The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > Novices and Newcomers
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-14-2014, 05:36 PM   #41
Morthoron
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
 
Morthoron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,244
Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonraker View Post
This is Middle Earth, not the UK or any other civilised nation with laws to protect farmers and the public alike.
I would suggest reading further regarding Tolkien's intentions for the Shire. The Shire, according to Tolkien, was indeed England, or at least the long gone England of his youth. There is every reason to believe that Farmer Maggot was a cantankerous but wise rustic fellow that Tolkien met during his time in Oxfordshire (and perhaps chased him out of his fields -- something that occurred to me once in a farmer's cornfield). Other Hobbits were certainly modeled after folks Tolkien knew or were at least architypical of rustics Tolkien recalled from his youth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonraker View Post
I believe I said I was not saying Middle Earth had a widespread legal system with lawyers. Rohan and Gondor did have formal laws, however. And stealing the One Ring is a major crime, in any world. That is a different thread, little point trying to merge it with Maggot and his dogs.
There is no textual evidence that there were any "lawyers" in either Rohan or Gondor. However, and quite amusingly, there is every indication that Messrs. Grubb, Grubb and Burrowes, the firm that oversaw Bilbo Baggins' estate auction, were indeed attorneys-at-law. The Shire was quite anachronistic with its post office, wills and umbrellas.
__________________
Please visit my newly resurrected blog...The Dark Elf File...a slightly skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
Morthoron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2014, 08:55 PM   #42
Nerwen
Wisest of the Noldor
 
Nerwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ
Posts: 6,199
Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Send a message via Skype™ to Nerwen
Pipe

Let's break this down a bit.

1. "Supernatural". Look Moonraker, you are free to use words in the way you prefer, but please don't "correct" me for not following suit. I employed the word in accordance with both the dictionary and common usage, and will continue to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the Concise Oxford Dictionary
supernatural adj. attributed to or thought to reveal some force above the laws of nature; magical, occult, mystical.
As you see, it's a very broad term. In the specific context of Middle-earth, I'd have far more reservations about using it to describe, say, Elven "magic" than anything to do with Sauron or his minions.

1. a. What's the point of this, anyway? Earlier you were arguing that Farmer Maggot was being very foolish in even considering his dogs could handle such a formidable supernatural being. Now apparently Khamul's just some old bloke in a sheet, and Maggot's at fault for overreacting. I mean come on, at least make up your mind!
__________________
"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo.
Nerwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2014, 02:40 AM   #43
Moonraker
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 112
Moonraker has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerwen View Post
Let's break this down a bit.

1. "Supernatural". Look Moonraker, you are free to use words in the way you prefer, but please don't "correct" me for not following suit. I employed the word in accordance with both the dictionary and common usage, and will continue to do so.


As you see, it's a very broad term. In the specific context of Middle-earth, I'd have far more reservations about using it to describe, say, Elven "magic" than anything to do with Sauron or his minions.

1. a. What's the point of this, anyway? Earlier you were arguing that Farmer Maggot was being very foolish in even considering his dogs could handle such a formidable supernatural being. Now apparently Khamul's just some old bloke in a sheet, and Maggot's at fault for overreacting. I mean come on, at least make up your mind!
The power of the Nazgul is sourced from a supernatural power, Sauron. Without his input the Nazgul would have been as powerful as the Old Took when he met Maggot. They are not all independently supernatural, unless they practised sorcery from their pre-Nazgul days.

Last edited by Moonraker; 08-15-2014 at 02:46 AM.
Moonraker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2014, 06:57 AM   #44
Nerwen
Wisest of the Noldor
 
Nerwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ
Posts: 6,199
Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Send a message via Skype™ to Nerwen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonraker View Post
The power of the Nazgul is sourced from a supernatural power, Sauron. Without his input the Nazgul would have been as powerful as the Old Took when he met Maggot. They are not all independently supernatural, unless they practised sorcery from their pre-Nazgul days.
Once again: this is your personal way of using the word; it is not mine and I am not obliged to conform to your wishes.

Besides which, it's a side issue.
__________________
"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo.
Nerwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2014, 06:13 PM   #45
Nerwen
Wisest of the Noldor
 
Nerwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ
Posts: 6,199
Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Send a message via Skype™ to Nerwen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonraker View Post
It is never a case of being right or wrong, more so what you learn from the different arguments for and against, if presented in a courteous and respectful manner to begin with, and not resort to swipes.
Of course, which is why you could have said, "Well, personally I prefer to use "supernatural" only to mean such-and-such, but whatever", and just moved on to address my, you know, actual points.

As for "resorting to swipes"- have I done this? It hasn't been my intention,
__________________
"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo.
Nerwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2014, 06:25 PM   #46
The Barrow-Wight
Night In Wight Satin
 
The Barrow-Wight's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 4,047
The Barrow-Wight is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Eye

Everyone,

Alright, the conversation has gone off topic (probably a long time ago, really) and is now about HOW we are discussing rather than what we are discussing. When you start deconstructing previous posts line by line without adding anything to the actual topic, you are doing it wrong. Let's stop being argumentative, defensive and offensive.
__________________
The Barrow-Wight
The Barrow-Wight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2014, 06:52 PM   #47
Moonraker
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 112
Moonraker has just left Hobbiton.
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Farmer_Maggot

The above link makes an interesting read on how Tolkien previously attempted to portray Maggot and his dogs when Frodo visited his farm. Not sure just how accurate the source is, however.
Moonraker is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:31 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.