If Denethor hadn't committed suicide

[Faramir Jones]

There was an old topic dealing with the fall of Denethor:

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=5881

What is interesting is that Tolkien didn't intend at first for Denethor to commit suicide. He wrote an outline of what was to happen after the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, in which Éowyn died as well as Théoden:

By evening of 15th [in pencil > 14] in a bloodred sun victory is complete. All enemy is driven into or back over Anduin. Aragorn sets up his pavilion and standard outside gate, but will not enter city, yet. Denethor comes down to greet the victors. Théoden dies. He bids farewell to Gandalf, Aragorn, Éomer and Merry. Théoden and Éowyn laid for a time in the royal tombs.

Words of Aragorn and Denethor. Denethor will not yield Stewardship, yet: not until war is won or lost and all is made clear. He is cold and suspicious and ? mock-courteous. Aragorn grave and silent. But Denethor says that belike the Stewardship will run out anyway, since he seems like to lose both his sons. Faramir is sick of his wounds. If he dies then Gondor can take what new lord it likes. Aragorn says that he will not be 'taken', he will take, but asks to see Faramir. Faramir is brought out and Aragorn tends him all that night, and love springs between them. (History of Middle-earth: VIII. The War of the Ring, p. 360)

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

There was an old topic dealing with the fall of Denethor:

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=5881

What is interesting is that Tolkien didn't intend at first for Denethor to commit suicide. He wrote an outline of what was to happen after the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, in which Éowyn died as well as Théoden:

By evening of 15th [in pencil > 14] in a bloodred sun victory is complete. All enemy is driven into or back over Anduin. Aragorn sets up his pavilion and standard outside gate, but will not enter city, yet. Denethor comes down to greet the victors. Théoden dies. He bids farewell to Gandalf, Aragorn, Éomer and Merry. Théoden and Éowyn laid for a time in the royal tombs.

Words of Aragorn and Denethor. Denethor will not yield Stewardship, yet: not until war is won or lost and all is made clear. He is cold and suspicious and ? mock-courteous. Aragorn grave and silent. But Denethor says that belike the Stewardship will run out anyway, since he seems like to lose both his sons. Faramir is sick of his wounds. If he dies then Gondor can take what new lord it likes. Aragorn says that he will not be 'taken', he will take, but asks to see Faramir. Faramir is brought out and Aragorn tends him all that night, and love springs between them. (History of Middle-earth: VIII. The War of the Ring, p. 360)

Interesting topic.

It would have been very difficult for Denethor, after the destruction of the Ring, having Aragorn as the Captain of the Gondorian army. What's more, Faramir would have been on Aragorn's side. Maybe Prince Imrahil would have supported him too. I'm not saying it would have lead to civil war, because Aragorn would have been keen to avoid that, but the only obvious alternative would have been for Aragorn to return to Eriador. I think it's clear that Aragorn was keen to press his claim to the throne. Obviously Aragorn would have had Eomer's support too.

Maybe if it was obvious to Denethor that everybody else supported Aragorn then Denethor might have chosen suicide. He clearly didn't want to be Aragorn's Steward and I'm not sure the Aragorn would have wanted him either.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

Maybe if it was obvious to Denethor that everybody else supported Aragorn then Denethor might have chosen suicide. He clearly didn't want to be Aragorn's Steward and I'm not sure the Aragorn would have wanted him either.

Why such a drastic solution? Even from the brief outline above, I could very well see a possible outcome: Denethor simply resigning and, bitterly, retreating into hiding, an old man forgotten by everyone. Aragorn would have probably offered him at least a nice house in the mountains, maybe in Ithilien, but whether Denethor would have accepted or not is another thing. I imagine him a bit like Saruman, in the sense of a broken man whose world has been shaken and destroyed utterly and who does not know what to do, with the difference that Denethor would not really hate Aragorn, or be so full of hate, after all, it's been victory. He would be just old and sad and bitter, one of those to whom the end of an Age would seem like the end of the world they knew and the beginning of something they do not understand. He will pass into shadows and eventually just disappear, die maybe a few years later, somewhat forgotten. I can already see Aragorn at his funeral and Gandalf giving speech to the Hobbits about him on the way home, something like "he was a great man, but his time has passed and he was bitterly aware of that, yet his wisdom (etc...) after all it was his strength which held Mordor at bay for for half a century..." or something like that. Just try to imagine it, if I try, it's almost appearing in front of my eyes!

[Faramir Jones]

It would certainly have been difficult for Denethor, PrinceOfTheHalflings. While in the short term he would have had some leeway, as Aragorn would not press his claim to the kingship until the War was over, there would be a clash over whether to send a force to the Black Gate to distract Sauron from Frodo and Sam. I've a feeling that Denethor would tell Gandalf that he wasn't going to risk Gondorian lives to support his bright idea of sending a witless halfling (sorry, two witless halflings) into Mordor.

Assuming that the Ring is destroyed, without needing the help of the force sent in the original time line, then the end of the War would mean that Aragorn makes a formal claim to the kingship. Faramir would, as you said, be on Aragorn's side. (I'm assuming that he and Éowyn still meet up in the same way.) Éomer would also be a supporter, though I'm sure that Denethor would tell him to mind his own business, and not interfere in an 'internal Gondorian matter'.

Denethor would insist that all the legalities be followed, with a meeting of the Council of Gondor where Aragorn can properly make his claim. Things would be extremely difficult for Denethor if he is unable to persuade the Council to reject the claim. I think that most of the Council, including Prince Imrahil, would be in favour of Aragorn, not just because of the legitimacy of his candidacy, but because he had demonstrated his ability to defeat the enemies of Gondor, like Eärnil II.

While I agree completely, Prince, that 'He [Denethor] clearly didn't want to be Aragorn's Steward and I'm not sure that Aragorn would have wanted him either', I don't believe that Denethor would commit suicide for that reason. In LotR, he committed suicide because his mind had become unhinged after seeing the huge forces ranged against Gondor, and the seemingly mortal wound of his only surviving son. In this situation, Faramir would be alive and well, and Gondor victorious.

I agree with Legate of Amon Lanc here, that Denethor would probably resign the stewardship in favour of Faramir, then retire into private life, refusing all honours. He would die 'somewhat forgotten', but would certainly survive as a controversial figure in Gondor's history, perhaps referred to as 'Denethor the Unwilling'. As you said, Legate,

I can already see Aragorn at his funeral and Gandalf giving speech to the Hobbits about him on the way home, something like "he was a great man, but his time has passed and he was bitterly aware of that, yet his wisdom (etc...) after all it was his strength which held Mordor at bay for for half a century..." or something like that. Just try to imagine it, if I try, it's almost appearing in front of my eyes!

I can also forsee some rows in the future, with Elboron defending his grandfather's behaviour to his parents and to others.

[alatar]

What if, after Aragorn claims the Kingship and Faramir the Stewardship, Denethor has an epiphany, eats some humble pie, and decides that he's glad to be quit of these times, and lets go of his desires and goes off to wander the world (or visit the places his dead son last walked), now that he's more free of care.

Or, instead of committing suicide, he could go mad before the coronation and run off into the night, and people could leave food out for him, and Denethor could vanish into myth.

[Faramir Jones]

Tolkien did give an interesting view of Denethor and what he would have done in the event of victory, in notes he wrote in response to W. H. Auden's review of The Return of the King on 22nd January 1956:

Denethor was tained with mere politics: hence his failure, and his mistrust of Faramir. It had become for him a prime motive to preserve the polity of Gondor, as it was, against another potentate, who had made himself stronger and was to be feared and opposed for that reason rather then because he was ruthless and wicked. Denethor despised lesser men, and one may be sure did not distinguish between orcs and the allies of Mordor. If he had survived as victor, even without use of the Ring, he would have taken a long stride towards becoming himself a tyrant, and the terms and treatment he accorded to the deluded peoples of east and south would have been cruel and vengeful. He had become a 'political' leader: sc. Gondor against the rest.(Letters, Letter 183, p. 241.)

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by alatar

What if, after Aragorn claims the Kingship and Faramir the Stewardship, Denethor has an epiphany, eats some humble pie, and decides that he's glad to be quit of these times, and lets go of his desires and goes off to wander the world (or visit the places his dead son last walked), now that he's more free of care.

Or, instead of committing suicide, he could go mad before the coronation and run off into the night, and people could leave food out for him, and Denethor could vanish into myth.

Maybe the humble pie drove him to insanity. Someone always poisons the pie, I swear.

Seriously though I have to agree with alatar here that perhaps going off to travel Boromir's last road would be a possibility. Though I think it's more likely he'd just have to hand the Stewardship over to Faramir and resign himself to private life, probably disappearing entirely from the public's eye, brooding in his own anger/frustration.

Though think of all the politics and extra detail that could be needed in ROTK if Denethor had lived. Tying up the loose ends in a novel can be tedious enough, just imagine how the end would go if Tolkien left Denethor alive for Aragorn to fight (verbally not physically) after all that he'd already been though.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

imagine how the end would go if Tolkien left Denethor alive for Aragorn to fight (verbally not physically) after all that he'd already been though.

A sort of Scouring of Gondor?

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

A sort of Scouring of Gondor?

Not in so violent of terms though.

[Faramir Jones]

It's too bad that Faramir and Éoywn haven't married and had children yet, and that Denethor is not a 'modern' politician, otherwise he might be tempted to use his grandchildren.

There's an interesting list called the Evil Overlord List, which sets out the steps a person should take to set up a successful evil empire:

http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html

I had a good laugh imagining Denethor doing something like this:

142. If I have children and subsequently grandchildren, I will keep my three-year-old granddaughter near me at all times. When the hero enters to kill me, I will ask him to first explain to her why it is necessary to kill her beloved grandpa. When the hero launches into an explanation of morality way over her head, that will be her cue to pull the lever and send him into the pit of crocodiles. After all, small children like crocodiles almost as much as Evil Overlords and it's important to spend quality time with the grandkids.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

If Denethor had lived after the Battle of the Pelennor Fields and been introduced to Aragorn, he would have remembered him as Thorongil. And he might legitimately have asked Aragorn why, if his claim to the Kingship was genuine, he didn't press that claim when he served Denethor's father under the guise of Thorongil.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

If Denethor had lived after the Battle of the Pelennor Fields and been introduced to Aragorn, he would have remembered him as Thorongil. And he might legitimately have asked Aragorn why, if his claim to the Kingship was genuine, he didn't press that claim when he served Denethor's father under the guise of Thorongil.

Interesting. I think the knowledge that 'Thorongil' was truthfully Aragorn probably did belong to Denethor, and that would have played a part in his contesting Aragorn's claim, since Denethor had been jealous of Thorongil's fame and influence with Denethor's father, Ecthelion II.
What would Aragorn's response to Denethor pressing him on that have been? Perhaps something like 'The time was not yet right, Lord Steward. I myself was not ready for the burden, nor had I yet earned it'. I suspect though, that no fair words or deeds on Aragorn's part would have reconciled Denethor to the idea of relinquishing his power and watching Aragorn rule.

[alatar]

Why so negative on Denethor? He was a man at the end of his rope. His eldest son, whom maybe he had invested much hope, had failed and had fallen. His realm, whether he was King or Steward, was about to be swept away. He was estranged from his other son, the son that may have reminded him of the days spent with Finduilas, the son that he's sent to a needless (seemingly) death. Atop this, should some miracle occur and Gondor withstand the coming storm, a challenge to Denethor's leadership had appeared, and Denethor wasn't one to not get his way.

So he despairs at the end. What if, instead of suicide, someone, like Gandalf, knocks the Steward off of the pyre with a spear (hmm...now where have I seen that?) and he lives, though is mortally injured.

Assume the rest of the events play out as they do in RotK. Aragorn then could meet with Denethor, who, now that his realm as been saved, his son alive and installed as Steward, could die in peace after making some conciliatory remarks to Aragorn, showing that, at the end, he upholds the office of the Steward, giving up command as the King has returned. He asks for forgiveness, it's granted, and Denethor dies at peace, after murmuring some line about joining Finduilas and Boromir and Aragorn says something about the nobility of it all (or something).

Too much like Theoden's end?

Then how about Denethor, like his first son, decides to take Gandalf's advice and lead his people in the defense of Minas Tirith. He can then mutter a few lines and die after some duel with something interesting.

[Sarumian]

I totally agree with Alatar that Denethor's end could have happened on the walls of Minas Tirith or during a desperate attempt to stop Witch King from entering the city if he had followed Gandalf's advice.

It's all looks more complex if he had survived. It looks to me as if Denethor has fallen under the spell of the ring just by knowing about it as Sauman did. But with the end of Sauron and the ring Denethor could have recovered from the spell. In this case he might have changed his view of Aragorn, especially after Aragorn saves Faramir. So Denethor could have resigned and either spend his time with Faramir's family or travel along Boromir's pass to Rivendell, where he could have stayed for good learning the lore and compiling memories just like Bilbo.

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

It's all looks more complex if he had survived. It looks to me as if Denethor has fallen under the spell of the ring just by knowing about it as Sauman did. But with the end of Sauron and the ring Denethor could have recovered from the spell. In this case he might have changed his view of Aragorn, especially after Aragorn saves Faramir.

This is something I hadn't even considered. Look at Theoden. He was under Saruman's spell and distrusted Gandalf, but by the end of his life the spell had been lifted and he was prepared to do what he felt he had too. He also lost a son, his only son, yet when the poison in his life was removed he recovered. It's possible Denethor could have recovered as Theoden had. After all he despaired in part because that was what Sauron wanted.

If Denethor had survived, without Sauron to show ruin in the palantir anymore could it have been possible for him to recover and embrace Aragorn as his king?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

If Denethor had survived, without Sauron to show ruin in the palantir anymore could it have been possible for him to recover and embrace Aragorn as his king?

To me this seems a highly unlikely scenario. Denethor's antipathy towards Aragorn--"the last of a ragged house, long bereft of lordship and dignity"--goes deeper than just the poisoning of his mind by the Palantír. Indeed, it seems far more the case to me that while Denethor was somewhat solidified in this position by the use of the Palantír, which gave him a sense of doom and of being the only hope of the West--where was that useless Arnorian lordling, anyway, when needed?--his dislike of Aragorn goes deeper. The Appendices certainly suggest that Denethor had no love for Aragorn:

Originally Posted by Appendix A, I, iv

'There was dismay in the City at the departure of Thorongil, and to all men it seemed a great loss, unless it were to Denethor, son of Ecthelion, a man now ripe for the Stewardship, to which after four years he succeeded on the death of his father.

Clearly, Denethor saw his own position endangered by Thorongil then, and was "ripe" for ruling--which I would read to mean not only "ready," but, in this context, "eager." However, the passage has more to say:

Originally Posted by Appendix A, I, iv

Denether II was a proud man, tall, valiant, and more kingly than any man that had appeared in Gondor for many lives of men; and he was wise also, and far-sighted, and learned in lore. Indeed he was as like to Thorongil as to one of nearest kin, and yet was ever placed second to the stranger in the hears of men and the esteem of his father.

Ouch! Denethor, then, had personal reasons to dislike Aragorn--imagine being made second in your own father's affections? Let's finish quoting this passage, for the sake of completion.

Originally Posted by Appendix A, I, iv

At the time many though that Thornginl had departed before his rival became his master; though indeed Thorongil had never vied with Denethor, nor held himself higher than the servant of his father. And in one matter only were their counsels to the Steward at variance: Thorongil often warned Ecthelion not to put trust in Saruman the White in Isengard, but to welcome rather Gandalf the Grey. But the was little love between Denethor and Gandalf; and after the days of Ecthelion there was less welcome for the Grey Pilgrim in Minas Tirith. Therefore later, when all was made clear, many believed that Denethor, who was subtle in mind and looked further and deeper than other men of his day, had discovered who this stranger Thorongil in truth was, and suspected that he and Mithrandir designed to supplant him.

Personally, I take this passage to read that Denethor had figured out Aragorn's identity before he ever used the Palantír. And, really, how would the Palantír have confirmed this? It might have shown that Aragorn was a friend of Elves, a Ranger of the North, and high in their ranks... but the confirmation that he was the Heir of Isildur does not seem to me the sort of thing that the Palantír would have been a great help with.

Consequently, had Denethor survived the Siege of Gondor, I do not think he would ever have welcome Aragorn. Rather, it would only seem to him that Aragorn had, indeed, conspired with Gandalf to supplant him, and that the War of the Ring had been the seized upon pretext. Denethor's position is crystalline-clear: "I am the Steward of the House of Anárion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but from the line of Isildur."

Admittedly, these words are spoken in the fury of his last minutes, but they represent Denethor's convinced opinions on the issue, both personally and legally. Personally, he will not submit to Aragorn, defeated by his old rival in his old age. Additionally, he has convinced himself that Pelendur's precedent must still reject the Heir of Arvedui.

To me, it does seem likely that Denethor would not have mounted a resistance. In acknowledgement of the healing of Faramir and seeing the support of the people, Denethor may well (if alive) have stepped down... but I do not think (barring a miracle) it is sensible to think he could ever have accepted Aragorn as king. At best, he would have kept his mouth shut for the sake of a united Gondor and let Faramir's opinions guide those of his children, so that there would not be another "kinstrife" between the Heirs of Elessar and the Heirs of Denethor.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Come to think of it, Denethor was a hypocrite - he felt slighted by being second in his Father's affections behind Thorongil - then he subjected Faramir to the same treatment.

[Erendis]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Personally, I take this passage to read that Denethor had figured out Aragorn's identity before he ever used the Palantír. And, really, how would the Palantír have confirmed this? It might have shown that Aragorn was a friend of Elves, a Ranger of the North, and high in their ranks... but the confirmation that he was the Heir of Isildur does not seem to me the sort of thing that the Palantír would have been a great help with.

But Formedacil,you have mentionned all the clues to help Denethor come to this conclusion with certainty!Imagine it;apart from his obvious characteristics,his foe bears that strange ring,which might have seemed quite familiar to a person with Denethor's knowledge of history and eemm..interest to kingship.He comes from a former Dunedain realm,befriends the Elves,is Elrond's foster son and of high rank among the Rangers of the North(whose true ethnological identity I believe was no secret to him either) ...Too many coinsidences,don't you think?

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Erendis

But Formedacil,you have mentionned all the clues to help Denethor come to this conclusion with certainty!Imagine it;apart from his obvious characteristics,his foe bears that strange ring,which might have seemed quite familiar to a person with Denethor's knowledge of history and eemm..interest to kingship.He comes from a former Dunedain realm,befriends the Elves,is Elrond's foster son and of high rank among the Rangers of the North(whose true ethnological identity I believe was no secret to him either) ...Too many coinsidences,don't you think?

It does raise questions like

1. How much was known in Gondor about the Dunedain of the North?

2. Was there any curiosity about the Dunedain of the North in Gondor? Gondor was very much in need of allies at this time.

3. Did anyone other than Denethor guess Thorongil's true origin/identity? It must have been screamingly obvious that Thorongil was of Numenorean descent - so where else could he have come from, other than Umbar? Thorongil's existence certainly implied that there were others like him ... somewhere. Didn't anyone wonder where Thorongil went when he left? Didn't they ever wonder if he'd come back some day?

and most worringly:

4. If Thorongil was advising Ecthelion to be wary of Saruman and to trust instead in Gandalf, then that means that Aragorn had known for quite some time that Saruman was not to be trusted. Why then did Aragorn not advise Gandalf of his suspicions? Gandalf rode into a trap at Isengard because he still trusted Saruman.

Another thing - Thorongil had also served Thengel. Now, that was many years ago, but the people of Rohan seemed most surprised to see Aragorn show up, despite the fact that he had served Thengel. You'd think they'd be used to tall, mysterious guys from the North showing up! Especially when it's the same guy.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

I1. How much was known in Gondor about the Dunedain of the North?

To the vast majority of Gondorians at the time of the war of the Ring, probably not much. It would have been known to their historians that the last king, Arvedui, had died and Arnor so reduced in numbers that his son had not bothered to claim the sceptre.

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

2. Was there any curiosity about the Dunedain of the North in Gondor? Gondor was very much in need of allies at this time.

Certainly they needed help, but they apparently only saw the Rohirrim as allies who would come at their call. The Dúnedain of Arnor had been in the shadows so long they had been forgotten by nearly everyone outside Eriador. Even the Men of Bree, who themselves had once been subjects of the Kingdom of Arnor, didn't realise that the 'Rangers' whom they scorned were the last remnant of the Dúnedain of the North.

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

3. Did anyone other than Denethor guess Thorongil's true origin/identity? It must have been screamingly obvious that Thorongil was of Numenorean descent - so where else could he have come from, other than Umbar? Thorongil's existence certainly implied that there were others like him ... somewhere. Didn't anyone wonder where Thorongil went when he left? Didn't they ever wonder if he'd come back some day?

Aragorn was disguised in some way when he was 'Thorongil', so maybe his bloodline was not as obvious as that. Denethor's interest in him was due to jealousy, so he likely spent more time thinking about Thorongil than the average soldier in Minas Tirith. I'm sure they did wonder why he was leaving, but the last Thorongil was seen, 'his face was towards the Mountains of Shadow'. With the impression that he was going to Mordor, most probably wrote him off for dead.

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

4. If Thorongil was advising Ecthelion to be wary of Saruman and to trust instead in Gandalf, then that means that Aragorn had known for quite some time that Saruman was not to be trusted. Why then did Aragorn not advise Gandalf of his suspicions? Gandalf rode into a trap at Isengard because he still trusted Saruman.

I think Gandalf had shared some of his own concerns about Saruman with Aragorn, such as Saruman's reluctance to act against Dol Guldur. Aragorn completely trusted Gandalf, so it doesn't seem strange to me he would have said such things to Ecthelion, even with nothing more than Gandalf's vague misgivings driving the suspicion.

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

Another thing - Thorongil had also served Thengel. Now, that was many years ago, but the people of Rohan seemed most surprised to see Aragorn show up, despite the fact that he had served Thengel. You'd think they'd be used to tall, mysterious guys from the North showing up! Especially when it's the same guy.

Again, Aragorn was disguised as 'Thorongil'. And would they have necessarily known he was from the North? As you note, also a lot of time had passed. The Tale of Years says that from 2957 through 2980, 'as Thorongil [Aragorn] serves in disguise both Thengel of Rohan and Ecthelion II of Gondor'. Since Thorongil had appeared in Rohan first, there was a span of more than 38 years before Aragorn showed up in Rohan as himself. Éomer himself wasn't born until 2991. I don't think it's all that remarkable Aragorn wasn't recognised.

[Morwen]

^^ With respect to why no one in Rohan would recognise Aragorn, Appendix B notes that Aragorn as Thorongil served in disguise Thengel and Ecthelion between the years 2957 and 2980 of the Third Age. The next time that he returns to Rohan, at least in an open fashion, is 3019. That's a 39 year gap. Many of the Rohirrim who served with Thorongil have likely either died of old age or in battle. For those who are old enough to remember a person called Thorongil, it is unlikely that they would associate someone Aragorn who appears to be in his prime with another man they had known forty years and more ago. As far as they are concerned Thorongil should either be dead or an old old man.

With respect to the topic at hand I agree with Formendacil's reasoning. Denethor's line about Aragorn coming from a house long bereft of lordship and dignity makes it difficult for me to see him ever being reconciled to Aragorn as his king. He also makes a distinction between himself as a Steward of the House of Anarion and Aragorn who "(e)ven were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur." (The Pyre of Denethor, RotK) Clearly Denethor's position is the longstanding Gondorian one that Isildur and his heirs long ago gave up any right to the throne of Gondor. All of this combined with a personal animosity towards Thorongil/Aragorn makes reconciliation unlikely.

- Cross posted with Inziladun -

[Erendis]

I generally agree with both Inziladun and Morwen ,but still would like to make some adds.


Question 1.

Concerning the existence or not of Isildur's bloodline,for someone as well-educated as Denethor there must have been somes clues in the records of Ondoher's time about Aranarth,since he was the grand-son og the Gondorian king,afterall.

Question 3.

Concerning the term "disguise",I think it was not a physical one,because unless he could have his entire face hidden,indeed everything on Aragorn was not only crying"Numenorian blood",but also "Nobble Numenorian blood".I believe a shady and rumor-like story concerning his origins is more likely to be the disguise,more similar to the "undercover" term.Perhaps stories as ,for example,half Numenorian from the North(Dail maybe?),being spread around the soldiers with his consent,if not willingly by him,is a scenario.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Erendis

Concerning the term "disguise",I think it was not a physical one,because unless he could have his entire face hidden,indeed everything on Aragorn was not only crying"Numenorian blood",but also "Nobble Numenorian blood".I believe a shady and rumor-like story concerning his origins is more likely to be the disguise,more similar to the "undercover" term.Perhaps stories as ,for example,half Numenorian from the North(Dail maybe?),being spread around the soldiers with his consent,if not willingly by him,is a scenario.

Why not a physical disguise? Perhaps he grew a long beard.
Deceiving the Rohirrim would not have been so difficult anyway. If they recognised Thorongil as a Dúnadan, their assumtion would probably have been that he was of Gondor.
When dealing with the Men of Gondor, I think a physical disguise would have been a necessity, for the reasons you cite. If they knew Thorongil was not from Gondor, yet recognised in him Númenórean lineage, wouldn't that have been counter to Aragorn's purpose in going to Gondor in that manner? He wished to see the state of affairs in Rohan and Minas Tirith, and give the rulers in both places some good advice, once he gained their trust. He did not want to stir any controversy.

[Erendis]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Why not a physical disguise? Perhaps he grew a long beard.

No wonder why Arwen gave in after he left Gondor!
But why would he cause controversy by not hiding he was of Numenorian lineage?Whould he have been the first or last offspring of a mixed couple-although since the Kin-strife it might have been a taboo,so many years after that almost none would have been bothered-?Didn't Gondor have merchants?Travelers?How impossible scenario is a wanderer son wanting to serve his ancestors' lands?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Erendis

But why would he cause controversy by not hiding he was of Numenorian lineage?Whould he have been the first or last offspring of a mixed couple-although since the Kin-strife it might have been a taboo,so many years after that almost none would have been bothered-?Didn't Gondor have merchants?Travelers?How impossible scenario is a wanderer son have wants to serve his ancestors' lands?

It seems to me that all the remaining Dúnedain in Middle-earth were confined to two areas: Eriador and Gondor. If Aragorn had been known to have been of the Dúnedain, where could he reasonably have said that he came from, if not the North? If he claimed to be from 'outside' and was obviously Númeórean by looks, I think that would have raised some questions.
If he claimed anywhere in Gondor as his origin, that claim could have been investigated. I can well see Denethor 'checking Thorongil's references', perhaps with the hope of catching him in a lie.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Erendis

Question 1.

Concerning the existence or not of Isildur's bloodline,for someone as well-educated as Denethor there must have been some clues in the records of Ondoher's time about Aranarth,since he was the grand-son of the Gondorian king, after all.

About this... I don't think at all that it would have been unlikely at all for Denethor to have gone through the annals of Eärnil and Eärnur's day to know that Aranarth, son of Arvedui, still lived and headed the remnants of the Northern Dúnedain--it's just that with the waning and vanishing of those remnants in the north, why should anyone assume that an unbroken lineage remained? After all, your default assumption as a Gondorian might be that lineages naturally fail--it happened to them a few times. Additionally, the White Tree which continued to live all through the years of the Stewards after Mardil finally died in 2852, at the end of the Stewardship of Belecthor II. To the Gondorian mind at this time, there will never again be a king. Boromir--hopes of being the next Steward aside--should be taken as a typical Gondorian at the Council of Elrond:

Originally Posted by The Council of Elrond

'I was not sent to beg any boon, but to seek only the meanings of a riddle,' answered Boromir proudly. 'Yet we are hard pressed, and the Sword of Elendil would be a help beyond our hope--if such a thing could indeed return out of the shadows of the past.' He looked at Aragorn and there was doubt in his eyes.

--Emphasis mine.

Originally Posted by The Council of Elrond

'Isildur's Bane is found, you say,' said Boromir. 'I have seen a bright ring in the Halfling's hand; but Isildur perished ere this age of the world began, they say. How do the Wise know this ring is his? And how has it passed down the years, until it is brought hither by so strange a messenger?'

Boromir's question here refers to the Ring, but because of the mention of Isildur, it struck me as appropriate to quote, because he has exactly the same doubts about Aragorn and Isildur's lineage. It is only over the course of the next Book, until his death, that he comes to accept Aragorn fully. And why should he? It's been a millennium since Eärnur returned from the North--victorious over the Witch-King, a brief glimmer of hope in the mid-Third Age before he rode off to Minas Morgûl, never to be seen again. Even granting the longer Númenorean lifespan, which was waning much anyway in that millennium, that's still like someone coming forward today as the Heir of Edmund II Ironside--and out of the wild north, too, not out of a millennium of increasing records and technological certainty, but the complete opposite.

The fact that Denethor thought in the first place that Aragorn might be of Isildur's line and a kingly claimant, on those grounds, can be presented then as proof of his insight and wisdom, in my opinion.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If he claimed anywhere in Gondor as his origin, that claim could have been investigated. I can well see Denethor 'checking Thorongil's references', perhaps with the hope of catching him in a lie.

Perhaps Denethor did search Gondor...

...and that's why he was extra-suspicious of Thorongil's origins, when no one else seems to have been. And what could Denethor make of it, if Thorongil was from the North? That's no reason not to serve Gondor or be untrustworthy... but, if Denethor's suspicions were right, and Thorongil was making a play for the throne, revealing that he was Arnorian might be the first step to Thorongil revealing he was the Heir of Isildur. Far better, in such a case, to abet the idea that Thorongil was from an obscure corner of Gondor--Andrast, maybe--than to put the idea in people's heads that Thorongil could actually supplant him.

[Erendis]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If he claimed to be from 'outside' and was obviously Númeórean by looks, I think that would have raised some questions.

Would it?I think that the beloved Thorongilya was not the most open to questions around,especially when we see that if he wanted something to be kept secret,he wouldn't reveal it for any reason.In fact,not even Ecthelion,whom he respected so much,having a clear identity of his true origins would be a surprise to me.

And miraculously,for once again we do not regard to the main subgect of the thread!

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It seems to me that all the remaining Dúnedain in Middle-earth were confined to two areas: Eriador and Gondor. If Aragorn had been known to have been of the Dúnedain, where could he reasonably have said that he came from, if not the North? If he claimed to be from 'outside' and was obviously Númeórean by looks, I think that would have raised some questions.
If he claimed anywhere in Gondor as his origin, that claim could have been investigated. I can well see Denethor 'checking Thorongil's references', perhaps with the hope of catching him in a lie.

Denethor certainly had suspicious about Thorongil and he must have wondered where he came from. Since I raised the question about Aragorn's "obviously Numenorean appearance" I will add that I don't just mean Aragorn's hair, skin or eye colour but also his height. He was extremely tall.

One reason why Aragorn can't have had much of a physical disguise is that his resemblance to Denethor was noted at the time. Given that Aragorn played the part of Thorongil for 23 years, it's hard to think that he could have maintained a physical disguise for that long! I think the "disguise" just refers to his assumed name and background.

I can understand why a young fellow like Eomer doesn't recognise Aragorn, since he wasn't born in the time of "Thorongil". Even Theoden was fairly young at the time but in Gondor some people were relatively long-lived.

Outside of Minas Tirith, Gondor was fairly sparsely populated. Aside from Pelagir and Dol Amroth there weren't many major 'population centres'. Aragorn wasn't blonde-haired or blue-eyed so he would have had a hard time passing himself off as one of the Rohirrim! Clearly he was Numenorean - so not from Rohan or Laketown etc. Denethor (and for that matter Ecthelion) must have had a pretty good idea of where Thorongil was from. Thorongil's championing of Gandalf might have been another indicator, since Gandalf spent most of his time in the North. Perhaps some rumours of the Northern Dunedain were heard in Gondor, but Aragorn must have been the first proof of their existence, unless one of his more recent ancestors had also spent time in Gondor.

As for the original question - I suspect that Aragorn would have been very sensitive to Denethor's feelings. Perhaps he might have come up with some way for Denethor to save face? Maybe Denethor would have accepted some role like "Prince of Ithilien". Aragorn would have no doubt tried as hard as possible for Denethor to retain his dignity and usefulness. Otherwise Denethor would just have become a thorn in Aragorn's side - a bitter old man with little to live for since he would regard King Elessar as an upstart who had robbed the rightful family of their legacy.

[Formendacil]

One thing that is worth noting is that as late at the Fell Winter in 2911-12, a mere 19 years before Aragorn's birth, there continued to be a settlement at Tharbad. Unlike the general population of the surviving Arnorian Rangers, this settlement on the Greenway to Bree would have been more publicly known, and any traders between there and Rohan and Gondor would have passed that way.

Given that Tharbad was almost certainly a Númenorean settlement, or at least mixed including those of Númenorean blood--possibly also those of Bree/Dunlendish ethnicity, it isn't that strange from a Rohirric or Gondorian perspective to encounter Thorongil as a Númenorean stranger out of the North. Possibly, they might think, he would be ignorant of his ancestral origins, and unlikely to be as "pure blooded" as a Gondorian (remember that business with Eldacar? He looked and acted like a pure Númenorean, but that wasn't good enough for Gondor--he was halfblood and they knew it)--but hardly all that odd. A rarity, to be sure, but not unexpected.

I'm coming to the conclusion that it would not be strange at all from the Gondorian perspective to learn there were some descendants with Númenorean blood in the North. This was not Aragorn's secret. The secret, rather, was that the Line of Isildur persisted, and that the legal structure of Arnor had not ended in the aftermath of Arvedui, but persisted in the paramilitary Rangers and their unknown guard on Bree and the Shire (and their own settlements in the Angle, and, earlier, Tharbad). Aragorn's secret was not that he was Arnorian, but that there was still an Arnor and that he was its chieftain.

[Erendis]

I have completely forgotten Tharbant!Thanks for reminding me,Formedacil!
When I will write a fanfiction on Thorongil,I will enclude that theory too!

[Morwen]

The word "disguise" does seem to indicate some change in physical appearance. To merely change your name and give someone a phony backstory about yourself seems to me the actions of some who wishes to be incognito not "in disguise". The disguise need not be that radical. It does not mean that Aragorn had to cease to look like someone with Numenorean blood. The idea could simply be to alter his appearance enough so that on the off chance that someone from Gondor or farther afield had ever seen Aragorn they would not think that Thorongil was the same person.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Morwen

The word "disguise" does seem to indicate some change in physical appearance. To merely change your name and give someone a phony backstory about yourself seems to me the actions of some who wishes to be incognito not "in disguise". The disguise need not be that radical. It does not mean that Aragorn had to cease to look like someone with Numenorean blood. The idea could simply be to alter his appearance enough so that on the off chance that someone from Gondor or farther afield had ever seen Aragorn they would not think that Thorongil was the same person.

Aragorn does this all the time.

When Frodo first meets him in Bree, he is merely "Strider"--tall and lanky, foul rather than fair, and certainly no King. However, this is more than a mere question of a change of clothes in Rivendell--that is noted on at the end of "Many Meetings" but there is nothing else--he's still Strider, just in nicer clothes. When he's back in his regular clothes for the Council of Elrond, Tolkien makes a point of mentioning that Boromir looks him over doubtfully--little does he resemble the graven images of Elendil and Isildur in the Hall of the Kings.

However... if we jump forward to the approach of the Argonath:

Originally Posted by The Great River

'Fear not!' said a strange voice behind him. Frodo turned and saw Strider, and yet not Strider; for the weatherworn Ranger was no longer there. In the stern sat Aragorn son of Arathorn, proud and erect, guiding the boat with skilful strokes; his hood was cast back, and his dark hair was blowing in the wind, a light was in his eyes: a king returning from exile to his own land.

No change of clothes, no change of circumstances... but a complete and total change from Strider to Aragorn. My memory wants to say there's a few more instances of similar transformations--perhaps in Rohan somewhere and certainly "The hands of a king are the hands of a healer" but this is the only quote I'm going to cite. I don't think another can top it.

I also think I hardly need to explain what I'm saying--Aragorn's "disguise" is to hide his kingliness. He's still clearly a Ranger, a Númenorean--the Dúnadan, as Elrond's people call him--but as Aragorn son of Arathorn he is something unique.

Now... exactly how that works, I don't claim to know.

[Morwen]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Aragorn does this all the time.

When Frodo first meets him in Bree, he is merely "Strider"--tall and lanky, foul rather than fair, and certainly no King. However, this is more than a mere question of a change of clothes in Rivendell--that is noted on at the end of "Many Meetings" but there is nothing else--he's still Strider, just in nicer clothes. When he's back in his regular clothes for the Council of Elrond, Tolkien makes a point of mentioning that Boromir looks him over doubtfully--little does he resemble the graven images of Elendil and Isildur in the Hall of the Kings.

However... if we jump forward to the approach of the Argonath:



No change of clothes, no change of circumstances... but a complete and total change from Strider to Aragorn. My memory wants to say there's a few more instances of similar transformations--perhaps in Rohan somewhere and certainly "The hands of a king are the hands of a healer" but this is the only quote I'm going to cite. I don't think another can top it.

I also think I hardly need to explain what I'm saying--Aragorn's "disguise" is to hide his kingliness. He's still clearly a Ranger, a Númenorean--the Dúnadan, as Elrond's people call him--but as Aragorn son of Arathorn he is something unique.

Now... exactly how that works, I don't claim to know.

I agree with you that Aragorn seems to have an ability to keep the essence (?) of who he is under wraps. He can seem unassuming enough but there is "a light in his eyes that when they were kindled few could endure".(Appendix A (v), Tale of Aragorn and Arwen)

There is also a "clothes make the man" transformation in Appendix A in the tale of Arwen and Aragorn.

"... and Galadriel bade him cast aside his wayworn raiment, and she clothed him in silver and white, with a cloak of elven grey and a bright gem on his brow. Then more than any kind of Men he appeared, and seemed rather an Elf-lord from the Isles of the West."

About 2 or 3 paragraphs before this description we are told this about Aragorn's appearance:

"His ways were hard and long, and he became somewhat grim to look upon, unless he chanced to smile; and yet he seemed to Men worthy of honour, as a king that is in exile, when he did not hide his true shape. For he went in many guises, and won renown under many names." (emphasis mine)

At certain points it seems he did do more that simply hide his kingliness. I suppose more drastic alterations to his appearances might be necessary when venturing into places where the population did not look like him.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morwen

At certain points it seems he did do more that simply hide his kingliness. I suppose more drastic alterations to his appearances might be necessary when venturing into places where the population did not look like him.

Precisely. Aragorn's forays into Rhûn and the Harad come to mind. In those places, anyone pegged as a 'Westerner' would probably have been killed.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Precisely. Aragorn's forays into Rhûn and the Harad come to mind. In those places, anyone pegged as a 'Westerner' would probably have been killed.

Yes... but would Aragorn necessarily have been pegged as a Westerner? Black Númenoreans settled the coasts of Middle-earth everywhere but the northwest. True, they do not seem to have had kingdoms in the sense of Gondor or Arnor--Umbar is the closest thing we have--but they seem to have been prominent in the service of Sauron from Herumor and Fuinil in the days of the Last Alliance down through the Mouth during the War of the Ring. To me it seems possible that Aragorn, if looking scruffy and unkingly, may well have appeared a stranger, but not necessarily a Westerner. And where wasn't he a stranger--he was a stranger in Rohan, Gondor, and Bree? That this'd be his modus operandi in Rhûn and Harad is not a surprise...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Yes... but would Aragorn necessarily have been pegged as a Westerner? Black Númenoreans settled the coasts of Middle-earth everywhere but the northwest. True, they do not seem to have had kingdoms in the sense of Gondor or Arnor--Umbar is the closest thing we have--but they seem to have been prominent in the service of Sauron from Herumor and Fuinil in the days of the Last Alliance down through the Mouth during the War of the Ring. To me it seems possible that Aragorn, if looking scruffy and unkingly, may well have appeared a stranger, but not necessarily a Westerner. And where wasn't he a stranger--he was a stranger in Rohan, Gondor, and Bree? That this'd be his modus operandi in Rhûn and Harad is not a surprise...

Though there's nothing concrete to suggest this, whatever Black Númenóreans remained by the time of the War of the Ring were, it seems to me, likely to reside in Mordor. The Mouth did, and had done so for most of his life, it seems.
I think the Easterlings had a different physical appearance from the Men of the West, and certainly the Haradrim did. They were much more dark-skinned and swarthy.
At any rate, there would probably have been cultural and regional norms regarding appearance that Aragorn would have had to have observed so as not to stand out.

[Erendis]

Wasn't it Sam who said the Southerlings are black with white tongues or something like that?

Yes,yes,I can see that picture!Aragorn with black leather's dye on his face and a white tongue!
If only cameras and tabloids were invented in Middle-Earth,Denethor would have ensured stewardship for at least another Age.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

You have to remember that when JRRT wrote LOTR he could get away with many references, like "swarthy men" and "swertings" that would be deemed racist today.

[Erendis]

I never wished to say or imply anything racistic about black skin-in fact,since my people are generally rather tanned,I am rather fond to it.

The fun part is the whole image of the fake colour and the I-have-no-idea-who-he-could-make-it white tongue.