Was it Ireland...? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lila Bramble · 06-09-2002, 03:38 PM

Studying maps of western Old Irelnd I can match perfectly the western side of Middle-Earth, Gondor.

Joy · 06-09-2002, 05:08 PM

You know, I was thinking the same thing. I was looking at Ireland the other day and to me it looked a little like Valinor.

If you remeber England's history, they had to sail West - forced from their home land. Maybe this is part of what Tolkien had in mind.

Kin-strife · 06-10-2002, 03:07 AM

Being Irish I don't think its geographically big enough. I'd say, if anything, its Europe.

Melephelwen · 06-10-2002, 07:41 AM

But it would be cool anyways [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

Lila Bramble · 06-10-2002, 04:55 PM

Indeed, most people think they are from England or somewhere else in Europe. But, like in Ireland, hobbits drink ale from pubs, are lasses and lads, common terms for both places.

Also, the Shire is a very green place and that makes me thin: THE EMERALD ISLE!

Which also leads me to this...is it possible Middle-Earth was a real place? Considering that it is almost impossible to make up so many creatures and places, maybe Tolkien was told of this place, maybe it was a past of long ago, on this land, or is it just fantasy?

Lila Bramble · 06-10-2002, 04:56 PM

Indeed, most people think they are from England or somewhere else in Europe. But, like in Ireland, hobbits drink ale from pubs, are lasses and lads, common terms for both places.

Also, the Shire is a very green place and that makes me thin: THE EMERALD ISLE!

Which also leads me to this...is it possible Middle-Earth was a real place? Considering that it is almost impossible to make up so many creatures and places, maybe Tolkien was told of this place, maybe it was a past of long ago, on this land, or is it just fantasy?

Naurlothwen · 06-11-2002, 10:44 AM

yes I agree, Ireland is a place that fits the shire.
It is possible that there was once a "middle Earth" however in legend or in ancient times, tolkien used a different name. I believe that Tolkien could have possibly heard of such a place in legend or a long time ago and changed the name to match his liking. Therefore it is his created land, he can change things about it and no one would be the wiser because it is his own.

Elves dwarves and the olther creatures he added to Middle Earth hav already been heard of in legend so he could have added them to Middle Earth as the dwellers of Middle Earth regardless of whether they had lived on the place in legend or in old times or not.

However I do not know the truth, it is my belief that that is how middle earth could have been created.
-------------------------------------------
I hope I didnt bore you with my beliefs on Middle Earth but I spent last night thinking it up [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Lila Bramble · 06-11-2002, 01:32 PM

Naurlothwen, I agree with you, very much so! I'm happy someone finally realized the likeness of this place where Tolkien's books are and Ireland.

I hope Middle-Earth-or whatever it was called- did exsist, that would be so cool if we met its residents in heaven...

*DOn't mind me, I'm a Christian, though I have some faith in Middle-Earth* [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Joy · 06-11-2002, 10:28 PM

On another note, look at Apendix B in RotK, it is noted that Thranduil and Celeborn renamed Mirkwood Eryn Lasgalan. Sounds Irish to me. I'm trying to find an equavalent to
Lasgalan.

Okay, Las means Light in Irish, gael means people, and an is the. A rough translation would be The Light people. Eryn could be a purposefull mispelling of of Erin, which is the old name of Ireland [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] Just a thought.

Kin-strife · 06-12-2002, 07:03 AM

Tolkien said he didn't particularly like the Gaelic language so I don't think it would have provided the basis for any of his own languages. I found a quote in his letters written in 1955 where he says that he finds "both Gaelic and the air of Ireland wholly alien - though the latter (not the language) is attractive." he also wrote in 1967 "I have no liking at all for Gaelic from old Irish downwards, as a language". But he admitted that it was of great philological interest so he has studied it. The word nazg (ring) in the Black speech, he wrote, is probably derived from the Gaelic word nasc (in Scottish usually written: nasg) which has the same meaning. However, he says it wasn't done intentionaly.

I think the Shire was based quite simply on the rural England where he lived with his brother and his mother before her death (Warwickshire to be precise). Indeed, a lot of the place names in rural England end in shire. In rural England people drink ale from pubs also and use the terms lad and lassie. The term lad is common all over Ireland and Britain as a whole. The term lassie is mainly Scottish and colleen (from Gaelic cailìn is more common in Ireland.

Taking Middle-earth as a whole, Tolkien said that all the history is "supposed to take place in a period of the actual Old World of this planet". He wrote that the name "is just a use of Middle English middel-erde (or erthe), altered from Old English Middangeard: the name of the inhabited lands of Men 'between the seas'".

Aldagrim Proudfoot · 06-12-2002, 07:41 AM

Quote:

It's impossible to create so many names and places.

What about the people who make Dungeons and Dragons? I'm not saying it's not a nice idea about M-E, but it's not impossible to create a fantasy world. After all, he worked on Silmarrillion for about 60 years(notebooks from c.1917 were found and his son had to put them all together). Personally, I think Tolkien was a genius and created, as he put it, a Secondary World.

Aldagrim Proudfoot · 06-12-2002, 07:43 AM

P.S. I also saw a documentary on Tolkien that the Shire was based on where he lived. Street names for towns. There was even a mill worked by a father and son where he grew up.

***Mithadan*** · 06-12-2002, 07:55 AM

Kin-Strife! Long time! Welcome back to the Downs!

Melephelwen · 06-12-2002, 08:15 AM

This is probably not important, but...

In the religion of the vikings (those tall, blond men from the north, sailing all around Europe and all the way to America around 1000 years ago) the land of Men is called Midgård (the gods lived in Asgård and the giants (similar to trolls or orcs I believe) lived in Udgård).
The Danish word for Middle-earth is 'Midgård' (which means 'world in the middle' - not directly, but it's the best translation)
Asgård means 'world of the As'es (one god = one as)
Udgård means 'the world outside' or something like that.

Could Tolkien in some way have been inspired by that?

The Silver-shod Muse · 06-12-2002, 08:47 AM

Yes, Meleph, there is a remarkable resemblance there. After all, didn't Tolkien spend years studying ancient Norse legends and mythology?

Somebody said that Ireland/England would have been too small to hold all ME's activity. Here's a test: It took the Nine Walkers less than a year to walk and ride from the Shire to Mordor and Minas Tirith and back. How long would it take to walk south to the bottom of Ireland and back again?

You must excuse my distorted sense of distance. After all, I'm from Texas; everything's bigger here. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: The Silver-shod Muse ]

greyhavener · 06-12-2002, 09:12 AM

Didn't Tolkien say he wanted to create a mythology for England? Perhaps this was an England before the Valar did some rearranging of mountains and put a sea between England and Ireland. Just conjecture.

Lila Bramble · 06-17-2002, 06:51 AM

Yes, Scotland is always possible, as is Viking places. It was said Tolkien was basing it on his hometown in England, I was just thinking how similar Ireland is to the Middle-Earth. Well, part of Middle-Earth as in the western realms.

But, as in Middle-Earth is in olden times, maybe Ireland and England were connected. The Shire could possibly be part of Ireland, even if Tolkien meant it or not, it is quite probable.

Aldagrim Proudfoot · 06-17-2002, 07:29 AM

That makes sense. After all, It would have had to change shape to be what it is now.

Luthien_ Tinuviel · 06-17-2002, 03:09 PM

Tolkien studied Norse mythology, so Tolkien experts say he got Middle-Earth from Mittengeard. Also I've read some Norse mythology lately, and I would say that Tolkien was somewhat inspired by it, as he uses certain elements and ideas from it in his writing.

06-09-2002, 03:38 PM	#1
Lila Bramble Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Willowbottom, the Shire Posts: 89	Was it Ireland...? Studying maps of western Old Irelnd I can match perfectly the western side of Middle-Earth, Gondor. __________________ "So I suck at life. Don't hate me for it!" -Myself "I think a person should run only if he's being chased." -Casey (Elijah Wood) from the Faculty (Just saw it for the fifth time!) ~Ja Ne and Peace to All~ Lila Bramble

06-09-2002, 05:08 PM	#2
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,020	You know, I was thinking the same thing. I was looking at Ireland the other day and to me it looked a little like Valinor. If you remeber England's history, they had to sail West - forced from their home land. Maybe this is part of what Tolkien had in mind. __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

06-10-2002, 03:07 AM	#3
Kin-strife Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Dublin, Ireland Posts: 58	Being Irish I don't think its geographically big enough. I'd say, if anything, its Europe. __________________ "Come away, O human child!/ To the waters and the wild/With a faery hand in hand,/ For the world's more full of weeping than you can understand."

06-10-2002, 07:41 AM	#4
Melephelwen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: the Middle of Nowhere Posts: 295	But it would be cool anyways [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] __________________ We're all following a strange melody We're all summoned by a tune We're following the piper And we dance beneath the moon

06-10-2002, 04:55 PM	#5
Lila Bramble Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Willowbottom, the Shire Posts: 89	Indeed, most people think they are from England or somewhere else in Europe. But, like in Ireland, hobbits drink ale from pubs, are lasses and lads, common terms for both places. Also, the Shire is a very green place and that makes me thin: THE EMERALD ISLE! Which also leads me to this...is it possible Middle-Earth was a real place? Considering that it is almost impossible to make up so many creatures and places, maybe Tolkien was told of this place, maybe it was a past of long ago, on this land, or is it just fantasy? __________________ "So I suck at life. Don't hate me for it!" -Myself "I think a person should run only if he's being chased." -Casey (Elijah Wood) from the Faculty (Just saw it for the fifth time!) ~Ja Ne and Peace to All~ Lila Bramble

06-10-2002, 04:56 PM	#6
Lila Bramble Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Willowbottom, the Shire Posts: 89	Indeed, most people think they are from England or somewhere else in Europe. But, like in Ireland, hobbits drink ale from pubs, are lasses and lads, common terms for both places. Also, the Shire is a very green place and that makes me thin: THE EMERALD ISLE! Which also leads me to this...is it possible Middle-Earth was a real place? Considering that it is almost impossible to make up so many creatures and places, maybe Tolkien was told of this place, maybe it was a past of long ago, on this land, or is it just fantasy? __________________ "So I suck at life. Don't hate me for it!" -Myself "I think a person should run only if he's being chased." -Casey (Elijah Wood) from the Faculty (Just saw it for the fifth time!) ~Ja Ne and Peace to All~ Lila Bramble

06-11-2002, 10:44 AM	#7
Naurlothwen Animated Skeleton Join Date: May 2002 Location: Rivendell Posts: 26	yes I agree, Ireland is a place that fits the shire. It is possible that there was once a "middle Earth" however in legend or in ancient times, tolkien used a different name. I believe that Tolkien could have possibly heard of such a place in legend or a long time ago and changed the name to match his liking. Therefore it is his created land, he can change things about it and no one would be the wiser because it is his own. Elves dwarves and the olther creatures he added to Middle Earth hav already been heard of in legend so he could have added them to Middle Earth as the dwellers of Middle Earth regardless of whether they had lived on the place in legend or in old times or not. However I do not know the truth, it is my belief that that is how middle earth could have been created. ------------------------------------------- I hope I didnt bore you with my beliefs on Middle Earth but I spent last night thinking it up [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost;

06-11-2002, 01:32 PM	#8
Lila Bramble Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Willowbottom, the Shire Posts: 89	Naurlothwen, I agree with you, very much so! I'm happy someone finally realized the likeness of this place where Tolkien's books are and Ireland. I hope Middle-Earth-or whatever it was called- did exsist, that would be so cool if we met its residents in heaven... DOn't mind me, I'm a Christian, though I have some faith in Middle-Earth [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ "So I suck at life. Don't hate me for it!" -Myself "I think a person should run only if he's being chased." -Casey (Elijah Wood) from the Faculty (Just saw it for the fifth time!) ~Ja Ne and Peace to All~ Lila Bramble

06-11-2002, 10:28 PM	#9
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,020	On another note, look at Apendix B in RotK, it is noted that Thranduil and Celeborn renamed Mirkwood Eryn Lasgalan. Sounds Irish to me. I'm trying to find an equavalent to Lasgalan. Okay, Las means Light in Irish, gael means people, and an is the. A rough translation would be The Light people. Eryn could be a purposefull mispelling of of Erin, which is the old name of Ireland [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] Just a thought. __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

06-12-2002, 07:03 AM	#10
Kin-strife Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Dublin, Ireland Posts: 58	Tolkien said he didn't particularly like the Gaelic language so I don't think it would have provided the basis for any of his own languages. I found a quote in his letters written in 1955 where he says that he finds "both Gaelic and the air of Ireland wholly alien - though the latter (not the language) is attractive." he also wrote in 1967 "I have no liking at all for Gaelic from old Irish downwards, as a language". But he admitted that it was of great philological interest so he has studied it. The word nazg (ring) in the Black speech, he wrote, is probably derived from the Gaelic word nasc (in Scottish usually written: nasg) which has the same meaning. However, he says it wasn't done intentionaly. I think the Shire was based quite simply on the rural England where he lived with his brother and his mother before her death (Warwickshire to be precise). Indeed, a lot of the place names in rural England end in shire. In rural England people drink ale from pubs also and use the terms lad and lassie. The term lad is common all over Ireland and Britain as a whole. The term lassie is mainly Scottish and colleen (from Gaelic cailìn is more common in Ireland. Taking Middle-earth as a whole, Tolkien said that all the history is "supposed to take place in a period of the actual Old World of this planet". He wrote that the name "is just a use of Middle English middel-erde (or erthe), altered from Old English Middangeard: the name of the inhabited lands of Men 'between the seas'". __________________ "Come away, O human child!/ To the waters and the wild/With a faery hand in hand,/ For the world's more full of weeping than you can understand."

06-12-2002, 07:43 AM	#12
Aldagrim Proudfoot Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hobbiton Posts: 328	P.S. I also saw a documentary on Tolkien that the Shire was based on where he lived. Street names for towns. There was even a mill worked by a father and son where he grew up. __________________ I do not suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it!

06-12-2002, 07:55 AM	#13
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,314	Kin-Strife! Long time! Welcome back to the Downs! __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

06-12-2002, 08:15 AM	#14
Melephelwen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: the Middle of Nowhere Posts: 295	This is probably not important, but... In the religion of the vikings (those tall, blond men from the north, sailing all around Europe and all the way to America around 1000 years ago) the land of Men is called Midgård (the gods lived in Asgård and the giants (similar to trolls or orcs I believe) lived in Udgård). The Danish word for Middle-earth is 'Midgård' (which means 'world in the middle' - not directly, but it's the best translation) Asgård means 'world of the As'es (one god = one as) Udgård means 'the world outside' or something like that. Could Tolkien in some way have been inspired by that? __________________ We're all following a strange melody We're all summoned by a tune We're following the piper And we dance beneath the moon

06-12-2002, 08:47 AM	#15
The Silver-shod Muse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The shoulder of a poet, TX Posts: 388	Yes, Meleph, there is a remarkable resemblance there. After all, didn't Tolkien spend years studying ancient Norse legends and mythology? Somebody said that Ireland/England would have been too small to hold all ME's activity. Here's a test: It took the Nine Walkers less than a year to walk and ride from the Shire to Mordor and Minas Tirith and back. How long would it take to walk south to the bottom of Ireland and back again? You must excuse my distorted sense of distance. After all, I'm from Texas; everything's bigger here. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: The Silver-shod Muse ] __________________ "'You," he said, "tell her all. What good came to you? Do you rejoice that Maleldil became a man? Tell her of your joys, and of what profit you had when you made Maleldil and death acquainted.'" -Perelandra, by C.S. Lewis

06-12-2002, 09:12 AM	#16
greyhavener Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: austin Posts: 169	Didn't Tolkien say he wanted to create a mythology for England? Perhaps this was an England before the Valar did some rearranging of mountains and put a sea between England and Ireland. Just conjecture. __________________ Do justly, love mercy, walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8

06-17-2002, 06:51 AM	#17
Lila Bramble Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Willowbottom, the Shire Posts: 89	Yes, Scotland is always possible, as is Viking places. It was said Tolkien was basing it on his hometown in England, I was just thinking how similar Ireland is to the Middle-Earth. Well, part of Middle-Earth as in the western realms. But, as in Middle-Earth is in olden times, maybe Ireland and England were connected. The Shire could possibly be part of Ireland, even if Tolkien meant it or not, it is quite probable. __________________ "So I suck at life. Don't hate me for it!" -Myself "I think a person should run only if he's being chased." -Casey (Elijah Wood) from the Faculty (Just saw it for the fifth time!) ~Ja Ne and Peace to All~ Lila Bramble

06-17-2002, 07:29 AM	#18
Aldagrim Proudfoot Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hobbiton Posts: 328	That makes sense. After all, It would have had to change shape to be what it is now. __________________ I do not suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it!

06-17-2002, 03:09 PM	#19
Luthien_ Tinuviel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2002 Location: A very lovely tree-hut in the Chunnel. Posts: 804	Tolkien studied Norse mythology, so Tolkien experts say he got Middle-Earth from Mittengeard. Also I've read some Norse mythology lately, and I would say that Tolkien was somewhat inspired by it, as he uses certain elements and ideas from it in his writing. __________________ I am a nineteen-year-old nomad photographer who owns a lemonade stand. You know what? I love Mip.