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Old 09-20-2007, 07:12 AM   #1
Sauron the White
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Greatest sin of Peter Jackson

Of late I have been debating with some here in various threads concerning the films and the books. One thing kept coming up in posts from people who tend to not say very good things about the films: and that is that Peter Jackson had the gall to think he could do it beter and make improvements over the book. For the last month I have been laboring under the belief that Purists felt this was Jacksons greatest transgression.

I was mistaken.

The greatest transgression of Peter Jackson in the eyes of book purists is a far more sinister one. He was successful. His version of LOTR has supplanted the book version in the minds of millions of people around the world.

Consider this: In 1978 Ralph Bakshi made a cartoon film based on about half of the LOTR. It did not do very well, faded from the scene and failed to spawn any real buzz in LOTR. After the Bakshi film vanished from the theaters, swept away like so much popcorn under the theater seats, the books were still there like 200 foot letters sculpted into the side of a mountain. Forgive me for mixing my metaphors.

The same could also be said for the Rankin-Bass attempts at THE HOBBIT and the RETURN OF THE KING both released direct to TV.

But look at the Jackson adaptions and what they have achieved. Each film cracked the All Time Worldwide Box Office charts in the top five of all time. As newer films have been released, FOTR, has dropped out of the top ten, but it was there for a time. ROTK is still #2 taking in over a billion dollars. In fact, all three films have grossed an astounding $4 billion dollars in both film receipts an other rights an sales. Thats $4 billion dollars.

The three films were very well reviewed by professional critics, something which the normal crowd pleasing blockbuster does not garner. And then there were the many industry awards capped by the eleven for eleven including Best Film for ROTK.

And unlike the Bakshi films or the two TV attempts, they still live and are with us in the minds of the hundreds of millions who have seen them. And I have not even delved into the area of all the merchandise that was spun off from the films keeping those characters alive on shelves around the world.

Lets face it folks - more people have seen the film version of LOTR than have read the books. And that is the great sin of Peter Jackson. He was so successful that purists despise it that LOTR is now thought of as a film in the minds of hundreds of millions of people all over the world.
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Old 09-20-2007, 07:56 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Sauron the White View Post
Lets face it folks - more people have seen the film version of LOTR than have read the books. And that is the great sin of Peter Jackson. He was so successful that purists despise it that LOTR is now thought of as a film in the minds of hundreds of millions of people all over the world.
Yes, yes, yes, I'm sure PJ's cheque is in the post for you, along with the signed photo & stuff....

Howsumever...I don't 'dispise' Jackson. I admire the effort & dedication of PJ & all who worked on the movies. Unfortunately, Jackson seems either not to have understood Tolkien's work, or not to have cared. The movies are typical Hollywood fare - action adventure movies, nice looking but overblown. I sat through RotK on Sunday, just I couldn't find anything else to watch & it passed a few hours & I didn't throw anything at the screen. They're ok - for what they are. There's no depth, they don't challenge the viewer, but I don't expect that from Hollywood anyway.

I'm sure that 'Lord of the Rings' is now thought of as a film rather than a book by millions of people. I daresay there are some people out there who think its a radio series, some who think its a poster, some who think its an action figure franchise (& for all I know some who think its the name of the current Emperor of planet Tharg). Though what that has to do with the price of fish I don't know.

What I do know is that some readers genuinely dislike the movies (I'd perhaps genuinely dislike them myself, if I could summon up enough energy to feel anything for them) & all the arguments about how successful PJ was, & how much money the movies made or how much he 'improved' on the original are going to make exactly no difference to them.

If you really think that the only reason readers don't like the movies is jealousy then I can only think that you haven't actaully read what those who dislike them have written.
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Old 09-20-2007, 08:13 AM   #3
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davem ... Jackson has never sent me so much as a penny, nor any autographed pictures or any memorabillia of any kind. Although I really would like the scale model of Grond if he is so inclined.
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Old 09-20-2007, 08:42 AM   #4
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I would say it was a combination of the two, Jackson's success and his "improvements".

Sure, if the movie trilogy would have been without success, the Purists wouldn't have cared. However, of course you're right, the movie version now has supplanted the book version in the minds of many, and there are even more who have seen the movies but never bothered to pick up the books. But I think all this would be much less of an issue to the Purists if the version people take from Jackson would be closer to the original - especially in spirit, not so much in plot and character details. I doubt they would complain had a sufficiently accurate version replaced the image of people. I mean, why should they? It would only have made their favourite story more popular. That this had been accomplished through a different (and less deep) medium than written word is maybe sad, but one can't blame Jackson for that.

But, since the spirit is quite different in many parts, all those people now live with a more or less wrong impression of the Lord of the Rings. It's not exactly the Purists' favourite story which gained popularity (though it did, too, since there are plenty of people who did pick up the Books after seeing the films). I can easily understand how some Tolkien Purists don't exactly enjoy seeing this new image, not simply because it is popular, but because it is popular and wrong.
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Old 09-20-2007, 09:11 AM   #5
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I'm going to disagree - didn't see that coming, did ya? Peter Jackson's work was popular, but so were bell-bottom jeans and the BeeGees. You can buy the trilogy and movie items at discount. PJ did a wonderful job, but the movies, with some exceptions, don't have the same sticking power as do the books - or at least that's what the current data indicates (and I'm making that data up from whole cloth). Will you be watching them in 35 years (assuming the obvious)? Will you do this yearly as I do with the books? I haven't watched the movies since I wrote the last post for the SbS, but that's because I was going through the movies for 18 months on a weekly basis, and so need a little break. I did watch them on TV when they were shown, but then again, the movies' competition wasn't stiff.

Animal House was a very popular movie (won the People's Choice Award in 1979) for its time and has become part of our (American) culture, yet there are those with whom I work (younger) who've never seen it, and have no idea what my "Faber College" T-shirt even refers to (note that the shirt was so on sale - when did the movie get re-released? - that I could have bought more expensive paper towels).

Again, PJ did well, but let's let a little time for the body to cool before comparing its popularity with the books.
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Old 09-20-2007, 09:27 AM   #6
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Alatar - I do not disagree with the main points you make here. My claim is NOT that the films will last forever and forever supplant the books. I do not do very well predicting the future since the Entrails R US store went out of business. My point is that now, right here in the present, things given what they are today, there is much resentment among Purists that the films have, for now, supplanted the books in the minds of hundreds of millions of people. Jackson was too successful for them.

Does anbody really care about what was correct or wrong about the Bakshi adaption? You just do not hear much about that? And does anybody really care about the Rankin-Bass TV adaptions if THE HOBBIT and ROTK? But mention the movies here - and on many other sites - and you get a real debate and temperatures can get a bit heated.

Yes, lots of time has passed since the first three adaptions and they are out of sight and out of mind. I admit that. But they also were not very successful and did not threaten to supplant the books in the public mind. And I do think that is a factor -- heck, its my thesis.

I truly believe that if the 3 Jackson adaptions had merely been moderate successes making little more money back than their cost, we would not be talking about it several years later. But we are.
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Old 09-20-2007, 09:37 AM   #7
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I truly believe that if the 3 Jackson adaptions had merely been moderate successes making little more money back than their cost, we would not be talking about it several years later. But we are.
And that's a good thing. The books are old and they are classics, and many younger people are put off by the idea of reading something like that. The films coming out were a blessing to things Tolkien-based, especially to sites like this, as there was a sudden influx of new members who had either just been introduced to Tolkien or who had just had their old interest renewed.

To say that Purists were jealous is an odd statement to make though. How can you be jealous of the films when you sit with the book in your hands and know you have the better version? The films were not bad, I greatly enjoyed them (aside from a few glaring annoyances), especially FotR which I felt captured more of the magic of the books than the other two films did.

The acceptance of those who had only ever seen the films by those who had been reading the books for however many years shows that there isn't jealousy. Instead it gives the old-timers an opportunity to introduce newbies to the origins of these films they love.
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Old 09-20-2007, 09:42 AM   #8
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I don't hate PJ's work with LoTR. I rather enjoy it. But what I can't stand is calling it his story. It's his vision of the a story but it is not his original idea nor is it his original story.

Ralph Bakshi's version is laughable at best. It made me want to burn my eyes out. As Pheobe said on Friends, my eyes, my eyes.
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Old 09-20-2007, 09:46 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Sauron the White View Post
Alatar - I do not disagree with the main points you make here. My claim is NOT that the films will last forever and forever supplant the books. I do not do very well predicting the future since the Entrails R US store went out of business. My point is that now, right here in the present, things given what they are today, there is much resentment among Purists that the films have, for now, supplanted the books in the minds of hundreds of millions of people. Jackson was too successful for them.
And I understand what you're trying to say, but I don't think that you have data to back up the hypothesis that (as I see it): Tolkien fanatics miffed by popularity of PJ films.

Do we even have poll results, and if so, are those exclusive to the Downs, which by chance or design may contain a higher than normal concentration of rabid anti-movie-ites?

Quote:
Does anbody really care about what was correct or wrong about the Bakshi adaption? You just do not hear much about that? And does anybody really care about the Rankin-Bass TV adaptions if THE HOBBIT and ROTK? But mention the movies here - and on many other sites - and you get a real debate and temperatures can get a bit heated.
You see B (and a whole lot of that in recent weeks) and assume A. How many persons have ready access to the Bakshi/R-B films or have even watched them? When was the last time that they were on TV? One can discuss them here, but that would require the much pulling of teeth as, from experience, not many kept up with the dissection of the PJ EE DVDs, which are available (at discount) and are on free TV. And yet...

Quote:
Yes, lots of time has passed since the first three adaptions and they are out of sight and out of mind. I admit that. But they also were not very successful and did not threaten to supplant the books in the public mind. And I do think that is a factor -- heck, its my thesis.
Different world back then, back when the best you could do was VHS, if that. Now, the DVDs are available shortly after the movie is released so you can view it multiple times and pick out every little gaff and post it on YouTube.

Quote:
I truly believe that if the 3 Jackson adaptions had merely been moderate successes making little more money back than their cost, we would not be talking about it several years later. But we are.
You don't know the depths of boredom that I will do anything to keep from drowning in.

P.S. Note that there already is a book vs movie thread, but I'm not sure if it's for PJ's or other's works.
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Old 09-20-2007, 10:09 AM   #10
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from alatar

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And I understand what you're trying to say, but I don't think that you have data to back up the hypothesis that (as I see it): Tolkien fanatics miffed by popularity of PJ films.
No data, no surveys, no polls, not even talk radio chatter. This is based on my experience on other JRRT related sites plus my few months here. I have not heard anyone saying "I RESENT THOSE BLANKETY BLANK MOVIES". But I do think the attitude and spirit is there in some. It couched in lots of other far more subtle and defendable verbage - but its still there.

from Kath

Quote:
To say that Purists were jealous is an odd statement to make though. How can you be jealous of the films when you sit with the book in your hands and know you have the better version?
In my opening post I did not use the term jealous. I do not think this is the emotion that the purists feel. My term would be resentment. Macalaure posted some interesting thoughts saying it is as much the purist belief that PJ got it wrong as much as the popularity. And I can understand that. I don't believe that the book purists are jealous of the films and want the same level of success right now for the books. No - they are not jealous in that they are coveting the success of the films.

and from Quempel

Quote:
Ralph Bakshi's version is laughable at best. It made me want to burn my eyes out. As Pheobe said on Friends, my eyes, my eyes.
In total agreement. It took me a good dozen years to get rid of the nagging idea that Boromir was a viking and Aragorn some lost member of a tribe of Native Americans.
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Old 09-20-2007, 10:24 AM   #11
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It's a frightening, frightening thing for True Believers to feel that there are alternate creeds out there gathering more souls and even reeling in apostates than the One, er, Three Good Books.

You know, this summer, I was talking with an eleven year old boy about Harry Potter. He was all excited after the latest movie release and last book release. So I asked him what he thought of the last book. And he said he didn't read it and won't read it as the books are too full of details and description and stuff and he can't wait to see the next movies.

To be fair to him, he's a second language English speaker.

But it gave me an insight into what PJ has done. He's made Middle-earth an experience even for those who don't or can't read English. Middle-earth was unreachable to people who don't know English (or who were dependent upon the frailties of translation.) But PJ has taken Middle-earth out of Tolkien's language-based concept and repatriated it for a completely different kind of territory, one not mapped by language or imagination so much as by sensory experience.

I think this is what might bug the Tolkians, that the word is now gone from the face of Middle earth.

Speaking entirely as someone who has not recited the Creed of Tolkien but who doesn't worship at the shrine of Jackson either.
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Old 09-20-2007, 10:35 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Sauron the White View Post
No data, no surveys, no polls, not even talk radio chatter. This is based on my experience on other JRRT related sites plus my few months here. I have not heard anyone saying "I RESENT THOSE BLANKETY BLANK MOVIES". But I do think the attitude and spirit is there in some. It couched in lots of other far more subtle and defendable verbage - but its still there.
I do not mean this to be mean, but you are the observer, and you may have some bias, or more probable , are the causal agent. And note that I doubt even my own eyes, and so I'm definitely not saying anything negative about you or that your observations are incorrect. I just know how wrong I can be (with the exception of anything negative I say about the Jackson films), and so...

Quote:
In total agreement. It took me a good dozen years to get rid of the nagging idea that Boromir was a viking and Aragorn some lost member of a tribe of Native Americans.
It's not the images, it's the soundtrack! I've considered doing brain surgery on myself just to remove "Where there's a whip, there's a way!" And those other songs...ugh!
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Old 09-20-2007, 02:37 PM   #13
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Does anbody really care about what was correct or wrong about the Bakshi adaption? You just do not hear much about that? And does anybody really care about the Rankin-Bass TV adaptions if THE HOBBIT and ROTK? But mention the movies here - and on many other sites - and you get a real debate and temperatures can get a bit heated.

.
I remember quite a bit of discussion in the Tolkien Society when the Bakshi movie came out, but that was a long time ago. I re-watched some of it recently & given the time & limitations I don't think it was too bad an effort. I don't think its worse than the PJ movies - if Bakshi had had the same budget & technology to hand I suspect his version would have been much much superior. Bakshi had to resort to animation & rotoscoping because that was all that was available. Its nearly thirty years since Bakshi's version appeared, & none of us can say whether PJ's version will even be remembered thirty years from now.

It was also successful enough to help inspire the BBC to adapt LotR for radio (a couple of the same actors were involved) - & that version is far & away the best adaptation that there has ever been - Jackson's version doesn't even come close. I challenge anyone to set aside a day (its 13 hours long) & listen to the Sibley/Bakewell LotR & not be profoundly moved. Starting out in the Shire in the morning & following the characters through the day & ending back at Bag End late at night is an amazing experience. I've done the same thing with the extended editions of the movies once & at the end just felt glad I'd managed to get through it.

And that's the point I'd emphasise - it is possible to produce a brilliant, beautiful, powerful & faithful adaptation of LotR. Its just that PJ didn't manage to do it, whereas Sibley, Bakewell & the BBC did.
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Old 09-20-2007, 03:57 PM   #14
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davem ... I have never heard the BBC broadcasts but will take up your challenge. I have ordered it through Amazon for $45.00 US.

I must take issue with the statement that the Bakshi film is no worse than the Jackson films. The Bakshi version was handicapped by the lack of the budget that Jackson had - so I concede that to you. But I found fault not with what he was unable to do - but what he did do. Boromir as a viking!!!!! Aragorn looking like some American Indian. The orcs were pretty terrible and the entire rotoscoping technique made much of the film look muddy and without proper detail. His Balrog looked like a monsterish version of the Disney character Goofy. The scene with the Nazgul on Weathertop was terrible with the Nazgul looking beyond bad. Helms Deep was almost like a bad Mad Magazine parody with all these actors hidden under robes and hoods with fangs coming out of their mouths that glowed in the dark.

If you have the Ballantine Books Filmbook of the movie you can see this in all its glory.

It has taken me years to get rid of some of those horrid images. Of course, I imagine that is how some here feel about the Jackson films.

But it was obvious that the public certainly did not take to the Bakshi version as they did to the Jackson films. The public spoke loudly in that regard. They clearly voiced a preference.
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Old 09-20-2007, 04:26 PM   #15
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davem ... I have never heard the BBC broadcasts but will take up your challenge. I have ordered it through Amazon for $45.00 US.
Best Frodo, best Sam & best Gollum by far. Not to mention an amazing Saruman. http://www.briansibley.com/Broadcast...GoesEverOn.htm. Of course, you'll never know the thrill of waiting for the episodes to be broadcast over a six month period (originally as 26 half hour episodes on Sunday lunchtimes, re-cut to 13 hour long episodes for re-broadcast). And they retain Tolkien's dialogue for the most part, & many of the songs & poems.

And I note from Sibley's piece:

Quote:
The scripting took several months. The completed scripts were then sent to France to be read and approved by the author's son, Christopher Tolkien. His help with the project included recording an audiocassette of the acceptable pronunciation of Middle-earth words and names.
Quote:
I must take issue with the statement that the Bakshi film is no worse than the Jackson films. The Bakshi version was handicapped by the lack of the budget that Jackson had - so I concede that to you. But I found fault not with what he was unable to do - but what he did do. Boromir as a viking!!!!! Aragorn looking like some American Indian. The orcs were pretty terrible and the entire rotoscoping technique made much of the film look muddy and without proper detail. His Balrog looked like a monsterish version of the Disney character Goofy. The scene with the Nazgul on Weathertop was terrible with the Nazgul looking beyond bad. Helms Deep was almost like a bad Mad Magazine parody with all these actors hidden under robes and hoods with fangs coming out of their mouths that glowed in the dark.
Of course the look of the movie is terrible - but that's the point I'm making - Bakshi didn't have the resources Jackson did, & was basically having to invent the look of M-e from scratch. When I compare the money & technology the two directors had I have a softer spot for what Bakshi achieved than what PJ did. I'd seriously like Bakshi to have the same budget as Jackson & see what he made of it. I strongly suspect that if Jackson had been reduced to animation & rotoscoping his version would have been much worse than Bakshi's.

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Old 09-20-2007, 09:49 PM   #16
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Would you have it any other way? I think a perfect balance has been struck. Fans have been introduced to Tolkien's works through a magnificent and artful film trilogy. Yes, there were problems, discrepancies and changes, some more severe than others. But PJ knew he had to cater to more than purists if he was to create magic at the box office, and I think he did well overall.

Look at the results. The films reign among the very great now, and have enticed many more to read Tolkien's works. I doubt this very forum would be at its current state if the film had not come into being.

And yet, there are those of us who can still maintain a Tolkien purity of sorts. It is we who were interested in the books before the film, it is we who delve into the intricacies of the genealogies of the Eldar, it is we who, as Jason Fox of the comic "Foxtrot" once remarked, "drew detailed maps of Osgiliath on our notebooks during math class."

If I may say so without sounding arrogant or elitist, this base of fans who derive their knowledge of the films primarily from the films, don't have the richer, deeper background in Middle-Earth to appreciate the history, lore and legend.

I don't know about you, but it kind of makes me feel like I have an edge over the rest of these fans -- and yet I'm glad that Jackson has attracted their attentions so that LotR can have a more diverse range of devotees.
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Old 09-21-2007, 01:27 AM   #17
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I've considered doing brain surgery on myself just to remove "Where there's a whip, there's a way!"
Wait -- you're joking, right? "Where There's a Whip There's a Way" totally rockz!

We don't wanna go to war today
But the lord of the lash says nay, nay, nay!

It's catchy, man! Not to mention it's almost canonical. And that groovy synth bass was state of the art at the time (okay, that part's not canonical, though). Besides, what other version of LotR makes you feel compassion for the hapless, lowly orc foot soldier?

Anyway, brain surgery won't work. Someone's bound to come along and hit you up with a YouTube link and then you have to take the power drill out all over again.
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Old 09-21-2007, 07:28 AM   #18
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I do not think jealousy has anything to do with it. I suppose that could be the case for a few people, but for most? No.

I, for one, am very happy the films did well, for I know it sparked interest in reading the books in more than one person I know personally, who previously did not read them.

I have not denied that I prefer the books, but I do not hate the movies at all. In fact, I am not ashamed to admit that I like the movies. Does that mean I do not think Jackson dropped the ball in many ways in how he handled, how he changed the characters, characters that needed no changing? No, it does not. I do believe he made some egregious errors in character manipulation, particularly in the portrayal of Faramir.

Merry
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Old 09-21-2007, 08:31 AM   #19
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It's catchy, man!
And therein lies the problem. It's like a modern day version of Frodo's experience with the One Ring as he crawled across the Gorgoroth. The Whip song burns itself into your mind, and you can never ever again be free of its call.
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Old 09-21-2007, 08:35 AM   #20
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One thing kept coming up in posts from people who tend to not say very good things about the films: and that is that Peter Jackson had the gall to think he could do it beter and make improvements over the book
Whenever has PJ stated thta his films are better than the books? And he has acknowledged many times how good the books are.

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Lets face it folks - more people have seen the film version of LOTR than have read the books. And that is the great sin of Peter Jackson. He was so successful that purists despise it that LOTR is now thought of as a film in the minds of hundreds of millions of people all over the world.
LOTR is continuosly near or at the top of best loved book lists here in England. Thousands of people have been drawn to the book and have read it BECAUSE of the movies.

Themovie is an adaptation of the Books. If we wanted a word for word copy of the book on celluloid, it would take about 54 hours (the length of the unabridged narrated works available on audio) - Not 9 or 12 hours which we are given - Parts had to be left out and some changed to work on screen.

I'm not saying things were NOT done different to how I would have. But I didn't commit 10 years and probably a lot of my own money to make the films. Neither did you. But Peter Jackson did.
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Old 09-21-2007, 09:30 AM   #21
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We can't however ignore the effect the movies have had on at least some readers, presumably of the younger sort. Moving through Web fora where the younger set hang out, this is typical of the opinions expressed:

"Yeah, I tried to read the books but never finished the first one. BOOO-OOORING! Almost no action or fighting, just a lot of descriptions and talking. Jackson did a good job cutting out most of the dull stuff and making those moldy old books exciting."

I wish I was making this up, but I'm not.



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When I picked this book up I thought i was in for a treat. everyone told me how good it was but in reality, it was BORING! I read more captivating stories in my textbooks at school! It did have a very complex and very well thought plot line but other than that the only thing good about this book was the MOVIE!!!!!There wasn't one time that i read more than 5 pages without dozing off! In summary i didn't really enjoy this book snd wouldn't reccomend it to anyone unless they had difficulties sleeping!!!! By the way, did i mention BORING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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yeah well i only read half of the first book. i am TOTALLY obsessed with the movies, but i couldnt make it through the book. its too slow but yeah
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"Well, the movie is coming out, and many people say this book is great, so I picked it up.

So far, it is everything I feared it would be.

I have read 130 pages filled with hobbit lameness, and the total cumulation of actual events could have easily been written in 20 pages, with a decent level of description and atmosphere. There is at least one superfluos poem or song every 3 pages
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Actually I've always said that Peter Jackson did the "William Goldman version" of LotR. Goldman of course wrote the Princess Bride which he says is an abridged version of an older book by a man named Morgenstern. (It's not actually - the book is all Goldman's work.) The line is that Goldman abridged the book, leaving out all of the boring stuff and only keeping all of the interesting and exciting parts - the fights and chases and whatnot. Which is more or less what Jackson did with the movies
--from the National Novel-writing Month Forum!

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while every loves the lord of the rings books, i thought this book was so boring i couldn't believe how everyone could love it! i thought most people didn't like to read yet claim they love this book? i mean, it seems so impossible! this book is so slow i couldn't believe i was still reading it. i have seen the movies and i love the movies but i couldn't make it past the part in the book when they leave the main village next to their hobbit village. i mean, it takes them 20 years to leave the hobbit village! then they are stuck doing a bunch of ridiculous things on the way to the next village. i guess it was some impending doom that was coming because they sure acting quickly! at this rate, they might die before they get the fight the bad guy since they were already so old
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I personally have enjoyed the Lord of the Rings movies very much, but everytime i try to read the books, find that i cannot.The way Tolkein writes rather bores me.. I would swear that my math teacher had written them.
Of course, this is 21st-century America- where to the vast majority the name 'Notre Dame' means a football team.
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Old 09-21-2007, 09:31 AM   #22
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It's catchy, man!
It really is! Though the lyrics don't make much sense. 'We don't want to go to war today but the lord of the lash says nay, nay, nay.' Huh? Still, I might have to find the rest of that version. A good rainy day film methinks.
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Old 09-21-2007, 09:37 AM   #23
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It really is! Though the lyrics don't make much sense. 'We don't want to go to war today but the lord of the lash says nay, nay, nay.' Huh? Still, I might have to find the rest of that version. A good rainy day film methinks.
These orcs were reluctant to fight as they'd rather be crooning.
  • They don't want to go to war - like the orcs that Sam and Frodo overhear in Mordor wanting to set out on their own.
  • The lord of the lash, presumably Sauron the Eye with long lashes (really it's a whip) says, "No" in that He wants them to go to war.

Make more sense? Don't worry, when you've heard it replayed in your head about a billion times, it'll sink in.
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Old 09-21-2007, 01:28 PM   #24
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Not to mention an amazing Saruman.
Although I thought every Christmas had arrived at once with the casting of Christopher Lee as Saruman - he just owns the role. Shame he was done such a disservice in the final film. Wholly disrespectful to a great actor. And all this even though my mental image of Saruman is very different - a bit like Ming The Merciless from Flash Gordon but with hair...

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And therein lies the problem. It's like a modern day version of Frodo's experience with the One Ring as he crawled across the Gorgoroth. The Whip song burns itself into your mind, and you can never ever again be free of its call.
There is, however, a rather good metal version of it that can be heard in the film Ringers. Somehow singing about whips makes sense if set to pounding rock music
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Old 09-21-2007, 02:38 PM   #25
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Although I thought every Christmas had arrived at once with the casting of Christopher Lee as Saruman - he just owns the role. Shame he was done such a disservice in the final film. Wholly disrespectful to a great actor. And all this even though my mental image of Saruman is very different - a bit like Ming The Merciless from Flash Gordon but with hair...
The BBC Saruman slaps down Eomer....http://www.istad.org/bbc/saruman.mp3

Frodo slaps down Gollum http://www.istad.org/bbc/gollum.mp3

And a very good piece on the series http://www.squidoo.com/audiolotr/
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Old 09-21-2007, 02:55 PM   #26
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Green Army of the dead.
Tying ring to Arwen.
Making Arwen a weak girly elf.
Elrond being a snob.
Comic Relief Gimli (boo) (really boo)
Surfing Legolas a.k.a. Teenage boy Legolas.
Farting Hobbits.
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Old 09-21-2007, 05:49 PM   #27
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Wait a second, can we back up? "Howsumever"?
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Old 09-21-2007, 05:58 PM   #28
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well I'll add my 2 gold here as someone who has read the four books (yes I'm counting the Hobbit in here folks) for over 30+ years now I loved the movies, the expanded versions he released are even better IMHO, my only regrett is that he PJ didn't film the Battle for the Shire which he even stated was the least favorite part of books, i've seen the RB film, hell saw it in the theater and own a dvd of it....overall I'm very pleased with the movies and yes hopefully I'll still be around in 35 years to watch them.
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Old 09-22-2007, 02:05 AM   #29
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Wait a second, can we back up? "Howsumever"?
Eng. coloq., innit?
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Old 09-22-2007, 05:37 AM   #30
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We can't however ignore the effect the movies have had on at least some readers, presumably of the younger sort.
I'm not sure whether this effect is so serious. I mean, let's be honest, even before the movies, there have been people who read the books but didn't like them or didn't even make it through, haven't there?

The difference is that now there is a second "entry" to Middle-earth. Before, if one wanted the LotR, one had to read - and had no choice. It didn't matter whether one found Tolkien's style to be boring or slow or whatever. If one liked the story by itself, one needed to read it. Now there's a second approach: easier and more suitable for today's mass culture (keep in mind, this would have been the case, too, if the movies were more faithful to the original). Now one can enjoy the story without having to bother with reading it. Now one can not like the books but still enjoy its story.

Though this is surely sad to lose many readers, I think the question is: are these people really a loss to the LotR readership? I don't mean to sound arrogant, but I don't really think so. Without the movies, they probably simply wouldn't be here at all to contribute their opinions on Tolkien (and Jackson). I would claim that their loss is quite compensated by the gain of people who wouldn't have picked up the books without the movies, and the people whose interest in them has been re-sparked because of them.
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Old 09-22-2007, 08:11 AM   #31
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I'm not sure whether this effect is so serious. I mean, let's be honest, even before the movies, there have been people who read the books but didn't like them or didn't even make it through, haven't there?

The difference is that now there is a second "entry" to Middle-earth. Before, if one wanted the LotR, one had to read - and had no choice. It didn't matter whether one found Tolkien's style to be boring or slow or whatever. If one liked the story by itself, one needed to read it. Now there's a second approach: easier and more suitable for today's mass culture (keep in mind, this would have been the case, too, if the movies were more faithful to the original). Now one can enjoy the story without having to bother with reading it. Now one can not like the books but still enjoy its story.

Though this is surely sad to lose many readers, I think the question is: are these people really a loss to the LotR readership? I don't mean to sound arrogant, but I don't really think so. Without the movies, they probably simply wouldn't be here at all to contribute their opinions on Tolkien (and Jackson). I would claim that their loss is quite compensated by the gain of people who wouldn't have picked up the books without the movies, and the people whose interest in them has been re-sparked because of them.
I agree. I now consider Tolkien to be one of the finest writers of all time and his books some of the best ever published, and what led me to this? Peter Jackson's movies. I remember reading the books madly throughout 2002 after seeing FOTR the previous December. Peter Jackson's work was not perfect but it introduced me to Tolkien's, which is pretty much perfect. So I have him to thank for that.


BTW, the 'Where's There's A Whip There's A Way' is quite possibly the worst movie scene of all time. I'm sure to suffer from musical depression for months now.

Also, it's full of errors. Firstly, Sam claims they've slept until 'daylight'. Daylight in Mordor? Also, when the orc captain sees Frodo and Sam...their helmets have only got nose-guards and their faces are fully visible, so surely the captain would have recognised them right away? Finally, it gets even worse when Sam openly says, right in front of the captain, "We're in luck. He thinks we're orcs". What terrible scene directing.
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Old 09-22-2007, 11:35 AM   #32
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Eng. coloq., innit?
Fo shizz., my nig.

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Old 09-22-2007, 11:46 AM   #33
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William Cloud Hickli's post has a feeling to it I don't like, and that is familiar...

I think there is a feeling that, to not enjoy Tolkien's works is to be unintelligent, when there is nothing to say that at all. I know some very intelligent people who don't like reading fantasy, enjoy a very different style, and others who don't like reading much at all. I think it's sad that some don't enjoy reading in general, but I know not to automatically judge them as a waste of time.

Personally, I've actually grown less fond of Tolkien's style and story since I first read The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit (yes, which I read because of the movies). I'm much more a fan of the world then the story or his actual writing.

I've only made it through The Lord of the Rings entirely once, though I've seen the movies numerous times.

Does that mean I am a teenage Peter Jackson movie casualty (or *worse yet*, a casualty of '21st century America')?

No, it means my tastes have changed, and they'll probably change again.

And for practicality's sake...the book does take considerably more time to read than it does to watch the movies.

So, "Where there's a whip, there's a way" is remembered, but the sheepishly-grinning-Orcs-in-flowery-Mordor scene is not? The dreamed of brotherhood of Orcs and Hobbits is lost to us, it seems. *tear*
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Old 09-23-2007, 09:00 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quempel View Post
Green Army of the dead.
Tying ring to Arwen.
Making Arwen a weak girly elf.
Elrond being a snob.
Comic Relief Gimli (boo) (really boo)
Surfing Legolas a.k.a. Teenage boy Legolas.
Farting Hobbits.
Green army of the dead was okay...why not?

Dittos on Arwen. Elrond was harsh, could have shown more of his father-figure treatments of Aragorn. But since they made Aragorn hesitant to claim the throne, perhaps Elrond was being hard on him to get him to buck up.

I don't know WHAT you're talking about with the hobbits?

Another mistake was in weakening Faramir's character.

Do we have a comprehensive list of these yet?
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Old 09-26-2007, 08:17 PM   #35
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I agree that it is sad that more people have seen the movies than have read the books and that many of those people think the movies are better than the books. For me both the books and the movies are fantastic in their own right and while the movies have their drawbacks I still don't feel the need to bash them. Yeah, they're not perfect...but they're still great.
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