed. But as our text stands the relative placement inside that realm of all the features marked on the 1st Map were still the same.
My proposal is the following: rebuild only the Valiorean part of 1st Map to agree in shape to Ambrakanta Map V and lable all the unlabled features on that Map. So the labels I would take are:

Labels on the map:
M… Ice => Helcaraxë

Letters discussed in the comments:
a: Valimar
b: The Two Trees
c: Halls of Mandos
d: Kôr => Tirion
e: ‘the low place in the hills' by which Melko and his following passed out of Valinor into Arvalin-Eruman, a gap left by Tulkas and Aule for their own entry into Valinor at the time of the raising of the mountains => I think we have to remove this feature.
h: Eruman => Avathar
j: potential coast lines, the lable is to be removed
k: from east to west: the Magic Isles; Tol Eressëa; the Twilit Isles; we have to remove these and add the Isle from Ambrakanta Map V

Features not named on the map or discussed in the comments:
The dot south of c: Sirnumen => Formenos
The dot between d and e: Murmuran (the dwelling of Lóriën)
The dot south west of h: Ungoliant’s Lair

Features to be added from Ambrakanta Map V beside the Isle:
Aqualondë as a square like Valimar and Tirion
the dots in the south of the plain of Valinor: Aulë’s House
Valinor it self as a lable for the country.

The original 1st Map was on a manuscript page within the text of the chapter: The theft of Melko and the Darkening of Valinor. Therefore I would include that map in our QS; Cha. 10 Of the Drakening of Valinor.

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Old 03-27-2019, 08:26 PM   #9
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I agree with your choice of the three maps you think are set. As for the other maps:

- Beleriand and its Realms: I think having a map of some sort for the "Beleriand and its Realms" chapters is a good idea. That chapter is hard to follow without a reference.

- Art of the Hobbit: I also like the idea of including the maps from Art of the Hobbit.

- The Shire : As far as I know, the only map of the Shire which Tolkien himself drew is the one in Tolkien:Maker of Middle-Earth on page 390: "First sketch map of the Shire". It's pretty crude and would require quite a bit of work. I don't think a map of the Shire is necessary, but if you're up to it I would say go for it. Speaking of "Tolkien:Maker of Middle-Earth", I'm finally going to the Morgan in April to see the exhibit! I can't wait!

- 2nd LotR map Since the Lord of the Rings can be viewed as a companion piece to our work, I'm not sure we need to include the map of Gondor and Mordor, since the map is already there. Then again, we do pull in bits from the Appendices. If you can find a good place to put it, I would be open to it.

- The earliest map in BoLT : I think adding in the Valinor labels into Map V is a great idea! Including it in the "Darkening of Valinor" chapter makes sense. I agree with your ideas, including the removal of "e": the gap in the mountains."

You might've just forgotten to include it, but label "g" should be "Hisilómë". Also I think we should put a dot on the west border next to "c" for "Nienna's house" which are:

Quote:
...west of West, upon the borders of the world; and she comes seldom to the city of Valimar where all is glad. She goes rather to the halls of Mandos, which are near to her own...
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Old 03-28-2019, 11:57 PM   #10
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The earliest map in BoLT: Adding details into Map V was not the way I did, even so the results looks like that. Maybe I will tryout an alternative approach: showing only a cutout from the original 1st Map and living with the differences.
“g”: I did not forget about “g” but it is by choice not included in the part of the map that I would use.
Niënna’s house: Okay I added Aulë’s house, but that I did because I saw a hint for it’s position in Map V. And it was clear that it is on the borderline. To add Niënna’s without any hint beside the text, where it was, seem to risky to me.

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Old 03-29-2019, 11:11 AM   #11
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The earliest map in BoLT: Ahh, re-reading your original post I see what your plan is with this map. That makes sense to me. If you don't rebuild the map of Valinor to agree with Map V, the differences could feasibly be accounted to the maps being made by different people and imperfect knowledge of the map-makers.

Nienna's House: OK, that's fair. I agree with not including it.
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