Tom Bombadil

[Alchisiel]

What was Tom Bombadil? I know he was quite old but was he a Maia, or something like that? Also when do you think he was "born"? It's a question that's been on my mind for a while. I'm not as smart as some of you people. Can't figure it out myself.

[Bombadil]

ahhh, good ole Tom will field that. I am an enigma, the mystery to Tolkien's mythology. J.R.R Tolkien says so in his letters. I don't know if you'll ever find out who or what i am...but it is one of the most popular topics people enjoy. Check the archives! There are numerous discussions about me!

I think he may have been some kind of spirit being sent to ME to help govern the Old forest. That's just an idea.Hope I helped!

[The Perky Ent]

I personally don't think he's a maia, since tolkien throughly covered that topic. My best guess is that he is either a forest spirit watching over the world, or a man who has been taught magic by the Istari! But that's just me...

[Gil-Galad]

Since maia are influenced by the ring, i would say that good ol' tom is more pwoerful then a maiar, and only valar are! but we know it probaly not valar...so thats leads to Eru himself!

[Fingolfin II]

There's been speculation about whether Tom Bombadil is an embodiment of Eru himself, but JRRT has refuted this several times in his letters. He's said that there is no form or embodiment for Eru- he just is. I personally think Bombadil is a spirit, rather than a Maia or Vala.

[Gothmog]

Perky Ent:

My best guess is that he is either a forest spirit watching over the world, or a man who has been taught magic by the Istari! But that's just me...

As I remember, Tom has been walking ME long before the Istari came, before the birth of men and before the sun and moon... I think he's something else, something created from nature itself. I agree with Gil-Galad that he must be more powerful than a maia, maybe even than valar.

Maybe he's equal to Eru or maybe Eru created him as he created valar and maiar... I don't know, but I don't think he's created by valar or maiar and neither do I think he originally was a human or elf.

[samwise8504]

i believe that bombadil is either a maia or a spirit since he says that he's the oldest

[The Perky Ent]

Another theroy, though wrong, is that before Eru Created the Ainur and Valar, he made Bombadil, but screwed up so he ditched him in a forest and started making Valar. It's wrong, but it could be right...but most likely wrong

[Gothmog]

Well, not to criticize you again Perky, but there was no forest to ditch him in before the valar existed. The ainur and valar created Arda with their music. I agree, it's wrong...

[Potatothan]

Originally Posted by Gothmog

Perky Ent:

As I remember, Tom has been walking ME long before the Istari came, before the birth of men and before the sun and moon... I think he's something else, something created from nature itself. I agree with Gil-Galad that he must be more powerful than a maia, maybe even than valar.

No, Tom was not more powerfull than a Valar, I don't know for sure if he is stronger than a Maiar either. For Gandalf himself was bound by law and could not use his full strength. In the book, during the counsil of Elrond, they think of giving the ring to Bombadil. Gandalf rejects this for not even Bombadil could withhold the storm that Sauron would unleash on him. So even though he is not affected by the ring, does not mean he is stronger than a Maia or Valar. For a Valar could easely defeat Sauron, even with his ring.

What Tom is beats me, perhaps just like the ents, something completely different. Not listed, but known all over. But if you consider that gandalf foresees, that he will be the last to fall, like he was the first, he must have great power. Like tom says himself, he is the master. And that is all. He is just a wonderfull creature (so to speak) that has nothing to do with no one. Another question, his wife. How great was the power she posessed?

~Potatothan

[Gothmog]

What Tom is beats me, perhaps just like the ents, something completely different. Not listed, but known all over.

Well, maybe but the ents were created by valar (on Yavannas request if remember correctly) and Tom was "the first and last" (right?). I've always presumed that he existed before ME was created...

[Potatothan]

He doesn't nescesarely have to be there before the Valar. He was the first in Middle-Earth yes, but didn't the valar first dwell in Valinor, maybe he got there right afther the Valar, or at the same time.

~Potatothan

[Gothmog]

True, Potatothan. There is no answer to the question "who was Tom Bombadil".
I don't think JRRT himself knew exactly who or what he was, he's an enigma as Bombadil says...

Everybody have to decide what THEY believe, there is no correct or wrong answer. I still think that he existed before ME was created. if he was mightier than valar or not is unimportant, he was happy with his life and didn't try to rule ME, or prevent those who wanted to. I think thats why he wasn't influenced by the ring's power, he didn't want more power. Even if Galadriel and Gandalf were "good " there was a certain longing for power in their heart. I think Tom was far beyond that.

That's MY opinion...

[Isowen]

I never really thought about it but I always just thought he was some kind of spirit, whatever he is, the people of the forum seem to enjoy talking about him!

[Morsul the Dark]

let us return for a moment to the the good ol' days of creation a good friend Yavanna created ents (by my understanding) by putting spirits into trees to protect them from the dwarves... what if one of these spirits as apposed to becoming treeish became more active especially when seeing a certain miss goldberry He may have originally been an ent spirit that escaped his tree(who became souless and evil (our Mr. Old Man Willow))

[Encaitare]

Interesting theory, Morsul! I also like the idea that Tom Bombadil is Eru, but I don't necessarily believe it. Still, the thought of this great sage god hopping around a forest going "ring a dong dillo!" all the time is quite amusing

But Tom has the life, though. He gets to run around the woods and gather water-lillies for his "pretty lady" and sing random syllables and save hobbitses from nassty demises. Seems like a pretty good existence to me.

[Boromir88]

Let it be known also since Bombadil is one of the unanswered questions Tolkien left for us, we can never know truly what Bombadil is. Only speculation, but through other writings we can limit some of the choices.

Choices could be....
Eru
Maia
Valar
Tolkien writing himself into the story
An Enigma

We can automatically eliminate Valar, since all the Valar are accounted for. Also, we can eliminate Eru. Since it was stated Eru never set foot upon Arda. Also, Eru is like the god representative in Tolkien's stories. According to Glorfindel, Bombadil could be beaten, and of course we have to assume no one is more powerful then god.

The Council of Elrond
"But in any case" said Glorfindel, "to send the ring to him would only postpone the day of evil. He is far away. We could not now take it back to him, unguessed, unmarked by any spy. And even if we could, soon or late the Lord of the Rings would learn of its hiding place and would bend all his power towards it. Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Las as he was First; and then Night will come."

Obviously, we will never know what will happen if that day Glorfindel spoke of was to come. If Bombadil was the last standing on Middle-earth. If he truly would have fallen to Sauron. However, in my personal opinion, Glorfindel is a person who in death gained much wisdom, and is one of the more powerful elves still left during this time, I believe we can trust his word. I think the fact that it was said Eru never steppef foot on Arda we can say Bombadil wasn't Eru.

Anything beyond this point, to me, is speculation. Was he a Maia? Possibly, after all, not all Maia were named or are accounted for. Could he be Tolkien himself? Maybe. I do think Bombadil actually was Tolkien writing himself into the story. Look to see what we got, Bombadil is the only person, that we are aware of, that the ring has no effect on. Would a Maia be able to do such a thing? Could a Maia have no care for the "one ring?" In my opion, no. If we take a look at Goldberry's words...

In The House of Tom Bombadil
"Fair lady!" said Frodo again after a while. "Tell me, if my asking does not seem foolish, who is Tom Bombadil."
"He is," said Goldberry...

I've been searching, but I can't find the exact quote, however I do know Goldberry refers to Tom as "He just is," and "Master."

Since, I've established its not Eru, "master" and "he just is" makes me refer to the "master of the story," the "creator" of Lord of the Rings, and is therefor Tolkien writing himself into the story. Talked about in the "Old Forest discussion" in the "Chapter-by-Chapter" threads, it appears the whole "Old Forest" is itself "magical" something totally different from the "magic" of the elves or the "magic" from the rest of Middle-Earth. It's just a mysterious, magical place. Tom Bombadil isn't that important of a character, sure he helps Frodo and the others out of some sticky situations, but the ring has no effect on him. He is the only person, that we know of, who wasn't "tempted" by the ring. Again which is why I think it is Tolkien. However, as I've stated Bombadil is an unanswerable question, we can only come up with conjectures, and conjectures are not facts. This is my opinion.

[Bombadil]

Very good points Boromir, but let's not forget Bombadil is naught but the finger of Sauron reborn. (For any who are confused look at the Middle-Earth Mirth thread about Sauron's lost finger)

[Morsul the Dark]

Theory #388373553668753786986214 about Tom Bombadil as a peron/being

Just jokingly somewhere (I searched I really did) is a story of Sauron's finger crawling to the old forest...

now clues we see

Sauron doesnt turn invisible with ring on
Bombadil doesnt turn invisible with ring on

Where the chopped off fingers went is never explained
(this was part of the joke but it is true)
Sauron is a Maiar so we must assume some good existed in him

This good may have basicly subsided into one of the fingers and manifested into what Tom Bombadil is today...

[Dûrbelethwen]

I do not know how I came up with this idea except it has a connection with a topic I was thinking of posting.
It is my opinion that the Valar for the most part abandoned Middle Earth after they set up Valinor. Except for the war at the end of the First Age and the sending of the Valar they did nothing to help Middle Earth. When the elves woke up they tried to get all of them to leave Middle Earth, if they had succeeded then the elves would have had no effect on the history of Middle Earth which seems to me is against the purpose of Eru. Also the Valar removed the Edain from Middle Earth and gave them Numenor.
Now for my idea: Maybe Tom Bombadil was an Ainur of the Valar class (if that is the right phraseology) that Eru sent to Middle Earth after the Valar set up Valinor.

Here's a rather comprehensive essay concerning Tom Bombadil's identity.

http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/Bombadil.html

[Elu Ancalime]

I do not know how I came up with this idea except it has a connection with a topic I was thinking of posting.
It is my opinion that the Valar for the most part abandoned Middle Earth after they set up Valinor. Except for the war at the end of the First Age and the sending of the Valar they did nothing to help Middle Earth. When the elves woke up they tried to get all of them to leave Middle Earth, if they had succeeded then the elves would have had no effect on the history of Middle Earth which seems to me is against the purpose of Eru. Also the Valar removed the Edain from Middle Earth and gave them Numenor.
Now for my idea: Maybe Tom Bombadil was an Ainur of the Valar class (if that is the right phraseology) that Eru sent to Middle Earth after the Valar set up Valinor.

I wish that were true, because I like that myself. But, Tolkien states that all the Valar were accounted for. Perhaps an Ainu, though, but neither a Vala or a Maia: See my theory.

And while your at it, I reccomend you take your disscussion to that thread and vote in the poll.
________
Easyvape vaporizer

[Legolas in spandex]

It may be entirely incorrect, but I was told he was part giant, part human, and part, like, elf or something-or-another.

[The Sixth Wizard]

This is a very hard topic to talk about.


From the Encyclopaedia of Arda

1. Bombadil Within Tolkien's Cosmology
Tolkien's universe is inhabited by a multitude of races and beings: our problem is that what we know of Tom does not fit easily with any of these. He seems almost to have been 'transplanted' from elsewhere. In fact, this is almost certainly what happened, at least in a literary sense, but at this point we are concerned primarily with giving Tom a place within Tolkien's universe.

Though there are many candidates to choose from, we can at least dismiss most of these immediately. Tom is definitely not a Man, a Hobbit, a Dwarf, or indeed of any mortal kind, and we can also take it for granted, for obvious reasons, that he is not an Orc, a Troll, an Ent, a Dragon or an Eagle! But this still leaves plenty of possibilities:

Was Tom an Elf?
Tom's capering, his wisdom, his great age and his love of song undoubtedly give him a certainly 'Elvish' quality. This possibility though, is easily disproved by the following from The Lord of the Rings:

"'When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already...'"
Tom's own words, from The Fellowship of the Ring I 7, In the House of Tom Bombadil


Tom would hardly have said this if he was an Elf himself! This is, incidentally, proof of Tom's great age - the Elves 'passed westward' in the Great Journey some six Ages before he spoke these words.

Was Tom a Maia?
This a very common suggestion, to the extent that it is sometimes treated almost as 'fact'. There is, though, no direct evidence for this - it seems to be based on the idea that since Tom can't be a Vala, and there is no other possibility, he must be a Maia. As we'll see, these are both flawed assumptions - Tom might be a Vala, and there is at least one other possibility.

Though we can't say for certain that Tom wasn't one of the Maiar, there are grave difficulties with this position. The most important of these is that the Ring had no effect on him:

"Then Tom put the Ring round the end of his little finger and held it up to the candlelight... There was no sign of Tom disappearing!"
The Fellowship of the Ring I 7, In the House of Tom Bombadil


There were other mighty Maiar in Middle-earth at the time of the War of the Ring, especially Sauron, Saruman and Gandalf, and all of these were in some sense under the power of the Ring. Yet Tom is unaffected by its power of invisibility, nor does he feel any desire to keep it (he hands it back to Frodo 'with a smile'). Tolkien himself points out the importance of Tom's immunity. On this topic, he says:

"The power of the Ring over all concerned, even the Wizards or Emissaries, is not a delusion - but it is not the whole picture, even of the then state and content of that part of the Universe."
The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No 153, dated 1954


Was Tom a Vala?
The last of Tolkien's named races (using the term loosely) that might include Tom is that of the Valar, the Powers of the World. A common argument against this is that we know the names of all the Valar, and Tom isn't among them. This doesn't hold water:

"...[the Valar] have other names in the speech of the Elves in Middle-earth, and their names among Men are manifold."
The Silmarillion, Valaquenta


While of Tom himself it is said:

"'[Bombadil] was not then his name. Iarwain Ben-adar we called him, oldest and fatherless. But many another name he has since been given by other folk...'"
Elrond, from The Fellowship of the Ring II 2, The Council of Elrond


It isn't inconceivable, then, that Tom is one of the fourteen known Valar, dwelling incognito in Middle-earth. Though we can't be certain, it seems likely that a Vala would be capable of resisting the power of the Ring, and so that difficulty can be set aside. The 'Vala Hypothesis', though, is not without difficulties of its own, with perhaps the most significant being:

"'Eldest, that's what I am... Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn... He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'"
The Fellowship of the Ring I 7, In the House of Tom Bombadil


All of the beings who became Valar existed before Arda was made, so any of them could with justification claim the title 'Eldest'. But Tom says he 'knew the dark under the stars' (that is, he was in the World, not outside it) 'before the Dark Lord came from Outside'. The term 'Dark Lord' is uncertain here - it might apply to either Melkor or Sauron, and both originally came from 'Outside' the World. If he means Melkor, then this is very significant: consider this description of the entry of the Valar into the World, from the original conception of the Silmarillion:

"Now swiftly as they fared, Melko was there before them..."
The Book of Lost Tales, Part I, III The Coming of the Valar and the Building of Valinor


'They' here refers to Manwë and Varda, who were explicitly the first Valar to enter Arda apart from Melko (Melkor). In Tolkien's original conception, then (and there is nothing in the published Silmarillion to contradict this) Melkor was the first being from 'Outside' to enter the World, and yet Tom suggests that he was already here when Melkor arrived!

Admittedly Tom may be referring to Sauron, who must have come to Arda after these great ones, but the phrase 'before the Dark Lord came from Outside' seems to make more sense if he means Melkor (that is, he is referring to an event of cosmic significance, and a specific point in the World's history, which isn't the case with Sauron).

This is only one of the objections to the Vala theory. Another, for example, is that characters who we would expect to recognize a Vala living in their midst (especially Gandalf) don't apparently do so.

There are many other arguments to be made both for and against Tom's status as a Vala. For a more detailed discussion of this topic, and some more concrete conclusions, Eugene Hargrove's fascinating essay Who is Tom Bombadil? is strongly recommended.

Was Tom Ilúvatar Himself?
Tom's powers are apparently limitless, at least within his own domain, and this has led a lot of people of suggest that he might be none other than Eru Ilúvatar himself. There are certainly several hints in the text of The Lord of the Rings that this might be the case; he is called 'Master', and 'Eldest', and Goldberry says of him simply;

"'He is.'"
The Lord of the Rings I 7, In the House of Tom Bombadil


All of these points might suggest that Tom and Ilúvatar were in some sense the same being. In fact, though, this is one of the very few theories about Tom that we can bring to a definite conclusion. This point is touched on several times in Tolkien's letters, and each time he makes it clear that Tom and Eru should not be confused. Perhaps his most definite statement is this:

"There is no embodiment of the One, of God, who indeed remains remote, outside the World, and only directly accessible to the Valar or Rulers."
The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien No 181, dated 1956


If there is no embodiment of the One (that is, Eru), then Tom cannot of course be such an embodiment.

Was Tom a 'Spirit'?
The idea that Tom might be a 'spirit' (as opposed to a Maia or Vala) is certainly possible according to The Silmarillion. Though it seems to be commonly assumed that only the Valar and the Maiar entered Arda, a tantalising glimpse of Tolkien's original vision survived into the published form of the work. Here, discussing the Aratar or eight mightiest Valar, he says:

"...in majesty they are peers, surpassing beyond compare all others, whether of the Valar and the Maiar, or of any other order that Ilúvatar has sent into Eä."
The Silmarillion, Valaquenta


This single phrase 'any other order' seems to be a survival of a much older and more detailed account found in the Lost Tales:

"...brownies, fays, pixies, leprawns, and what else are they not called, for their number is very great... they were born before the world and are older than its oldest, and are not of it, but laugh at it much..."
The Book of Lost Tales, Part I, III The Coming of the Valar and the Building of Valinor


It is hard not to hear the echo of Tom Bombadil in these words, and perhaps here we see the first germ of his inspiration (the Lost Tales predate Tom's first appearance in print by about a decade). Whether Tom is a brownie, fay, pixie or leprawn, though, is open to doubt - none of these creatures appears in Tolkien's published works, and their function as a bridge to later folklore seems to have been taken up, at least partly, by the Hobbits.

This version of the 'spirit' idea doesn't address many of the other problems already discussed, though. Why should a 'leprawn' be immune to the Ring when the Maiar are not? Could a 'brownie' have entered the World before the first of the Valar?

There is another kind of spirit that Tom could be though: a 'spirit of nature'. Tolkien himself seems to support this point of view:

"Do you think Tom Bombadil, the spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside, could be made into the hero of a story?"
The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No 19, dated 1937


This letter predates Tom's appearance in The Lord of the Rings (in fact, this quotation is part of discussion of the possible sequel to The Hobbit), so it is at best circumstantial evidence.

The idea of a 'nature spirit', though, is certainly possible within Tolkien's universe. Though this area of his cosmology is never directly addressed, Middle-earth seems at times to be full of spirits - at least some trees apparently have spirits, for example (consider Old Man Willow, or the Huorns of Fangorn). Consider too:

"'But the Elves of this land were of a race strange to us of the silvan folk, and the trees and the grass do not now remember them. Only I hear the stones lament them..."
Legolas, from The Fellowship of the Ring II 3, The Ring Goes South


There are numerous other examples of this kind: it is clear that in Tolkien's universe, the stuff of nature is somehow more alive, and more aware, than in the modern world. It is a short step from this to the idea of 'spirits of nature', but a much longer one to 'spirits of nature' that wear yellow boots and live in houses.


Gosh that's deep.