The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Prev Previous Post   Next Post Next
Old 04-05-2002, 11:46 PM   #1
Mhoram
Dead and Loving It
 
Mhoram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars.
Posts: 363
Mhoram has just left Hobbiton.
Sting A problem with "Laws and Customs"

Quote:
In "Laws and Customs among the Eldar" Tolkien wrote that Elven children resembled mortal children for the first few years of their lives, but that by the time mortal children reached their full stature the Elven children still looked like they were about seven years old. This essay establishes that Elven children matured at a much slower rate than mortal children, and reached adulthood no earlier than their fiftieth year (though sometimes they continued growing until their one hundredth year).

Furthermore, "Laws and Customs" says that most of the Eldar married soon after their fiftieth year, and they would (in times of peace, at least) soon begin bearing children. But the Elves spaced their children some years apart. This practice allowed the parents to spend several years focusing on each child's needs.

And we can be sure (because of his comparison between Elven children and mortal children) that Tolkien was anachronistically speaking in terms of Years of the Sun, not Years of the Trees. This is important to understand because "Annals of Aman", which provides a calendar system for dating events, is given in Years of the Trees. Morgoth's Ring provides us with two conversion rates for equating Years of the Trees with Years of the Sun.

I prefer to use the older ratio of 9.58 Years of the Sun to 1 Year of the Trees because the later ratio of 144 Years of the Sun to 1 Year of the Trees is very inconsistent with many texts. The fact that it coincides with the Yen described in the appendices to The Lord of the Rings probably means only that Tolkien wasn't considering the other texts, then unpublished, because he was in the process of revising the entire (unpublished) mythology.

Finally, "Laws and Customs" also says:

The Eldar wedded for the most part in their youth and soon after their fiftieth year. They had few children, but these were very dear to them. Their families, or houses, were held together by love and a deep feeling for kinship in mind and body; and the children needed little governing or teaching. There were seldom more than four children in any house, and the number grew less as ages passed; but even in days of old, while the Eldar were still few and eager to increase their kind, Feanor was renowned as the father of seven sons, and the histories record none that surpassed him.

-from an article by Michael Martinez entitled "Elves by the numbers" http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/54681
I agree with everything Michael says here and i'm quoting it to help me relate a problem I see with "Laws and Customs." The thing is, none of the recorded 'Customs' we have seem to match up with what Tolkien tells us about Elven marriage and childbirth. Let me show you what I mean.

Quote:
Furthermore, "Laws and Customs" says that most of the Eldar married soon after their fiftieth year, and they would (in times of peace, at least) soon begin bearing children.
To examine this we have to review accounts of marriages and the bearing of children that take place during times peace. There are only three records that fit this model; The sons of Finwe: Feanor, Fingolfin, Finarfin.

Feanor is born in 1169 YT. He weds Nerdanel in an unknown year but has seven children before 1492 YT. [323 Years of the Trees (3095 Years of the Sun) within which to have these children.]

Fingolfin is born in 1190 YT. He weds Anaire in an unknown year and has three children before 1492 YT. [302 Years of the Trees (2894 Years of the Sun) within which to have these children.] His first child, Fingon, was born when Fingolfin was 90 YT of age or about 900 YS.

Finarfin is born in 1230 YT. He weds Earwen in 1280 YT and has five children before 1492 YT. [262 Years of the Trees (2510 Years of the Sun) within which to have these children.] His first child, Finrod, was born when he was 70 YT of age or about 700 YS.

<PRE>
Feanor = Nerdanel
__________________________________|_______________ ___________________
| | | | | | |
Maedhros Maglor Celegorm Curufin Caranthir Amrod Amras


Fingolfin = Anaire
______________|_____________
| | |
Fingon Turgon Aredhel
1280 1300 1362

Finarfin = Earwen
_______________________|______________________
| | | | |
Finrod Orodreth Angrod Aegnor Galadriel
1300 1362

</PRE>

As you can see, the youngest age of marriage and bearing of children is Finarfin at 70 Years of the Trees. Fingolfin is 90 YT and Feanor is probally somewhere around that area. This is close enough to what "Laws and Customs" tells us, but the problem is, this is all in the reckoning of Years of Trees!

Quote:
And we can be sure (because of his comparison between Elven children and mortal children) that Tolkien was anachronistically speaking in terms of Years of the Sun, not Years of the Trees.
-Micheal Martinez

Micheal is refering to this exact quote from Tolkien:
Quote:
This same watcher might indeed have wondered at the small
limbs and stature of these children, judging their age by their
skill in words and grace in motion. For at the end of the third
year mortal children began to outstrip the Elves, hastening on to
a full stature while the Elves lingered in the first spring of
childhood. Children of Men might reach their full height while
Eldar of the same age were still in body like to mortals of no
more than seven years.(2) Not until the fiftieth year did the Eldar
attain the stature and shape in which their lives would after-
wards endure, and for some a hundred years would pass before
they were full-grown.]
-Tolkien

And it is in the very next sentence/paragraph Tolkien says:
Quote:
The Eldar wedded for the most part in their youth and soon after their fiftieth year. They had few children, but these were very dear to them.
-Tolkien
Surely, only a sentence later, Tolkien is still speaking in terms of Years of the Sun. And if so, as I said, "Laws and Customs" is nowhere close to the actual records we have to compare it with. What is the solution to this seeming conflict?

[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: Mhoram ]
Mhoram is offline   Reply With Quote
 


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:55 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.