I don't believe this

[Magician of Nathar]

Rrrriight.... Evil? Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter? Who on Earth came up with the idea? They are fictions, stories to "cheat thee of a smile, or charm thee to a tear" according to old verse. So Tolkein wrote about wizards and hobbits, and Rowling researched black magic for her books, so what? There are nothing wrong with that, they are just a form of entertainment. People sometimes take the religious aspect of things a little too serious. They would even link up fictions with Satan (I haven't figured out what's wrong with him anyway.) Those voices are very disturbing, methinks. They add conflict to what was a perfect harmony. Sometimes I really think religion is the source of all evil. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[Iarwain]

of course you aren't offending anyone, Theodric! Welcome to the downs, by the way, and never be afraid to share your opinions. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] It's quite funny that the Tolkien/Rowling debate has come up again. If I had taken interst earlier, I might have contributed a bit more, but I suppose I can still gift the discussion with my prescense (how pompous did that sound).

Theodric, we must remember that there is also a similiar book for the (in my mind) infamously brain-frying show The Simpsons. And the fact that Tolkien's works have extreme allegorical potential, compared to Rowling's books, which work on a very different level.

Iarwain

[Annalaliath]

Did you not read the other replies? Personally I like your opinion. Just because they are yours and not someone ease’s. I tend to share the same opinions with my grandmother so that is why she pops up so much, and by the way welcome to the downs. Life is full of opinions some are right and some are wrong. You can't always see the difference and sometimes you can. Like Denther and Melea's burning of Rivendell in the Elrond's guest book, some can't see the humor in that( I won't give names) while other's can. I have a friend who thinks he is ulgier than the hind end of an orc. I personally think he is growing up wonderfully, but he still won't listen. This is all opnion.

This guy who ever he is; is reading too much into things. He has some misconstrued opinions of many things, especially the Christian faith. But I think that he will not be changed. But like I said this is a good place for expressing your opinions. Check out my posts here, you will see what I mean.

[ June 07, 2003: Message edited by: Annalaliath ]

[Bekah]

I'm not going to agree or disagree- I just wanted to say that you didn't add a "I think" or "in my opinion" so you are also putting out your opinion as the truth. I am, of course, not saying you're doing what this guy's doing- yours is just an opinion, his is something that it seems he thinks should be forced on everybody- but it's a bit ironic. No offence please, Bekah, I don't mean anything bad about you

Yes, sorry, I meant to say that it is my opinion. It is what I believe to be the truth.

I am a Christian, teach Sunday School, read the bible and send my daughter to a Christian school. I also encouraged her to read both LotR as well as HP and other fantasy writings.

Ah, but according to Mr. Yusko, you are a therefore a hell-bound person, sundered from God's love. And this is what really infuriates me. Jesus died for our sins, and unless we reject his love, [I believe, as do most Christians, I think - this little note is for GOTO's benefit, btw] we cannot be sundered from God. He loves us whatever we do, and whether we reject or accept him, though in the former case we grieve him greatly.

I decided against sending him anything of the sort. I'd only have been flamed by somebody like that.

I think he's got to the stage where no one can get through to him. Gollum's song is quite appropriate for him, only I suspect he doesn't realize that he is lost.

Also, this man seems to insinuate that those who let their children enjoy the occult are condemned to hell. I believe that every one's sin is their own. Guilt cannot be transmitted.

What about Adam's sin? Also, what the guy was saying was that if the parents encourage a sin, then they are guilty. I happen to disagree with this 'sin', though, as I do not believe it is a sin at all.

Forgot to mention, but I believe this argument has already been done in full. InklingElf's "Tolkien v.v. Rowling (NOT on Equal Grounds)" It was a great thread, very much worth reading, but dead all the same.

Here I have to say that I helped Inkling Elf edit that particular essay. She, of course, did the actual writing and all, but I helped fix up the particular wording at a few places.

The main reason I quoted that, though, was that this thread was not started to argue over the differences between LOTR and HP, but to exclaim over the absurdity of claiming that they are sinful books. Perhaps there isn't much point in ranting over it, though.

If this whole thing is a joke, which I hope it is, his use of hyperbole is extremely clumsy. C- on that one.

His euphisms aren't all that great, either. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I don't think it's a joke. He seems to be a brainwashed fanatic.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They are ALL the same
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And because of that, he's doomed himself.

He's dooomed himself anyway, with his lack of logic. His argument has holes in it all over the place.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not to mention a twerp is as a twerp does.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That's a bit harsh. I think that the best arguments come not from attacking the person himself, but from contending his idea.

What do you think Alan has done, huh? Personally I'd have to agree that he's a bit of a twerp, but as you say, Yavanna - each to his own.

Is J.K. Rowling a Christian? No!

It makes me sick that people say HP books and LotR books are evil because, there is actual proof that LotR has biblical ties to it.

Don't believe me? LOOK THIS BOOK UP!

Finding God in The Lord of the Rings by Kurt Bruner and Jim Ware.

Read a few pages from that book and then come back and tell me that LotR is evil!!!!!

Woah there!! The book is indeed a good one. I appreciate it greatly.

But you are starting to sound like the guy who ranted at us about the sinfulness of LOTR and HP. It's not good. (Though you didn't offend me.)

Also, I was told from a reliable source that Rowling is of the Church of Scotland. So she at least professes to be a Christian. Whether she is or not I dare not say; only God can judge mankind truly. (Check out my sig.)

Lots of love and God bless you all. Feel free to PM me if you have any bones to pick with me about this.

~ Elentari II

[Annalaliath]

Did i mention that I am going to send him about an email a day from one of my three emial adresses.... I think that he will never read any of them but still it is interesting to see if he responds. Did I mention that mental torture brings me joy?

And I think that everyone has braught to light all that there is to say on this subject. Now we are going to argue the same points over and over.

Like I said before it is all just openions and intrepretaions. The lack of reaserch on his behalf is evedent and my bad spelling is a plauge upon humanity. If he is rioght then we are all going to hell. But then the God he worships is not the god he thinks He is. And if he is wrong(the most likly thing) then we are all okay, and the god of the Bible is the God of mercy , grace, and love. Onward... Maybe yes and Maybe no...

[Lyra Greenleaf]

Oh dear. I've found another problem with the guy's opinions. This is about rock music:

Its hard to believe. Effeminate men dressing up like women with the long hair, jewelry, make-up, and all the secular rock dress. On top of all this these people call themselves 'Christian'!!!

No-one can know for sure, of course, but every picture I've ever seen of Jesus he has LONG HAIR. And I find it very hard to believe that God ever issued an edict: men shalt not wear make-up. That's all societical and secular.

As for us women, we all need to get back to the kitchen as:

The philosophies and practices of the woman’s liberation movement are undermining and destroying our homes and families

And I do very much hope no-one else here is a Beatles fan. I'm doubly-damned. Sniff. No wait, I'm a female who wants a career. Make that triple.

Back to HP. This is about his scar:

See the Satanic lightning bolt. Yes, Harry Potter is part of the devil's plan.

The author helpfully put a little arrow on the picture of the book cover for anyone who couldn't see the scar. But seriously, it's a scar. And it was PUT THERE BY EVILNESS, any evil connections could be seen as springing from that. What would he say about Dumbledore's scar in the shape of the underground map. (I wonder what happened when they opened the Jubilee Line extension?)

Harry Pottie-ism

Sorry what?

OK, OK, not Tolkien related. My point is the man is clearly marching to his own tune, and forming his own little religion in which everyone but him is damned, and once damned has no chance of being saved- FORGIVENESS doesn't happen.

[ June 07, 2003: Message edited by: Lyra Greenleaf ]

[Niluial]

Lyra Greenleaf…. I could not agree more. I am sorry but Lyra Greenleafs reply has to be voted the best reply in ‘I don’t believe this’.

[Iarwain]

Whew! Just finished the article. Someone has a good deal of rage against a society that hasn't accepted him or conformed to his views. His argument might do well if he delivered a tirade on something a tad more familiar to him. As others have stated, God's love is unconditional. It will never be taken away. It is not up to shortsighted humans to decide who is hellbound and who is not. Has he seen inside our hearts, read our intentions, lived with our daily emotions and struggles? No. Rather than ranting on how everyone who reads fairy-stories is hellbound, he should publish articles on why Occultism is evil on a more basic level. Perhaps it would make him understand that these books in themselves are not evil at all, but rather are pleasant stories that can (unfortunately) be taken the wrong way by foolish children who believe that magic such as displayed in them is real and become held by something that is utterly nonexistant.


Iarwain

P.S. All of this can be countered easily by caring for your children and teaching them how to treat material like this in a way that will not lead to their utter demise.

[ June 07, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[Theoric Windcaller]

Hey guys. Look, in this topic don't even mention my posts or quote anything from them. Pretend I never even looked at this argument. Stop making quotes to my post please. I've been getting PMs about it so forget I even said anything.

[ June 07, 2003: Message edited by: Theoric Windcaller ]

[The Barrow-Wight]

This topic has been brought to my attention and it is plain that this debate is outside the realm of Middle-earth and Tolkien. I'm closing it and asking everyone to get back to Tolkien.

[THE Ka]

This sounds like another person, late at night, who hasn't slept in a good week, writing about something they heard from television.

The most foolish argument I've heard is the claim that the writer of Lord of the Rings is a Christian therefore his occult books are OK to read. Let's answer that dumb argument right away! NO he is not a Christian! The man is a lost hellbound Roman Catholic who loved spells, witchcraft, wizardy, and other forms of the occult.

This quote, was obvious in pointing that this, is yet another hate-targeted essay, and a waste of cyber-space. Clearly, just from scanning it, this person really needs to read their bible again to find that it is not literal in every meaning, and try sampling a few of the discussions that take place in the Lord of The Rings Triology, most of which have a basis in religion similar to the writer. If I recall, does the bible say something of the 'evils' of gossip?

--------------------------------------------------------
Okay, I don't want to write anymore about this. Ignorance saddens me so.

~ Ka

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Hmmm, this old topic was closed by the Barrow-Wight and must have accidentally been reopened during our move last year. I'm closing it again.