Defending Rohan during the battle of the Pennor Fields

[Tuor in Gondolin]

OOPS! Of course, the title should say the PELENNOR Fields. Can't figure out how to edit the title.

In another thread Would Saruman Have been a Reliable Ally the subject of Rohan defenses after Theoden led his 6,000 to Minas Tirith.

Orogonally posted by William Cloud Hicklin
Actually I did mean setting out for Minas Tirith. Theoden could leave footmen as well as the old and young to guard the two fastnesses of Dunharrow and the Hornburg, but Edoras was left open; as Treebeard says (later), but for the Ents Eomer would have had no Golden Hall to return to.

Of course, there were apparently some 4000 Riders (less casualties, which would have been appreciable by then) who didn't make it to the Muster in time; these however would have been mere supplements to the garrisons

I'd be a bit more charitable on the forces left. Say 4,000+ with some 1st class fighters but the majority old, young, disabled, etc. But the women of the Rohirrim would fight well (not just Eowyn as an example, also recall how the women of the Wainriders held off attackers when they defended their encampments in an earlier battle, about 1,000 years earlier, in Rhovannion).

So how might an attack by Sauron's forces have been countered without immediate ent help? One possibility, split the bulk (3,000 or so of available forces) between the Golden Hall and Helm's Deep. As many as possible of civilians put in the areas between the Hall and Dunharrow, might be defended for a while. A long march with extended lines of supply and commuication would be necessary by sauron's lads to simultaneously attack Helm's Deep (and there would be a limited time (2 weeks or so?) to do so before some relief might come from Minas Tirith. 500-1,000 of the rest of the defenders could be used as a sort of horse infantry (using second or third tier quality horses) to loom around the northern frings of Sauron forces which would be attacking fortresses near the White Mountains. The Golden Hall and many dwellings outside, and some people, would be destroyed but many might be saved. I think Theoden implied some variant of his people, under Eowyn's guidance, surviving in such a way. As for structures destroyed, after World War II places in London like the House of Commons (and much of St. Paul's) were repaired/replaced). Why not do so with Edoras? Is such a plan viable? Any alternate suggestions to deal with threats sans ents?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

OOPS! Of course, the title should say the PELENNOR Fields. Can't figure out how to edit the title.

Try clicking Edit-->Advanced-->Edit the title. That works for regular posit, and it might for thread titles.

As for the question, I have no idea. I'm not a very numbers kind of person in terms of dates, distances, and masses. I tend to take these things less literally and more as enhancements of the emotion of the story, so to me it doesn't make any difference how many defenders Edoras had - if it weren't for the friendship the Ents developed with the people, Rohan would have been demolished, and there would have been a Scouring of the Riddermark before Saruman even got to the Shire. And to add the personal aspect of those who are more closely involved with the land - devastation for those who survived the War but found their homes destroyed, perhaps guilt and difficult situation of the leaders (Eomer) for saving another country but failing to save Rohan, a response from Gondor (you saved us, we help you)... This is what comes to my mind when I read that passage. I'm clueless about the technicalities and realism of how things worked out.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Edoras was indefensible. The stronghold for Eastern Rohan was at Dunharrow- where even a small force could hold off an army indefinitely, given sufficient provisions.

But trying to maintain a line of communications across the open plains, in the face of a vast Orc-army? Suicide; a pointless sacrifice of manpower. With the halt/lame/old/boy/women forces at hand, you need every force-multiplier (i.e. walls and cliffs) you can get.

Some communications (message, not logistical) could be maintained between Helm's Deep and DH vis the mountain-paths (that's still about 4 days). But then Helm's Deep wouldn't be under much immediate threat, Saruman and the Dunlendings having been neutralized.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Thanks for ideas on editing titles. I'll give it a try.

As for defending the Mark. One thing to keep in mind, the forces that would have been sent by Sauron would have been second line. I believe the big blocking force was across from Cair Andros, to hold off the Rohirrim. And the orcish irregulars would have been strung out themselves. You'd need a JRRT to work out the details of movement, forces, etc.

One interesting scenario for the Dunharrow refugees and defenders (whose total would be in the thousands): It's very defensible (PJ got that right geographically in the LoTR movies) but if they were threatened with being overwhelmed they could in desperation try The Paths of the Dead. After all wouldn't the Army of the Dead have been drawn off by Aragorn to South Gondor? After leaving Aragorn it's possible they finally really died and so it was just a long, dark passage to be traversed by Rohan refugees and perhaps 1-2,000 soldiers. And should the Dead still be able, and interested in opposing passage (which seems unlikely from Aragorn's dismissal of them and their relief at ending their [undead? fate), a large group of Rohan people fleeing for their lives would have been a different order of magnitude from one tipsy lord or even a small group of Rangers.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Although it's not found anywhere in published texts that I recall, the orc-army that invaded Rohan was in fact the one which had attacked Lorien and been repulsed, so it turned southwards over the Limlight instead. I suppose one could speculate that an army based on Dol Guldur was "second-line" compared to those of Mordor.

[tom the eldest]

Communication is probably not a problem,because the rider of rohan is very fast,and the could possibly outrun sauron's warg and use different path from sauron'armies.and rohan may holed up in hornburg,flee to dunharrow,or go straight to isengard where the ent will protect them.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

Communication is probably not a problem,because the rider of rohan is very fast,and the could possibly outrun sauron's warg and use different path from sauron'armies.and rohan may holed up in hornburg,flee to dunharrow,or go straight to isengard where the ent will protect them.

If the city is beseiged, you have to get around the enemy troops. Even if there's no siege, but just orcs all over the surrounding land (at a distance), it's nearly impossible for a rider to get through. He could outride one orc on a warg, or even one group of orcs, but he can't ride through an army. The goal is not only to get out of one city, but also into another, and they are very far away. Lots of orc camps to pass on the way. Speed or no, it's like playing tag with everyone around you being "it".

[Belegorn]

There may be spies who are made use of. I'm not sure how much they are used in M-E but I'd think they would definitely be made use of since it's really just a guessing game in war or battle otherwise. Spies are a must. I'd think the Elves would be best at it especially so since they could actually use their abilities to really blend into the enemy. Although they could be found out as Sauron did when he was being careful of spies with Felagund. There might be converted spies within the enemy camp as well that they could send messages through.

[tom the eldest]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

There may be spies who are made use of. I'm not sure how much they are used in M-E but I'd think they would definitely be made use of since it's really just a guessing game in war or battle otherwise. Spies are a must. I'd think the Elves would be best at it especially so since they could actually use their abilities to really blend into the enemy. Although they could be found out as Sauron did when he was being careful of spies with Felagund. There might be converted spies within the enemy camp as well that they could send messages through.

I agree with the spy idea.maybe some rohan men being "makeuped" to be similar to a dunlending.then they could pretend to be a spy for saurons's army.that way,no one would suspect the double agent.