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Old 07-11-2018, 10:47 PM   #1
ArcusCalion
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Silmaril The Hunt for the Ring

This is the first draft of the chapter The Hunt for the Ring.

This chapter uses the text of The Hunt for the Ring from UT as a base text, and I mark the first instance of the main text. In UT, several variants and later or contemporary versions are given, and so wherever these are inserted into the story, I have used a marker.

The markings are:
FY-HL-xx for all the headlines for the Fading Years.
HR-SL-xx for all expansions and changes to the narrative.

Some conventions of my writing:

Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalized text, normally only used for general changes, as well as changes which are a part of replacement that is not grammatical.
Underlined Text = text changed for grammatical reasons in the process of combining and inserting and removing.
<source example> = additions with source information
...... = This section of the paragraph is unchanged from the source.

Quote:
FY-HL-17 <THE HUNT FOR THE RING>

HR-SL-01 <ORP Now by fortune and his vigilance Mithrandir first learned of the Ring, ere Sauron had news of it; ..... and he sent forth the Nazgűl to take it.>
HR-SL-02 <HR text A
Gollum was captured in Mordor in the year 3017 and taken to Barad-dűr, and there questioned and tormented. HR-SL-03 <HR text D Gollum would not know the term ‘Hobbit,’ which was local and not a universal Westron word. He would ...... But for it, the Black Riders would have reached the Shire weeks sooner.>
When he had learned what he could from him, ...... would thus be led to the Ring. HR-SL-04 <HR text D {[}After his release from Mordor{]} Gollum soon disappeared into the Dead Marshes, where Sauron's emissaries could not or would not follow him.>
Gollum, however, was before long ..... beside the banks of the Gladden.
Now Sauron learning of the capture of Gollum by the chiefs of his enemies was in great haste and fear. HR-SL-05 <HR text B When and how this happened cannot of course .... on the twenty-first of March. [Footnote: Gandalf arrived two days later, ..... journey of nearly eight hundred miles.]
It is thus most likely that the first news of Gollum ..... and that Gandalf had passed into Thranduil's realm.>
Yet all his ordinary spies and emissaries ...... which Sauron held.
Now few could withstand even one ..... perceived and their mission be guessed by the Wise. HR-SL-06 <HR text B {All}In addition, all except the Witch-king were apt to stray when alone by daylight; and all, again save the Witch-King, feared water, and were unwilling, except in dire need, to enter it or to cross streams unless dryshod by a bridge. [Footnote: At the Ford of Bruinen only the Witch-king and two others, with the lure of the Ring straight before them, had dared to enter the river; the others were driven into it by Glorfindel and Aragorn.]>
So it was that Sauron prepared two strokes ..... These things were done towards the end of June 3018. HR-SL-07 <HR text B In the panic of the first assault, when the Witch-king was allowed to reveal himself briefly in his full terror, the Nazgűl crossed the bridge at night and dispersed northwards.> Thus Sauron tested the strength and preparedness of Denethor, ..... his policy of war against Gondor.
Therefore when Osgiliath was taken .... abode in Dol Guldur as Sauron's lieutenant, with HR-SL-08 {one other}two others as his messengers. <From Note 1: [Footnote: {From notes counting in detail the movements of the Black Riders in the Shire it emerges that it}It was Khaműl who came to Hobbiton and spoke to Gaffer Gamgee, who followed the Hobbits along the road to Stock, and who narrowly missed them at the Bucklebury Ferry {(see p.360)}. The Rider who accompanied him, whom he summoned by cries on the ridge above Woodhall, and with whom he visited Farmer Maggot, was {"}one of his companions from Dol Guldur.{"} Of Khaműl it is said {here} that he was the most ready of all the Nazgűl after the Black Captain himself, to perceive the presence of the Ring, but also the one whose power was most confused and diminished by daylight.]>
The Lord of Morgul therefore led his ..... seeking for the Shire, the land of the Halflings.

HR-SL-09 <HR It seems clear that pursued both by Elves and Orcs Gollum .... after which all trace of him was lost.
What then happened to Gollum cannot of course ...... for Gollum that the Nine Walkers arrived when they did.>

About the twenty-second of July HR-SL-10 {they}the Ringwraiths met their ....... learn any news that availed them.
At length they returned; but the summer ..... and secrecy must be abandoned.
The Ringwraiths therefore were ordered ..... was coming on the heels of the black horses.
HR-SL-11 <HR text C The Black Riders arrived at the Gate of Isengard while Gandalf was still a prisoner in the tower. {In this account,} Saruman, in fear and despair, ..... Eagle flying towards Edoras.
Now Saruman's case was worse. If Gandalf ..... Master that you have done so.’
This skillful speech convinced even the Witch-king ...... some bearing messages to him.
When he was rid of the Riders Saruman ..... Eriador all the spies, spy-birds, and agents that he could muster.>
HR-SL-12
{Two days after Gandalf had departed from Orthanc, .....
...
...
...
...
...
...
... would slay him with torture.}
HR-SL-13 <HR text C When the Black Riders were far across Enedwaith and drawing near at last to Tharbad, they had what was for them a great stroke of good fortune, but disastrous for Saruman, and deadly perilous for Frodo.
Saruman had long taken an interest ...... Isengard Saruman was still recognized as an ally.
Some while ago one of Saruman's most trusted servants ...... and notes concerning the Shire.
This Dunlending was overtaken ..... for immediate visit and enquiry.
The Witch-king had now a clearer understanding ...... and sent turn on to Bree as an agent. HR-SL-14 {He was the squint-eyed southerner at the Inn.}>
Night was waning on the twenty-second ...... Gandalf upon Shadowfax was riding over Rohan far behind.>
HR-SL-15 <HR text B
{In version B it is noted that the}The Black Captain did not know ...... while he himself visited the Barrow-downs. HR-SL-16 {In notes on the movements of the Black Riders at that time it is said that the}The Black Captain stayed there for some days, and the Barrow-wights were roused, and all things of evil spirit, hostile to Elves and Men, were on the watch with malice in the Old Forest and on the Barrow-downs.>
FY-HL-17: This title is self-explanatory, as the main text of the chapter is from this work.

HR-SL-01: We start off the chapter with the bit from Of the Rings of Power which describes (in brief) the events prior to LotR. It serves as a nice introduction to the material of the chapter, which is concerned with Saruon's hunt for the Ring.

HR-SL-02: Here we enter into the base text of the chapter, text A of The Hunt for the Ring.

HR-SL-03: Here we pull in the first expansion from another version of the text. This is from text D, which expands on Gollum's role in the events. This information is worth giving.

HR-SL-04: Another tidbit from text D worth giving.

HR-SL-05: These movements of Aragorn are given in text B, and are worth giving, and I think this is the place that fits them best. I have chopped up much of the text B snippet given, and I have also not used all of it, but only because it is mostly redundant with text A, giving in some places no new info. I have taken all the bits I feel are substantially different enough to warrant giving.

HR-SL-06: These are given as weaknesses of the Nazgul in text B, so I felt they belonged here, where their weakness is discussed in text A.

HR-SL-07: This detail is absent from text A, so i took it from B.

HR-SL-08: CT notes that in the Tale of Years, it lists three Nazgul as dwelling in Dol Guldur, and that he thinks this is a slip of the pen for Tolkien, so I think we should follow his word, especially since it is such a minor change. I took the bits from the note that were worth giving.

HR-SL-09: This information about Gollum entering Moria is not given outside of text D, and sets the stage for his introduction into the narrative of LotR later.

HR-SL-10: Because of the text D addition, the 'they' has lost its antecedent. I changed it to be correct.

HR-SL-11: This is the most radical change to the base narrative, however, text C is later than text A, so it would (by our rules) represent the more correct version to give. Therefore I replaced all of this part of the story in text A with the version given in text C.

HR-SL-12: I mark here the deletion of the old text A story.

HR-SL-13: Here we return to the text C story at the point where we left off.

HR-SL-14: This reference to a very specific event in LotR does not work for me. No matter what we include in the draft for the next chapter, we will not mention the squint-eyed southerner from the inn, so this reference will go unexplained. I would rather remove it. There may be other such references which I missed, which should maybe also be removed.

HR-SL-15: This snippet of text B seems to be the latest piece of info on the movements of the Black Riders given in the UT text. In Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion more bits are published, but they refer to very specific events in LotR, and the narrative is presented in near bullet-point form, and I think is not worth including, due to both of these reasons. Therefore, I think we can end the chapter here.

HR-SL-16: This is just cleaning it up from CT commentary into narrative.

Last edited by ArcusCalion; 07-11-2018 at 10:58 PM.
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Old 07-13-2018, 05:21 PM   #2
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I have few remarks about this chapter. Everything I don’t comment on I agree to.

HR-SL-02: The addition itself is okay but after it I think we should change the following:
Quote:
When he had learned what he could from {him}Gollum Sauron released him ...
A tipo found here (marked broad)
Quote:
… But all that you need to know on the mission that he has given you is where 'the Shire' lies. That says Mithrandir, is northwest from here some six hundred miles, …
HR-SL-12: I think you removed too much. Later when they approach Sarn Ford our text says ‘Night was waning on the twenty-second day of September when drawing together again they came to Sarn Ford …’. So they must have been split. I would edit as follows below.
HR-SL-14: I think we can be sure that readers of our work know LotR and Hobbit. So we should be glad of these ‘bridges’, and not remove them.
And another three typos brqad printed in the middle and last give paragraph.
Quote:
… sent out into Eriador all the spies, spy-birds, and agents that he could muster.>
HR-SL-12b{Two days after Gandalf had departed from Orthanc, …



… Sauron's vengeance could wait.}
Now he divided his company into four pairs, and they rode separately, but he himself went ahead with the swiftest pair, Thus they passed west out of Rohan, and explored the desolation of Enedwaith HR-SL-13b{, and came at last to Tharbad}.<HR text C When the Black Riders were far across Enedwaith and drawing near at last to Tharbad, …



Saruman had long taken an interest in the Shire – because Gandalf did, and he was suspicious of him; … When Gandalf had refused to treat with him Saruman had redoubled his efforts. …



… He put therefore the Shadow of Fear on the Dunlending, and sent him on to Bree as an agent. HR-SL-14 He was the squint-eyed southerner at the Inn.> Thence they rode through Minhiriath, and even though they were not yet assembled a rumor of dread spread about them, and the creatures of the wild hid themselves, and lonely men fled away. HR-SL-14.5{But some fugitives on the road they captured; and to the delight of the Captain two proved to be spies and servants of Saruman. One of them had been used much in the traffic between Isengard and the Shire, and though he had not himself been beyond the Southfarthing he had charts prepared by Saruman which clearly depicted and described the Shire. These the Nazgűl took, and then sent him on to Bree to continue spying; but warned him that he was now in the service of Mordor, and that if ever he tried to return to Isengard they would slay him with torture.}
Night was waning on the twenty-second day of September …
HR-SL-15: In the text A that we used, the Stoors have been died out long before the Hunt for the Ring. So must remove the attack here in text B. I do nit agree that we should end the Hunt here, but we might discuss this issue after you posted the draft of the next chapter.

HR-SL-16: This at least we have in the words of JRR Tolkien:
Quote:
HR-SL-15<HR text B{In version B it is noted that the}The Black Captain did not know whether the Ring was still in the Shire; that he had to find out. The Shire was too large for a violent onslaught HR-SL-15.2{ such as he had made on the Stoors}; he must use as much stealth and as little terror as he could, and yet also guard the eastern borders. Therefore he sent HR-SL-15.4{some}<The Lord of the Rings Companion; Three is Company five> of the Riders into the Shire, with orders to disperse while traversing it; and of these Khaműl was to find Hobbiton, where ‘Baggins’ lived, according to Saruman's papers. HR-SL-15.4<The Lord of the Rings Companion; Three is Company {[}One{]} keeps to the east, passing northwards, towards the Marish, and the Bridge. {[}One{]} takes road leading northwest to Michel Delving, and {[}another{]} goes with him, but there [?]fares on and traverses the North Farthing. {[}The other tow{]} go through the central Shire, until they reach the East Road, probably near the Three-Farthing Stone. ({[}These{]} were probably Khaműl and his companion, from Dol Guldur; and {[}Khaműl{]} {[}is{]} the most ready of all (save {[}the Witch-King{]}) to perceive the presence of the Ring, but also the one whose power was most confused and diminished by sunlight). Drawn by the Ring {[}Khaműl{]} goes to Hobbiton which he reaches at evening on {Fri. Sept.}Friday September 23rd. {[}His companion{]} keeps an eye on the East Road and Stock Road, lurking probably between the two, just south of Whitefurrows. {[}Khaműl{]} just misses Frodo, and misled by the {Gaffers [sic]}Gaffer starts out east again.
{[}On 24 September he{]} picks up the stock Road, and overtakes Frodo at approaches to Woody End – probably by accident; he becomes uneasily aware of the Ring but is hesitant and uncertain because of the bright sun. He turns into the woods and waits for night.
>HR-SL-16b<The Lord of the Rings Companion; Fog on the Barrow-Downs {In Marquette MSS 4/2/36 (The Hunt for the Ring) it is said that after}After the Black Riders had overcome the Rangers guarding Sarn Ford, four of the Riders{
} pursue the Rangers along Greenway, and having slain them or driven them off Eastwards, make a camp at Andrath (where the road passes between the Barrowdowns and the South Downs){ [cf. note for p.177]}. {[}The Witch-king{]} now visits the Barrowdowns and stops there for some days (probably until late on 27th). This proves a main error, though in fact it was nearly successful, since the Barrowwights {are}were roused, and all things of evil spirit, hostile to Elves and Men, {are}were on the watch with malice in the Old Forest and on the Barrowdowns. {[}The other three Black Riders{]} are left to guard the eastern borders, to watch Greenway, and guard against Elves or Dúnedain coming from eastwards.>
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Old 07-13-2018, 06:50 PM   #3
ArcusCalion
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I agree with everything except HR-SL-15.4 for two reasons. The first and smaller one is that there remain a good many verbs that are in the present tense, when they should be in past tense, which I have changed (this problem also exists in 16b, but I agree to that change, and I corrected them on my draft). The larger issue with this insert, which is related to why I did not put it in, is that ir is very spefiic with its description of events of LotR, far more so than any text we can hope to create. In fact, if we keep this addition at all, I think we must move it to next chapter, since it takes place so clearly after Frodo has left Hobbiton. Therefore, I think if we decide to keep this addition, we should move it to the next chapter, and if we do not keep this change, we can leave it here. As you say, either way, it requires review of the next chapter's draft, so I will post that as soon as possible. Once I post that draft, we may discuss there how best to incorporate these lines.
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Old 07-13-2018, 08:22 PM   #4
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Actually, reviewing the draft for the next chapter, I think it is best to take the entire addition of HR-SL-15 through the end of HR-SL-15.4 and move it to the next chapter. It fits into that draft quite smoothly. I will place it there in my post for that chapter. I also added in the rest of the Hunt for the Ring narrative given in A Reader's Companion.

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Old 07-13-2018, 11:59 PM   #5
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Sorry to triple post, but I found this addition for the chapter only just now. Right after HR-SL-11 finishes and the part I removed (HR-SL-12) begins, I propose we add this in given in A Reader's Companion from the Hunt for the Ring manuscripts:
Quote:
HR-SL-11.5 <Lord of the Rings Companion; The Council of Elrond Gandalf {escapes}escaped on the night of 17/18. {Full}It was a Full Moon 6 days waned, but bright because the weather after long cloud {has}had become clear. Gandalf {cannot}could not descend on an Eagle before the Gates of Edoras, and in any case {has}had to avoid the pursuit of Saruman. He {is}was set down therefore by Gwaihir in the foothills of the White {Mts.}Mountains at dawn on September 18 (west of Edoras), and {does}did not come to Edoras until Sept 19 - in a beggarly guise on foot. He {cannot}could not get an audience with Théoden, {[}the king{]}, and {is}was treated as a beggar at the doors. It {is}was not until {Sept}September 20 that his persistence (and growing anger which {alarms}alarmed the doorwards) {gains}gained him entrance to Théoden, warning him against Saruman. Wormtongue (secretly in Saruman's service, and with great influence over the king) {is}was absent HR-SL-11.7 {for some reason} and Théodred, {[}the king's son{]}, {is}was more favorable to Gandalf; so Théoden {is}was troubled but {will}would not make up his mind. He {says}said he {will}would speak of it again next day. But on the next day, the 21 of September, Wormtongue {reappears}reappeared. It was really for him that Théoden waited (since he {has}had become enthralled by his counsel).
Wormtongue {now opposes}then opposed Gandalf as Théoden {bids}bade him begone next morning: it then being late in the day. ({W'tongue}[Wormtongue] (as {G.}[Gandalf] {guesses}guessed or {knows}knew) {sends}sent off a messenger to Isengard that night. But the messenger even with utmost haste {does}did not reach Saruman until late on the 24 of {[}September{]}. It {is}was about 250 miles from Edoras to Isengard.)
Gandalf {says}said that this {is}was ill-treatment which Théoden {will}would rue. He {does}did not understand the urgency of the times. He {mentions}mentioned the dreadful rumors of the passage of the Black Riders which have terrified all Rohan. Now,’ said Gandalf, ‘if no one else dare oppose these evil things, I dare. But not on foot. One might look for aid in such business from a great king, lord of horses. Then Théoden rashly {exclaims}exclaimed: {why}’Why, take any horse you wish - and begone! This {is}was much to dislike of {W'tongue}[Wormtongue] but Théoden {is}was reluctant to take back his word, and Théodred {opposes W'tongue}opposed Wormtongue, saying that a king {cannot}could not do so even to a beggar, but that for his part he {thinks}thought more honor and heed should be paid to Gandalf Greyhame.
So on 22 {[}September{]} Gandalf {leaves}left Edoras and {goes}went to the horse-sheds. (They {are}were some way from Edoras. Gandalf {does}did not get there until evening{?}) There he {sees}saw Shadowfax, and {decides}decided to have him alone. {S'fax}[Shadowfax] {is}was wild wary and unwilling, and {walks}walked away whenever Gandalf {approaches}approached. It {is}was not till late on the 22 that {S'fax will}Shadowfax would allow Gandalf to come up and speak to him; and not until Sept 23rd that he {is}was tamed and {will}would allow Gandalf to ride off. Gandalf {sets}set off 6 pm 23rd of September.>
HR-SL-11.7: I removed this because in the narrative before this addition, it says that Wormtongue was still on his way back to Rohan from Isengard at the time of Gandalf's escape, so we don't need to say 'for some reason,' as we have already given the reason.
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Old 07-15-2018, 08:41 AM   #6
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HR-SL-11.5: Godd find! I agree, so I think we should edit it in on place a bit different:
Quote:
Gandalf {says}said that this {is}was ill-treatment which Théoden {will}would rue{. He does}, and that Theoden did not understand the urgency of the times. He {mentions}mentioned the dreadful rumors of the passage of the Black Riders which have terrified all Rohan. ...
To the issue with the structure I will come back, when I have analysed the next chapter in more detail.

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Old 07-15-2018, 10:04 AM   #7
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Agreed to the editing change, and I await your restructuring proposal.
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Old 02-01-2019, 08:59 AM   #8
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I agree with Fin's comments that you did an excellent and admirable job editing this chapter, Arcus! I will include my comments on "The Hunt for the Ring" and "The Ring Sets Out" which was moved to the end of this chapter.

1) A specific comment followed by a more general concern. I have bolded the section I wish to discuss:

Quote:
For too great was the evil power of this thing for any of the Wise to wield, unless like Curunír he wished himself to become a tyrant and a dark lord in his turn...
I agree with Fin in the "Hunt for the Ring" thread that we can probably assume readers of our text are familiar with LotR, but I think directly alluding to a very specific event which will happen later in our text makes it feel disjointed. In this case the betrayal by Curunir happens in the next paragraph, so I think we should remove "like Curunir" here and I think in general we should try to limit direct references of something which occurs later in our text.

2) I cannot find the edit HR-SL-01.6 in this thread or the "Hunt for the Ring" thread. I think it is a good addition, but we should remove the editorial comment "earlier in this version". Also, there is a detail about the fate of the Stoors in Note 9 of the UT chapter "The Hunt for the Ring" which came from Letter 214. I think it fits well after HR-SL-0.16:

Quote:
RSO-SL-03 {[Footnote: It is later revealed that this is}This was owing to the treason of Saruman, chief wizard, who {attempts}attempted to imprison Gandalf and force him to join the Enemy party. {], and Frodo and his hobbit-servant Sam and two younger kinsmen {go}went off alone into the wild - in the nick of time, just as the Black Riders of Mordor (the Nine Ring-slaves in disguise) {reach}reached the Shire.}> HR-SL-01.6 <HR {Earlier in this version i}It is said that Sauron had at this time, by means of the palantíri, at last begun to daunt Saruman, and could in any case often read his thought even when he withheld information. Thus Sauron was aware that Saruman had some guess at the place where the Ring was; and Saruman actually revealed that he had got as his prisoner Gandalf, who knew the most.>
HR-SL-01.7 <Letter 214 Between 2463 {[when Déagol the Stoor found the One Ring, according to the Tale of Years]} and the beginning of Gandalf’s special enquiries concerning the Ring (nearly 500 years later) {they [}the Stoors{]} appear {indeed} to have died out altogether (except, of course, for Sméagol); or to have fled from the shadow of Dol Guldur.>
3) I think we should restructure the beginning of "The Journey of the Black Riders". It would make the text smoother if everything related to Gollum's capture by Sauron is collected together and presented before Gollum's capture by Aragorn:

Quote:
HR-SL-02 <HR Gollum was captured in Mordor in the year 3017 and taken to Barad-dűr, and there questioned and tormented. HR-SL-03 <HR text D Gollum would not know the term ‘Hobbit,’...From all the accounts it is clear that Gollum did at least know in which direction the Shire lay{; but though no doubt more could have been wrung from him by torture...in the same region as Gollum himself had once lived}. HR-SL-03.1 <Moved from below But {F}from Gollum, even under pain, he could not get any clear account...the land of the Halflings was near to the places where he had once dwelt beside the banks of the Gladden.>
HR-SL-03.2 <Moved from below Now Sauron had never paid heed to the ‘Halflings,'...But for it, the Black Riders would have reached the Shire weeks sooner.>
When he had learned what he could from {him}Gollum, Sauron released him and sent him forth again. ...Sauron hoped that his spies would thus be led to the Ring. HR-SL-04 <HR text D {[}After his release from Mordor{]} Gollum soon disappeared into the Dead Marshes, where Sauron's emissaries could not or would not follow him.>
Gollum, however, was before long captured by Aragorn, and taken to Northern Mirkwood; and though he was followed, he could not be rescued before he was in safe keeping. {Now Sauron had never paid heed to the ‘Halflings,’ even if he had heard of them, and he did not yet know where their land lay. From Gollum, even under pain...believed that the land the Halflings was near to the places where he had once dwelt beside the banks of the Gladden.}
Now Sauron learning of the capture of Gollum by the chiefs of his enemies was in great haste and fear...
After re-organizing this, it seems that there is a contradiction. The two accounts are: (in Text A) Sauron assumes Baggins is in the Vales of Anduin or (in Text D) Gollum tells Saruon Baggins is in the Vales of Anduin. It is unclear from Unfinished Tales which is the later form of the story, I think we have to pick one (unless someone can find other evidence related to which version Tolkien ultimately decided on.

4)
Quote:
[Footnote: At the Ford of Bruinen only the Witch-king and two others, with the lure of the Ring straight before them, had dared to enter the river; the others were driven into it by Glorfindel and Aragorn.]>
This footnote explains what is directly included in the text as RSO-SL-20. I propose we remove this footnote.

5) We never mention that Gollum escapes from Thranduil in the text. The best description I could find from the event that doesn't come straight from LotR is from the Tale of Years:

Quote:
The Orcs assailed the realm of Thranduil, with orders to recapture Gollum; and the Lord of Morgul was sent forth openly to battle against Gondor. HR-SL-06.5 <Tale of Years {Around}At the {same} time{,} Thranduil {is}was attacked {and}, Gollum escape{s}d.> These things were done towards the end of June 3018.
6)
Quote:
, [Footnote: These were in fact not very numerous, it would seem; but sufficient to keep any intruders out, if not better armed or prepared than Balin's company, and not in great numbers.]
Have we included in the narrative at some point Balin's quest to re-take Moria? I couldn't find it anywhere.

7)
Quote:
The Witch-king thus learned that Saruman knew well all along where the Shire was, and knew much about it, which he could and should have told to Sauron's servants if he had been a true ally.
But doesn't Saruman basically tell the Riders where the Shire is earlier on?

Quote:
But all that you need to know on the mission that he has given you is where 'the Shire' lies. That says Mithrandir, is northwest from here some six hundred miles, on the borders of the seaward Elvish country.’ To his pleasure Saruman saw that even the Witch-king did not relish that. You must cross Isen by the Fords, and then rounding the Mountains' end make for Tharbad upon Greyflood. Go with speed, and I will report to your Master that you have done so.’
He tells them it is on the border of the seaward Elvish country, which is exactly where the Shire is. But he also tells them to go to Tharbad, which is only part of the way to the Shire. I'm not sure how to interpret Saruman's confrontation with the Riders. Is he deliberately trying to trick them?

8) At the very end of the chapter:

Quote:
It was no doubt at the end of 1418 that Sauron (likely aided by /the Witch-king of/ Angmar)...
I think the date should be 3018. I don't have a copy of the Lord of the Rings Companion to check.

9)
Quote:
HR-SL-16.1 <Lord of the Rings Companion; Fog on the Barrow-Downs {the}The Witch-King had known something of the country long ago, in his wars with the Dúnedain, and especially of the Tyrn Gorthad of Cardolan, now the Barrow-downs, whose evil wights had been sent there by himself.>
This is a repeat of a sentence which occurs earlier right before HR-SL-14 . I think it fits better there, so we should remove HR-SL-16.1 .

10)
Quote:
{[}The Witch-king{] now knows}then knew who {is}was the Bearer, and {is}was greatly puzzled that it should be a small creature, and not Aragorn, who {seems}seemed to be a great power though apparently 'only a Ranger'.
Earlier Khamul tells him the Bearer is a small creature:

Quote:
But {[}he {]is}was told that Khaműl{] has}had discovered that the Bearer {is}was a very small spiritless creature with no pride or will power, and {is}was filled with terror at the approach of a Ringwraith.)
Is this a contradiction? Or is the Witch-King assuming that the "small creature" must have given the ring to Aragorn when they met?

11) Typos:

Quote:
just above Sam Gebir
"Sarn Gebir"

Quote:
He thought that the direction of the Riders to the Shire might hinder then
"hinder them"

Quote:
This {is}was much to dislike of {W'tongue}[Wormtongue]
"the dislike"

Quote:
{[}One{]} {takes}took road
"the road"

Quote:
...{[}he{] is}was uneasily aware that many enemies {are}were watching him and though none {has}had yet come with power to challenge him.
Again I don't have LotR Companion to check, but "and" should be removed for this sentence to grammatically make sense.

Quote:
{[}He{] is}was waylaid by Dúnedain and driven away {does}did not reach {[}the Witch-king{]} until the next day.
An "and" should be added:

Quote:
{[}He{] is}was waylaid by Dúnedain and driven away and {does}did not reach {[}the Witch-king{]} until the next day.
Quote:
The road between Bridge and Bree ...
"the Bridge and Bree"

Quote:
. But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How he had come by it - save in the Barrows of Cardolan.
I think this should be a question, i.e.:

Quote:
How {he had} had he come by it - save in the Barrows of Cardolan{.}?
Quote:
{[}The Witch-king and Khaműl{] perceive}perceived that Ring crossed Bridge...
"the Bridge"
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Old 02-01-2019, 10:18 AM   #9
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Thank you! It was certainly time-consuming!

1) Agreed.

2) Agreed for the inclusions. Apologies if I forgot to make a post about the other addition, it must have slipped my mind.

3) I think both have their merits. Text D supplies some backstory for Gollum which would be missing otherwise, so I am inclined to go with this one. Perhaps we can keep the fallout from the narrative in Text A like so:
Quote:
... once dwelt beside the banks of the Gladden.>
HR-SL-03.2 <moved from below
Now Sauron had never paid heed to the ‘Halflings,’ even if he had heard of them, and he did not yet know where their land lay.> {This}[Trusting Gollum] was thus a very small and natural error – but possibly the most important mistake that Sauron made in the whole affair. But for it, the Black Riders would have reached the Shire weeks sooner.>
This way we keep the story from Text D (which has more character weight for Gollum) while keeping the important bit from Text A: that Sauron's haste ended up costing him much needed time.

4) I do not see the need to remove it. It is true that this event is explained later, but its reference here is being used to provide in-universe proof for the idea that they did not like water, as well as to allay any calls that this point is not true since they went into the Ford. I think it is worth leaving in for these reasons.

5) Agreed.

6) We do not mention it. Should we remove the reference here or should we leave it in because (as Fin says) we should assume that our readers have read LotR?

7) He told them where the Shire is. I think you are right and this needs some editing, but the issue is that they realize that he did not make Gandalf confess, since he already knew the information. He should have shared it with Sauron, but he did not. So they see he is a traitor. How about this:
Quote:
The Witch-king thus learned that Saruman knew well all along where the Shire was, and knew much about it, which he could and should have told to HR-SL-13.1 Sauron{'s servants} if he had been a true ally.
8) 1418 is in the Shire reckoning. Tolkien often uses Shire reckoning to describe the events in LotR. I personally do not mind leaving it, since the difference is (as you noticed) somewhat jarring, and the change in dating systems is therefore implicitly clear.

9) Very well, agreed to remove.

10) His puzzlement might be a reaction he had from the first time Khamul told him, but it was driven home to him when he saw Frodo in person. I think we should leave it, as there are ways to explain it.

11) Thank you for catching these!

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Old 02-01-2019, 06:50 PM   #10
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1) I don't think that we must remove this. We have already hinted often to the fact that Saruman had started to desire the Ring and even revealed that he would go to open war against Rohan.

2) I agree to the addition, but I think we should edit it a bit differently:
Quote:
HR-SL-01.7b<Letter 214 Between 2463 {[}when Déagol the Stoor found the One Ring{, according to the Tale of Years]} and the beginning of Gandalf’s special enquiries ...
3) I agree to both the reordering and ArcusCalion's additional change.

4) As ArcusCalion, I think we should keep the footnote. It is a spoiler, but when we assume that our readers have some knowledge of The Hobbit and LotR they know this anyhow.

5) I agree in principal, but I think we should edit it differently:
Quote:
... The Orcs assailed the realm of Thranduil, with orders to recapture Gollum; and the Lord of Morgul was sent forth openly to battle against Gondor. These things were done towards the end of June 3018. HR-SL-06.5<Tale of Years {Around the same time,}When Thranduil {is}was attacked{ and} Gollum {escapes}escaped.> HR-SL-07<HR text B In the panic of the first assault, ...
6) We have not included Balin's attemp to re-enter Moria. But I think we should keep the footnote. Maybe we should search in the draft of LotR for some passage to be put in some earlier chapter. But than we would reveal only with this footnote that he failed.

7) I don't think any editing is needed. Saruman does pretend that his knowledge is freshly gained from Gandalf, but from his servant the Witch-King learns that Saruman should have answered him straight away out of his own knowledge. At that is what the text means (at least in our editing).

8) Yes, 1418 is Shire Reconing and I gree that this fact is clear enough, so tha we do not need to change or add a qualifire.

9) I agree not to include that sentence twice. But anyhow I could not finde HR-SL-16.1 neither in my working copy nor in the draft in the private forum. So please ArcusCalion, keep us informed what you add to your drafts if you like to discuss them here.

10) As Sauron I think the Witch-King is unable to understand the motives of his enemies. In Aragorn's place both had taken the Ring from Frodo by force as soon as they had been retired to the room of the Hobbits in the Prancing Pony. So that is what he would have expected, and that Aragorn did join Frodo and not take the Ring from him is what puzzled the Witch-King.

11) Some of these are not typos, but corrections of gramatical short commings of Tolkien's text of The Hunt for the Ring:

-'the' before 'dislike' is missing in the original text.

- Same here:
Quote:
{[}One{] takes}took the road ...
- '... {[}he{] is} was uneasily aware that many enemies {are}were watching him and though none {has}had yet come with power to challenge him. ...' the 'and is again in the original, so I agree it is not needed.

- '{[}He{] is} was waylaid by Dúnedain and driven away {does}did not reach {[}the Witch-king{]} until the next day.' Here again I agree to adding the 'and' though it is not in the original text.

- 'the Bridge and Bree': Agian this is a change of the original text due to gramatical reason.

- I as well agree to the addition of the '?' for gramatical reasons.

- 'the Bridge': Again the 'the' is not in the original text, but I agree to add it.

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Old 02-02-2019, 01:38 PM   #11
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1) OK, I'm fine with keeping it since we have heavily hinted at Saruman's betrayal.

2) I was debating whether to keep "when Deagol the Stoor found the One Ring". I agree to keeping it.

3) OK, I agree to ArcusCalion's change.

4) OK, I agree to keeping it, since it is in reference to the discussion about their dislike of water.

5) I agree to Fin's change, it makes the flow a bit smoother.

6) I think we should keep the footnote but include something about Balin's quest to retake Moria in an earlier chapter. I will see if I can find something suitable, where to put it, and post my suggestion in that thread.

7) Reading through the text again with your explanations, I understand it now. However, I still think it is slightly confusing/misleading without some slight editing. I think ArcusCalion's suggestion works, but how about:

Quote:
The Witch-king thus learned that Saruman knew well all along where the Shire was, and knew much about it, which he could and should have told to Sauron's servants HR-SL-13.1 earlier if he had been a true ally.
I think this makes it very clear. My main point of contention is that the text says "he could and should have told Saruon's servants" but that is exactly what he did. The problem, as Arcus explained, is that he should have told them earlier.

8) I personally think we should add "1418 in the Shire reckoning". It is jarring to change to the Shire reckoning all of a sudden, but to me it wasn't implicitly clear; it seemed like a typo/mistake. But if you both don't think it's necessary, I will acquiesce.

10) Yes, I agree it can be explained, so I agree to keep it as is.

11) I figured some of these weren't exactly "typos" but were due to Tolkien rapidly writing his ideas down.
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Old 02-05-2019, 12:13 PM   #12
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Okay, reading through our source texts for this chapter, I found two issues we have to deal with: the dates in or text are not in accourdance with the LotR, Appendix B: The Tale of the Years and the dates from The Hunt for the Ring are in themself defective since if the Nazgűl only appear after the attack on Osgiliath on the 20th of June Radagast has not enough time to be called by Saruman, coming to Isengard and searching for Gandalf before Midyear’s Day, which is only 12 days later. But as you will see LotR Companion does not only reveal these issues, it as well helps to solve them.
Here is what I would like to change:
HR-SL-03.1: Here for me the reference of the ‘he’ is not as clear as I would which for, therefore I would change to:
Quote:
HR-SL-03.1<moved from below {From}But from Gollum, even under pain, {he}Sauron could not get any clear account, …
HR-SL-03.15: Directly after HR-SL-03.1 I would add the following bit:
Quote:
... Thus it was that he dared to pretend that he believed that the land the Halflings was near to the places where he had once dwelt beside the banks of the Gladden.> HR-SL-03.15<LotR Companion; The Council of Elrond; 257 (I: 270). Nonetheless {S[auron]}/Sauron/’s chief fears were directed towards the Havens and Rivendell: he naturally suspected the Westlands.
>HR-SL-03.2<moved from below Now Sauron had never paid heed to the ‘Halflings,’ ...
Now we come to the point were we have to get the Nazgűl to move earlier:
Quote:
... Now Sauron learning of the capture of Gollum by the chiefs of his enemies was in great haste and fear. HR-SL-05<HR text B When and how this happened cannot of course be known for certain. Probably HR-SL-05.1<editorial addition based on LotR Companion; The Council of Elrond; 257 (I: 270). not >long after the event. ...
...
It is thus most likely that the first news of Gollum would be learned by the servants of Dol Guldur after Aragorn entered the Forest; for though the power of Dol Guldur was supposed to come to an end at the Old Forest Road, its spies were many in the wood. The news evidently did HR-SL-05.2{not }reach the Nazgűl commander of Dol Guldur{ for some time, and}, but he probably did not inform Barad-dűr until he had tried to learn more of Gollum's whereabouts. It would then no doubt be late in {April}March before Sauron heard that Gollum had been seen again, apparently captive in the hands of a Man. This might mean little. Neither Sauron nor any of his servants yet knew of Aragorn or who he was. But evidently later (since the lands of Thranduil would now be closely watched), possibly HR-SL-05.3{a month later}<LotR Companion; The Council of Elrond; 257 (I: 270). sometimes early in April>, Sauron heard the disquieting news that the Wise were aware of Gollum, and that Gandalf had passed into Thranduil's realm.>
...
Now few could withstand even one of these fell creatures, and (as Sauron deemed) none could withstand them when gathered together under their terrible captain, the Lord of Morgul. Yet this weakness they had for Sauron's present purpose: so great was the terror that went with them (even invisible and unclad) that their coming forth might soon be perceived and their mission be guessed by the Wise. HR-SL-07a<HR text B But Sauron did not underesteem the powers and vigilance of the Wise, and the Nazgűl were commanded to act as secretly as they could. Now at that time the Chieftain of the Ringwraiths dwelt in Minas Morgul with six companions, while the second to the Chief, Khaműl the Shadow of the East, abode in Dol Guldur as Sauron's lieutenant, with HR-SL-08{one other}two others as his {messenger}messengers. <Per Note 1 [Footnote to the text: {From notes counting in detail the movements of the Black Riders in the Shire it emerges that it}It was Khaműl who came to Hobbiton and spoke to Gaffer Gamgee, who followed the Hobbits along the road to Stock, and who narrowly missed them at the Bucklebury Ferry {(see p.360)}. The Rider who accompanied him, whom he summoned by cries on the ridge above Woodhall, and with whom he visited Farmer Maggot, was {"}one of his {companion}companions from Dol Guldur.{"} Of Khaműl it is said{ here} that he was the most ready of all the Nazgűl after the Black Captain himself, to perceive the presence of the Ring, but also the one whose power was most confused and diminished by daylight.]> HR-SL-06<HR text B {All}In addition, all except the Witch-king were apt to stray when alone by daylight; and all, again save the Witch-King, feared water, and were unwilling, except in dire need, to enter it or to cross streams unless dryshod by a bridge.[Footnote to the text: At the Ford of Bruinen only the Witch-king and two others, with the lure of the Ring straight before them, had dared to enter the river; the others were driven into it by Glorfindel and Aragorn.]>
HR-SL-06.1<LotR Companion; The Council of Elrond; 257 (I: 270). The Nazgűl {are}were ordered to steal over Anduin one by one and make enquiries. This {is}was ordered soon after {S[auron] learns}/Sauron/ learned that Gollum (who disappeared into the {D[ead]}/Dead/ Marshed) has been captured and is with Thranduil, and that Gandalf has visted that realm.{ *Say sometime early in April.}
At first the Nazgűl {investigate}investigated Anduin’s Vale,{ ...} but {can}could find no trace of the Ring or ‘Baggins’ {...}/therefore/ some {begin}began to investigate Rohan.{ ...} Sauron {is}was already in in communication with Saruman {[illegible]}/with the help of the/ Palantír; but {has}had not yet mastered him, Yet he {reads}had read enough of his mind to suspect {(a) }that he {covets}coveted the Ring for himself and {(b) } that he knows something about it. The Nazgűl {are}were therefore ordered to visit Saruman. Saruman {is v[ery]}was /very/ frightened at {S[auron]}/Sauron/’s suspicion of himself and his knowledge of the Ring. Though he {dislikes}disliked Gandalf intensely and {is v[ery]}was /very/ jealous of him, he {belives G[andalf]}belived /Gandalf/ knows something vital about the Ring because the Nazgűl {[?ask]}/knew/ of the Shire which {has}had always been a great concern of Gandalf, and because his agents {have}had discovered that it {is extraord[inarily]}was /extraorninarily/ closely guarded; /and /also that Gandalf {is}was now actually there since {12 }April the twelfth. {He [}Saruman{]} therefore {thinks}thought of geting {his [}Gandalf’s{]} help.{ ...}
The Nazgűl, then, came to Isengad towards early{?} June. Saruman was helped at this point {[}by{] g[ood]}/ good/ fortune. Radagast {becomes}became aware that the Nazgűl {are}were abroad in Anduin Vale spreading panic and searching for ‘Shire’. He {becomes v[ery]}became /very/ alarmed and {can}could think of nothing but to go and consult Saruman head of the order of Wizards. He {does}did so{ ...}not long after the visit of the Nazgűl to Isengard. Saruman {knows}knew that Radagast {is}was a kinsman of Gandalf’s and wholly trusted by him: he {uses}used him as messenger, and {sends}sent him off to the Shire. Radagst {leaves}left Isengard about June {15th} the fintenth.{ ...}
Soon after Sauron whishing to distract attention from the Nazgűl{ attacks Osgiliath. The Witch-King ... captures bridge and passes into Gondor. ...}>{So it was that Sauron} prepared two strokes – in which many saw the beginnings of the War of the Ring. They were made together. The Orcs assailed the realm of Thranduil, with orders to recapture Gollum; and the Lord of Morgul was sent forth openly to battle against Gondor. These things were done towards the end of June 3018. HR-SL-06.2<LotR Companion; The Council of Elrond; 257 (I: 270). Several of the Nazgűl {must remain}remained in {A[duin]}/Anduin/ Vale. One or more actually {direct}directed the attack on Tharanduil when Gollum {escapes}escaped. Sauron {thinks}thought it vital to have him captured again and/or killed.>
HR-SL-09b<HR text D It seems clear that pursued both by Elves and Orcs Gollum crossed the Anduin, probably by swimming, and so eluded the hunt of Sauron; but being still hunted by Elves, and not yet daring to pass near Lórien (only the lure of the Ring itself made him dare to do this afterwards), he hid himself in Moria. That was probably in the autumn of the year; after which all trace of him was lost.
What then happened to Gollum cannot of course be known for certain. He was peculiarly fitted to survive in such straits, though at cost of great misery; but he was in great peril of discovery by the servants of Sauron that lurked in Moria,[Footnote to the text: These were in fact not very numerous, it would seem; but sufficient to keep any intruders out, if not better armed or prepared than Balin's company, and not in great numbers.] especially since such bare necessity of food as he must have he could only get by thieving dangerously. No doubt he had intended to use Moria simply as a secret passage westward, his purpose being to find ‘Shire’ himself as quickly as he could; but he became lost, and it was a very long time before he found his way about. It thus seems probable that he had not long made his way towards the West-gate when the Nine Walkers arrived. He knew nothing, of course, about the action of the doors. To him they would seem huge and immovable; and though they had no lock or bar and opened outwards to a thrust, he did not discover that. In any case he was now far away from any source of food, for the Orcs were mostly in the East-end of Moria, and was become weak and desperate, so that even if he had known all about the doors he still could not have thrust them open.[Footnote to the text: According to the Dwarves this needed usually the thrust of two; only a very strong Dwarf could open them single-handed. Before the desertion of Moria doorwards were kept inside the West-gate and one at least was always there. In this way a single person (and so any intruder or person trying to escape) could not get out without permission.] It was thus a piece of singular good fortune for Gollum that the Nine Walkers arrived when they did.>
...
...
Therefore when Osgiliath was taken and the bridge broken Sauron stayed the assault, and the Nazgűl were ordered to begin the search for the Ring.>
HR-SL-07.2<LotR Companion; The Council of Elrond; 257 (I: 270).{2/3}/Tow or three/ Nazgűl still {prowl}prowled about Rohan and{ [?]}in Dunland, and up towards Eregion. They {are}were rather timid and ineffectual without {[}the{] W[itch]}/ Witch/-king. Also they {will}would not cross Greyflood into ‘enemy Elvish country’ without his leadership or express command.>
The Lord of Morgul therefore led his companions over Anduin, ...
...
At length they returned; but the summer was now far waned, and the wrath and fear of Sauron was mounting. When they came back to the Wold September had come; and there they met messengers from Barad-dűr conveying threats from their Master that filled even the Morgul-lord with dismay. For Sauron had now learned of the words of prophecy heard in Gondor, and the going forth of Boromir, of Saruman's deeds, and the capture of Gandalf. From these things he concluded indeed that neither Saruman nor any other of the Wise had possession yet of the Ring, but that Saruman at least knew where it might be hidden. HR-SL-07.3<LotR Companion; The Council of Elrond; 257 (I: 270). This {is}was enough to make {S[auron]}/Sauron/ suspect that the Wise {know}knew about the Ring, and that some tryst {is}was arranged in Rivendell. His suspicions of Saruman {are}were redoubled. He {has}had caught {S[aruman]}/Saruman/ again in the palantír.> Speed alone would now serve, and secrecy must be abandoned.
What is left are the slightly different dates in HR and LotR, Appendix B: In Appendix B Gandalf stayed one day shorter in Edoras:
Quote:
... He {says}said he {will}would speak of it again {next day. But on the next day 21 September,}later. Then Wormtongue {reappears}reappeared. It was really for him that Théoden waited (since he {has}had become enthralled by his counsel).
...
So on {22}the twenty-first of {[}September{]} Gandalf {leaves}left Edoras and {goes}went to the horse-sheds. ...
And last but not least HR-SL-13.1 were I understood the wish to make it clearer:
Quote:
... The Witch-king thus learned that Saruman knew well all along where the Shire was, and knew much about it, which he could and should have told to Sauron's servants HR-SL-13.1 striaght away if he had been a true ally. ...
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Old 02-05-2019, 02:57 PM   #13
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Oh good catch Fin! I have a few points.

First, I would make this slight change for smoothness of transition:
Quote:
... It was thus a piece of singular good fortune for Gollum that the Nine Walkers arrived when they did.>
HR-SL-07b <HR text B
Meanwhile, In the panic of the first assault on Osgiliath, when the Witch-king was allowed to reveal himself briefly in his full terror, the Nazgűl crossed the bridge at night and dispersed northwards.> Thus Sauron tested ....
Second, in this narrative you've made, the Nazgul search the Vale of Anduin twice. Is this what Tolkien intended? It makes no sense to me that they would search the Vale of Anduin twice, especially since they find nothing both times.

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Old 02-06-2019, 06:55 PM   #14
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Great catch, Fin! I think it's feasible the Nazgul would search the Anduin Vale twice because the area is rather large, and Sauron himself suspected it was where the Shire was based on information from Gollum. I found a few typos/grammatical issues.

A slight change to HR-SL-05.2 to make it sound smoother:
Quote:
The news evidently HR-SL-05.2b{did not reach}reached the Nazgűl commander of Dol Guldur
Some typos in this part (Marshed and visted):

Quote:
}/Sauron/ learned that Gollum (who disappeared into the {D[ead]}/Dead/ Marshed) has been captured and is with Thranduil, and that Gandalf has visted that realm.{ *Say sometime early in April.}
There is also a change of tense from past to present. Fixing these issues:

Quote:
}/Sauron/ learned that Gollum (who disappeared into the {D[ead]}/Dead/ Marshes) {has}had been captured and {is}was with Thranduil, and that Gandalf has visited that realm.{ *Say sometime early in April.}
In HR-SL-05.3:

Quote:
possibly HR-SL-05.3 {a month later} <LotR Companion; The Council of Elrond; 257 (I:270). sometimes early in April
I don't have a copy of the LotR Companion, but this should be "sometime".

I think there should be more punctuation to the sentence starting "At first the Nazgul...". I added a semicolon and a comma:

Quote:
At first the Nazgűl {investigate}investigated Anduin’s Vale,{ ...} but {can}could find no trace of the Ring or ‘Baggins’; {...}/therefore/, some {begin}began to investigate Rohan.{ ...}
"in" is repeated twice in the next sentence. "belived" should be "believed", "extraorninarily" should be "extraordinarily", "Isengad" should be "Isengard", "whishing" should be "wishing", "Tharanduil" should be "Thranduil" and "Tow" should be "two".

Other than that, I have one question:

Quote:
Though he {dislikes}disliked Gandalf intensely and {is v[ery]}was /very/ jealous of him, he {belives G[andalf]}believed /Gandalf/ {knows}knew something vital about the Ring because the Nazgűl {[?ask]}/knew/ of the Shire which {has}had always been a great concern of Gandalf, and because his agents {have}had discovered that it {is extraord[inarily]}was /extraordinarily/ closely guarded; /and /also that Gandalf {is}was now actually there since {12 }April the twelfth.
Saruman believes Gandalf knew something vital about the Ring because the Nazgul knew about the Shire. How does Saruman know what the Nazgul know? This is before the conversation between Saruman and the Nazgul, right?
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Old 02-07-2019, 02:40 PM   #15
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Dooble search of the Anduin Vale: Wenn we read the original Hunt for the Ring text the Vale is as well searched twice (but proberbly not by Nazgűl): The Witch-king decisded to search there even so he got the message from Khaműl that no trace of the Shire could be found. And in the new context we here from the Nazgűl proling in Rohan and Dunland that they are ‘rather timid and uneffective’ without their leader. So for me it is reasonable that the Witch-king repeated the search considering that he had no better information.
Now to the other remarks:
HR-SL-02.5b: Agreed.

Mashed and visted, “in”, “belived”, “extraorninarly”, “Isengad”, “whishing”, “Tharanduil” and “Tow”: Thanks for catching. These are real typos of mine for sure. And I also missed to do the time change in that sentence with the Mashed and visted. But must we not as well change ‘has visited’ to ‘had visted’?

HR-SL-05.3: Right, and so it is in the original text, as can be seen at the end of the sentence with Mashed and visted.

Punctuation in “At First the Nazgűl ...”: Agreed.

Saruman belives Gandalf knew something vital about the Ring: In the new version of the story springing from the fact that Radagast must have more time, Saruman is visted much earlier (before the attack on Osgiliath) by some Nazgűl after they did not find any trace of teh Shire in the Anduin Vale. Radagast is concerned about that search and reaches Isengard to the advantage of Saruman shortly after the Nazgűl had been there.
The Second visit is not mentioned in the text from LotR Companion; The Council of Elrond; 257 (I: 270)., but it also not denied. For me it seems clear that two or three Nazgűl visited Saruman and stayed in that area until the Wtich-king himself collected them all for another visit to Isengard. At the fist visit Sauron suspects only the motives of Saruman st the time of the second visit he is sure that Saruman is betraying him. But in both cases the Nazgűl involved did not have the full picture, so that Saruman could decive them.

Respectfully
Findegil
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Old 02-07-2019, 06:55 PM   #16
gandalf85
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Yes, it should be "had visited". I missed that one.

Regarding the Nazgul and Saruman, that makes more sense if there are two visits.
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