TIG XCIV– WHere the Stars Are Strange (Game thread)

[Thinlómien]

Oops, thanks to Greenie next to me on the sofa, I just realised there's just one more hour until the DL. I'll try to finish my analysis but also keep an eye on the current situation. Seems pretty sure either Legate or Shasta's going to die toDay and I'm not sure how I feel about it... maybe it will at least clarify stuff.

edit: xed with embarrassed Greenie and the Empress's ghost

[Pomegranate]

And Pitch: Looking back, you said YesterDay that you thought Legate's reaction on Steve's reveal made him in your eyes more trustworthy than not. Why did you not bring that up anymore today, when people started seriously doubting Legate?

x/ed with Lommy

[Eönwë]

Ok, Legate and Shasta, the great debate of toDay

So if I'm not mistaken, their main bit of clasing starts toDay. In his first post, Shasta completely attacks Legate, and by his next post (3 minutes later), he is already saying that:

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

some things Legate have said have been so far off the mark and unlike how I know Legate to act that it's basically Nog vol. II to my eyes at the moment.

(That is to say, I thought Nog was suspicious for defending G55's outburst, in total counter to how he would normally act, and now Legate, normally quite sensible, has been acting very crazy.)

So basically, he starts the Day off by attacking Legate strongly. Also he gives it exactly two hours before he posts, so he could have easily written the first post in that time, but exactly two hours? Don't know whether that's enough to call it suspicious, but it could be a calculating wolf trying to make it look like he didn't write it at Night (i.e. avoiding the whole thing Nog tried to call G55 out on about being certain of living the next Day) , though I don't think Shasta would be that obvious. But the point is that he starts the Day with what could very well be a premeditated attack on Legate.

Then he claims that an innocent-looking (Acoording to him) post from Legate makes him actually look more guilty:

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

The main reason it caught my eye, actually, is how Legate can post well-thought-out points like this and at the same time be as wildly off-kilter as he has been? My overall conclusion on this is while the point makes him look slightly better, the dichotomy makes him look worse.

To which Legate responds:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Isn't it rather the sign of an innocent to have conflicting opinions about something? I mean, innocents, in contrary to some others, have no information whom to trust. I suspected Eönwë before, but I tried to post with the best intentions in mind, just as now. If you are following a certain pattern you set for yourself like a Wolf (e.g. "I will suspect person X, then I switch to person Y, then I will try to make the village lynch Z"), you usually post very "consistently" in the sense that all the time, the main intention sort of "behind" your behavior can be tracked as: "Yes, he wanted to lynch X." With innocent, the intention behind all the behavior should not be "He wanted to lynch X or Y", but "He wanted to do what was the best for the village from his current perspective." That's what I am doing. That's what I also often get suspected for.

Now, I don't know, but this would be quite a risky wolf-on-wolf, considering that Shasta's essentially forcing Legate to explain why his behaviour isn't wolfy, and bringing up the idea that Legate could be faking suddenly. Legate's response could be either, since he could either be just talking about his experience, or be defending his current pretending-to-be-an-ordo style. And if the latter option is the case, considering Shasta as a wolf as well might be interesting in the sense that Shasta is calling out Legate on his bad disguise, or even giving Legate a chance to defend himself while making Shasta look good in the future because he's accusing him. Risky, though. Of course, they could just both be Ordos arguing over playing styles.

Legate's same post starts with this:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Okay - on general evaluation of what's happened toDay, I am growing steadily more suspicious of Shasta. It's not about his way of arguing, which is faulty in many ways (like many have already mentioned - e.g. the "Eonwe was not suspected yesterDay enough..." I can vouch for myself that I indeed had suspected him, and I recall there were many others) - that does not necessarily say anything about guilt; but mostly the fact that he had pushed for a second lynch going at the same point yesterDay with Steve, therefore threatening to threaten him (to make a double lynch).

To which Shasta responds with:

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

I already pointed out how much rubbish this point is. In fact, since I voted Inzil, I'd be very interested to hear how I supposedly threatened Eonwe yesterday.

I don't want to think I'm basically OMGUSing Legate here - I might be, certainly, but he's seemed completely (not a bit, not some, pretty much completely) off to me since the beginning.

----Ok, so here I will make a note to myself and others reading this to see what Shasta said about Legate before toDay, and vice versa. Now, onwards.


Then Legate responds:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Maybe I did not word it very well this time - but you were offering ground for double-lynch in any case, be the other subject Eonwe or Zil. In any case, it would still not be good for the village - only leave the uncertainity for the future. And also (I don't know how exactly was the voting around that time you were proposing that, or when you voted), if there were still some Wolves left to vote after you, with enough numbers, they could still do a double-lynch in that way. That's of course probably unlikely, but the general point is that splitting the vote (especially for somebody completely random) was not exactly helpful in that situation.

And to the last bit of Shasta's previous post:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

How nice. I, on the other hand, thought initially you were pretty good.

To which Shasta responds:

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Wrong. I never said I wanted to lynch Eonwe, in fact I never mentioned him in the slightest. Why would I want to lynch the Seer, in any case? Yes, I mentioned that a double lynch of Inzil and Nog might be a good idea, after someone mentioned it (I'd originally forgotten about double lynches at all), but how would that have "left uncertainty"? Nog would have been just as dead. Your other point is still not very good - I already gave you the numbers to prove that even if it had been possible for the wolves to double-lynch Eonwe, they all would have been revealed after that and the game would be over! See, Legate, you keep trying to make this into a reason that I'm suspicious and it's just not working. That's what I mean about how completely off you are. I didn't mean to insult you or anything, if that's what you thought (as your last comment leads me to believe.)

I will just point out that I was the one who originally mention double lynching, but only because I was arguing against it because that's what I thought Shasta was after yesterDay. Make of the rest what you will.

Then:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Not taking it as insult, never mind then. But okay, then tell me clearly: first you did not plan to make it double-lynch, then you did, so can you go over it once again - what exactly had you intended? Did you intend to make a double-lynch (of Zil and Nog), then? Why exactly, i.e. what good would it be? Also, how did you hope to achieve that? What if one got one more vote than the other? What would you think if only Nog was lynched? What would you think if only Zil was lynched? Had you considered those two possibilities at all? Answering shortly, briefly in points is fine, if I can ask you for that...

And anyway, yes, I am willing to see also something more - something else - from you to make me evaluate you better. E.g. if you list briefly whom do you currently suspect and why... or whom do you trust the most and why...

So Legate ignores the reality and shapes it into his own in order to attack Shasta,since it's pretty clear what Shasta was planning- just to lynch Zil. Of course, that's pretty bad in itself, but misrepresenting it... But maybe if they're both wovles Legate's just giving Shasta a chance to explain himself again, which he does. In a lot of detail:

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

I sense the beginnings of a witchhunt, but fine, I'll answer.

I had originally forgotten about the fact that we could double lynch - I wanted Zil gone over Nog because I felt both were bad for the innocents, but killing Inzil would have dropped the nightkills from two to one (I still thought the Acolyte was going to kill the next night.) Then, after I voted, the idea of a double lynch was mentioned, which I thought was a fine idea - kill both with one lynch.

Sidenote, Legate - it was not going to be very easy to make a double-lynch all by my lonesome, as you're implying. I knew Nog had four or five votes by then and I knew no one else had voted Inzil, but I figured it was worth a shot, and if I didn't manage it then Nog would be lynched anyway and that'd be one baddie down.

Had it been possible, yes. Once Lommy voted right after me, though, I didn't really think it was possible. Still, since there wasn't a vote tally up and I wasn't sure how many more votes were coming in, I felt like there was still a chance and I urged people to consider it.

Seriously? We'd be getting rid of a wolf and the Acolyte, who I thought (and still think) was dangerous.

If you're asking me this, then you're implying there wasn't a way to achieve that, which means your point about me endangering Eonwe, is, like I said, pretty leaky. That said, I'll answer - it would have required the cooperation of the people after me to vote; like I said, once Lommy voted I figured the chances were slim, but there was no harm in trying.

What about it? In my view, either way we were getting rid of someone who was a danger to the village. If Nog was lynched, fine - we'd gotten rid of a wolf. If Zil went instead, that was fine too - that'd be the end of the Acolyte and we could lynch Nog the next day; if Eonwe had managed to find another wolf with his dream, we could just double-lynch them, so we weren't even losing any time.

Who do I suspect? You, currently. Boro, because I think he was bussing Nog. Inzil I still suspect of Acolyte-ism, but I don't think he's a wolf, unless his "lynch me instead of Eonwe" yesterday was just a very clever wolf-front. I still have some suspicions of Lommy as well.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Wait a second and stop presuming. I was asking exactly and only what I had asked - because it is NOT easy to achieve a double-lynch. I assumed there WAS a way to achieve that according to you, otherwise you wouldn't have proposed it, obviously. Therefore, I wanted to hear about it.

These were only questions, and completely "freely" phrased - a mere civilized way to ask you about something. Yet you are answering with rather defensive and sort of jumpy way at some moments. In contrary to what you say, I have *no* intention to lynch you for the sake of itself. But at least on first sight, I can't help to think you are making stuff up, or clutching to some pre-made points of your own.

This in particular sounds rather fabricated. And the whole Acolyte thing of yours is just weird - I mean, if you are innocent, then I suggest checking whether you aren't simply paranoid. I understand it might be good to talk about the Acolyte if nobody seems to worry about it, but nowhere was written that Acolyte is evil. Nowhere was written that even if he was, he's killing every Night. (Yes, I know, no need to repeat your thoughts on the matter, I've read them several times already, just stating this for the sake of completion.) Nowhere was written that even if all that was so, Zil was the Acolyte. I.e.: Your idea - as you claim it was - of making a double-lynch, or lynching Zil over Nog, was based on the possibility that Zil was the Acolyte, on top of that evil Acolyte, on top of that that the Acolyte is killing people and therefore it is better to kill him than Nog. My motto is "never tell me the odds" and I am against all maths and all that, but seriously, the chance that even if you were right about the role that you would actually even lynch the real Acolyte was far lesser than that you would help the village to achieve something by lynching Nog. Also, if you indeed are innocent and interested in the good of the village - had it never occured to you that the game would be imbalanced like Angband if there was just another evil every-Night-killer? Even if he were to choose his side in the beginning, such a role would really be completely over the top.

I think we have (and you have also answered about it to others many times) been talking this over many times, so I think we can drop the subject, there is probably nothing much new to add anymore (unless, Shasta, you have something that you haven't said yet to comment on what I just said, of course). But it helped me to hear all your arguments in some clearer order, and the basic impression I have about you right now is that of being somewhat suspicious. Based on that if I compare the possibility that you sincerely were thinking the thing you are now telling us you were thinking, and the possibility that you were thinking something completely different and are just making this all up now that you had to answer about it to other people, I must say the other one sounds far more probable and logical. Of course, the question is then what did you really think in case what you are saying is fabricated - since I am not sure if, as a Wolf, you'd believe you could pull that off (saving Nog, that is, or evening the odds by double-lynching him in case Zil is innocent). Of course that's already second rather daring move you'd do in this game (after Day 1 Bom lynch), so if you believed you could pull that off again? Anyway, will be looking at what else you are going to post toDay.

While the first paragraph seems pretty reasonable (other than the "this is fabricated"), the second seems pretty bad. I mean, he's basically just saying that Shasta's lying about what he thought yesterDay based on things now, which is clearly not true when that is basically what Shasta said yesterDay. Whether he was lying or not then is another matter, but Legate seems to want to draw attention to this. I don't think this would happen if Legate were a wolf and Shasta an innocent, as he's be more careful (hopefully), and since I suspect Legate and it seems pretty likely he's going to die, it might just be Legate again trying to make Shasta seem attacked unjustly, so that when he dies, at least Shasta looks good. While before he was supporting him (or se he claims with the "I liked you earlier on"), now he knows that he has to throw Shasta as far away as possible from him in order to make him look good.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I would like to also take a look at other people, but the best would be to see somebody else post as well...

So now he's making it look like this fight was unintentional, but was it really? I mean, he's trying to play it down with this bit, and I don't like it when it's clearly taken up most of Legate's posts today.

Shasta's response:

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

"Defensive." "Jumpy." "Making stuff up." What did I tell you? Witchhunt. All me answering your questions did was give you more fodder for your witchhunt against me, because all you've mentioned are opinions that are designed to look like hard suspicions. Look at this -

And in regards to fabrication:

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Now, you say this sounds fabricated. Obviously there's nothing I can say to that, since it's not fabricated. But it gives you an easy way to continue to suspect me, doesn't it?

I'm going to skip over all the bit about the Acolyte because it's clear that, whether you're innocent or evil, we just flat are not going to agree where he's concerned.

and also:

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

This is just the same point, restated in order to make it look like you have a bigger argument against me than you already do. Also, I said basically the same thing earlier in the day when I replied to Pom, so there's further proof I didn't make it all up just now.

So again, Shasta is giving his proof again that he thought so yesterDay. So even though his points were bad, surely the fact that he thought them yesterDay make them better, right? Right? No.

Legate responds:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I was afraid you will say something like this, and therefore I am not talking anymore to you about this, because you are convinced I am evilly trying to frame you, which I said already last time I am not. So until you are willing to reevaluate and reconsiderate the possibility that it is not so, the debate makes no sense. If you have pre-determined opinions, you can hardly believe you are deciding objectively (or, as much "objectively" as one can). That is not asking you to stop suspecting me, by any means, but merely appeal to bring that to your attention that it might not be as you project - at least on the level of discussion. If you are innocent, I am warning you that you are having a tunnel vision in that I am writing everything with some evil intent. Your unwillingness to acknowledge this thus far (despite me telling this to you already before, only in different words) makes me only support my belief. And no, that is not predetermined answer (as you would most likely say based on how you've been reacting this far), but direct response based on this and only this reaction of yours. In case you are a Wolf (which I now believe), it of course makes perfect sense, because you try to disqualify suspicions against yourself (or pass it on me, if you can, even better).

For the first time, this in some ways makes Legate look actually genuine. Though of course that doesn't change anything between the two of them, and if they are both wolves it could be Legate warning Shasta that he's seemed to focused on this toDay.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

For further reference: If Shasta is really a Wolf, this makes Nate look rather good in my book. However, in case he wasn't, then if Nate was a Wolf instead, it would be very nasty way to connect two innocents.

Trying to implicate Pom if Shasta turns out to be evil, or just a genuine statement (doesn't make him not a wolf- in fact, it would be good for him to make some points that are good for the village.






So yeah, here ends their discussion (it just fizzles out there). Now, I was looking at it from the possibility of it being two wolves.

Innocent vsInnocent: Could very well be the case considering just their discussion, but since I already find Legate very suspicious based on other things, I'm inclined not to believe this.

Wolf-Legate vs Innocent-Shasta: Could have a case made for it because of the way Legate stretches his points, but on the other hand I don't think a wolvish Legate would be so uncareful. Shasta would just be defensive here, which seems about right. But the actual content of his posts and focus on the acolyte instead of the wolves seems bad. But that's not in the context of this discussion.

Innocent-Legate vs Wolf-Shasta: Could explain some of the less careful arguments against Shasta, but then why would he be so certain and just throw in as much as possible? And I find it hard to see Legate being innocent.

Wolf vs Wolf: I'm warming up towards this idea. I mean, they both seem suspicious for their own reasons, and this thing could potentially make either of them look very good if the other turns out to be a wolf. Very risky, but the rewards are great enough when they're both being so suspected.

edit: x-ed since Greenie's return

[A Little Green]

PITCHWIFE

Day 1

- acolyte speculation
- more acolyte speculation; comments on the Zil-Legate-issue in some length but says both look innocent; more or less frowns at Steve for doing the exact same thing he himself does in this post:

I don't like how people regurgitate it now and pile onto an easy suspicion (people meaning Rikae and Eönwë - especially Eönwë who complains about 'people' [no names given] 'bandwaggoning on that discussion' while doing it himself).

- thinks Gal's outburst against Rikae feels genuine; further commentary on the Legate-Zil-issue
- disagrees with Nog and tries to clear up some confusion between Lottie and Lommy about some post of Zil's:

No, what Lottie is saying is that Zil's post that followed hers didn't have anything to do with her poke/attack/whateveryouwannacallit, unlike Lommy had supposed.

FWIW, I was mildly annoyed by Lottie's failure to get my sarcasm, but I didn't think of it as an "attack" until Lommy, ironically, blew it up into one.

In which way would you say has Lottie acted like a bold wolf? I fail to see where she's done anything particularly bold yet.

Quite a lot of concentration on Lottie in this one.

- Disagrees with Eonwe about Zil-Legate-issue; defends Zil; votes Eonwe:

No, it doesn't, but poking someone again and again over a point so you can then complain that he's "reiterating his side" and starting a pointless discussion doesn't look particularly innocent either. OK, Legate did the poking and you the complaining, but you're using the controversy between them to paint Zil as suspicious by blaming the whole controversy on him, while it took two to keep it going. If you think this is misrepresenting you, so be it, but it's the best I have toDay.

++ Eönwë

In other news, I'm not happy with Bom's Nilp-vote, quite happy with Lottie's rant defending herself against Nog, a little puzzled by this sudden Lommywagon, and too pressed for time to make up my mind about the rest. Á vala Melkor!

Day 2

Three of us dead already, and the hunter among them? Blargh.

I always mistrust comments like this; just doesn't look genuine to me.

- complains about Bom-lynch and accuses Nog and Legate (and Lommy) of hypocrisy
- finds Rikae's hunter hint of ”logical” and ”made himself a target”; thinks Inzil was Rikae's likeliest pick and therefore probably innocent; confused about wabbits and coyotes
- says it matters whether the Bomwagon was initiated by Nog or Shasta
- further comments on Nog and Legate's hypocrisy re. Bom, is willing to excuse Lommy because she was under threat of lynching
- turns from Nog to Eonwe:

Eönwë's analysis of evil!Nogrod as the orchestrator of the Bomwagon would be a lot more convincing if he hadn't voted Bom himself, dropping all his prior suspicions; pointing the finger at Nog now and saying "He made me do it!" is a bit rich, isn't it? I was rather suspicious of Nog myself early in the Day, but this actually makes me doubt it.

- argues with Nog a bit:

Try to make up your mind whether I'm being "wise with hindsight", as you said earlier, or had wolvish knowledge in advance, will you? And if you think the latter, then say it instead of just throwing insinuating coughs my way.

- further disagrees with Nog about hunter hints
- reaction to Eonwe's reveal:

Oops, that changes things quite a bit. I'm trusting Eönwë's dream - in part because it explains the single-minded, aggressive way he's gone after Nog toDay, but mostly because it would be suicide for him if Nog turned out innocent, and I know he's too clever for that.

That said, I don't see Legate's initial reluctance to fall out of his chair trusting Eönwë as suspicious, but rather a point in his favour. Has everybody forgotten that for all we know, the Acolyte may get dreams as well and, whether xe works with the wolves or on their own, is by all evidence not on our side?

That's not saying Eönwë can't be our genuine seer, of course, but the possibility that he's something else should at least be considered - unless of course you know he's not the Acolyte; which makes me have worrisome thoughts about Zil's eagerness to accept his reveal.

But whatever Eönwë is, it doesn't change the fact that he'd be mad to claim a false dream. Therefore, for toDay:

++Nog

Day 3

- tries to make Inzil see that it's understandable that people see him as the acolyte; dislikes Shasta's idea of killing the suspected acolyte Zil
- disagrees with Shasta about whether Eonwe was under sufficient suspicion for his reveal to be justifiable (being of the opinion that the reveal was reasonable in that situation)
- says it looks like Legate is trying to deflect suspicion of himself onto Shasta
- says Sally is being reasonable but playing with the acolyte role
- reaction to Inzil's innocence:

Thank you, that simplifies things.

But tell me one thing: if you already dreamed Nog on Night 1 and knew from the beginning that he was a wolf, why on Earth did you join his and Shasta's "lynch Bom" initiative?

I fully understand that you didn't attack him on Day 1, but to actually vote with a known wolf against an unknown?

Conclusions?
A lot of what Pitch has been doing has been clarifying things and trying to settle conflicts. But for all that, he's been quite sharp and his reactions to the reveals (first Nog, then Inzil) look innocentish to me. What has ben called his "moral highground" re. Bom-lynch could easily be a Pitchwolf smelling easy cannon-fodder, though.
Still, my overall feeling is leaning more innocent than not.

[Eönwë]

Also, as for Shasta being a wolf, I don't know why one would cling to the acolyte thing when it was clear that Nog (who was the main advocator of it) was going down, and would get linked to it. On the other hand, there's refuge in boldness, and he might have hoped it would make him seem more innocent. I don't know.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

But tell me one thing: if you already dreamed Nog on Night 1 and knew from the beginning that he was a wolf, why on Earth did you join his and Shasta's "lynch Bom" initiative?

I didn't get a chance to properly read the thread before voting, so I didn't realise it originated at Nog. That's why when I saw it, and saw how easily it caught the village, I felt I had to attack him before he could cause any more damage, which was probably a bit of a (read: very much a) rash decision.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Also, as for Shasta being a wolf, I don't know why one would cling to the acolyte thing when it was clear that Nog (who was the main advocator of it) was going down, and would get linked to it. On the other hand, there's refuge in boldness, and he might have hoped it would make him seem more innocent. I don't know.

The other possibility (what I thought) would be simply that once he had decided to do it, he could not back away (people would call him inconsistent). I.e. he decided to "side with Nog" on the Acolyte business (or anyway, not side, but back up the idea himself), so he is just clinging to it.

But now I am really going - so vote well, village!

[Eönwë]

Also, if both Legate and Shasta turn out to be evil, what does that say about Boro? Would that be worth the risk?

[Eönwë]

And the fact that Legate seems pretty resigned about his fate worries me. I mean, whatever he is, he should probably fight. Unless he thinks that his resigned innocent persona seems good enough and that he's sowed enough suspicion that Shasta might get killed instead,

[Eönwë]

Here's the vote count, and now I'm going to work on a list of the living.

Lottie => Legate
Inzil => Shasta
Sally => Legate (2)
Shasta => Legate (3)
Legate => Shasta (2)

[A Little Green]

Boro - Half the time, I'm convinced he's evil; the other half, I'm convinced he's innocent. I still seem to recall something about Nog's wolvery making him look good, but I've no idea what that was! And, sadly, no time to check.

Sally - I don't remember much of who she's suspected (except for her summary of suspecting all the gifteds and one wolf); voted Eonwe Day 1 and Nog Day 2, I don't remember her reasons for voting Eonwe and again, no time to check. I like that she's getting into more of a serious mode, but I still don't have a read on her.

Shasta - I already said this, but he'd have to be totally insane to try all he's trying as a wolf. Just - totally insane. I don't want to lynch him toDay.

Nate - I'd love to take a better look at her, actually. She's sharp and nice, but a wolf can be both of those, too. The only thing I remember clearly is her pretty consistent pursuit of Legate; a bit too consistent and serious for wolf-on-wolf, methinks, so if Legate turns out evil Nate will look better.

Pitchwife - Going through his posts made me feel pretty good about him.

Lottie - Completely under my radar, actually! Which is pretty alarming. Will definitely take a look at her toMorrow.

Lommy! - I'm feeling rather good about her, too; definitely leaning innocent.

Legate - He's just - off the wall. Really. If he isn't a wolf, I bet he's making them really happy at the moment. I think he might be our best bet toDay - he's a likely wolf candidate, and in any case if he isn't lynched toDay he's likely to be the topic of all discussion toMorrow too.

Steve and Inzil don't get on the list. Sorry, sweeties.


EDIT: x-ed since my last

[Pomegranate]

To avoid the last minute mess:

++Legate

I suspected you on the day one already (after Shasta analyzed you, actually). Posted on that on day two. And your reaction to Steve was really weird. To be honest, after all this mess I am not that sure anymore, somehow all this fighting makes me confused (it might also be fever...), but you're the best I have, and if you happen to be innocent after all, it's going to give the village a lot to think about.

x/ed with Greenie and three Eonwes

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Also, if both Legate and Shasta turn out to be evil, what does that say about Boro? Would that be worth the risk?

He is present/set alarm to get last words/ideas. It appears something's happened to Shasta...as in, where is he?

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

And Pitch: Looking back, you said YesterDay that you thought Legate's reaction on Steve's reveal made him in your eyes more trustworthy than not. Why did you not bring that up anymore today, when people started seriously doubting Legate?

I was getting to that.

I thought yesterDay that Legate could have had a good reason for his reaction to Eönwë's reveal (i.e. that Eönwë could conceivably be an Acolyte who gets a kill one Night, a dream the next etc.), but by his own words that hadn't occurred to him until I suggested it. Going back and rereading his posts, I also notice that his wording was too strong to express mere reasonable doubt:

Originally Posted by Legate #236

I am rather convinced, now thinking about it more and more, that Eönwë is just fake. A rather not very well done Wolfy Seer-revelation-attempt

OK, elsewhere in the same post he says "It is of course still possible he is not lying", but this sounds like an attempt to discredit Eönwë at any cost. There's also his insistence that Eönwë should reveal his dreamed ordo, which would only have given the wolves a second best choice of kill in lieu of the (most likely protected) seer. All this does not look good.

What could speak for him is that he began to revise his position in #248 before other people began to suspect him (up to this it had been between him, Nog and Zil). But maybe he just realized that going all out against a revealed seer would get him into trouble.

I'm genuinely puzzled by him, because honestly, the way he's played doesn't make much sense either for an innocent Legate or for a wolf-Legate, but all in all, he does look more bad than good.

[Eönwë]

Ok, I will even things up with:

++Shasta

I'm not sure any more what I think, but here we go.

edit: x-ed with Pom. Ok, not even then.

[Nerwen]

Fifteen minutes.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Pitch

I'm genuinely puzzled by him, because honestly, the way he's played doesn't make much sense either for an innocent Legate or for a wolf-Legate, but all in all, he does look more bad than good.

Which is more or less spot-on what I feel. But since I think he's a better choice than Shasta, and since bringing in a third candidate (and who would that be, anyway?) at this point would be insane considering the risk of a double-lynch, I think I'll have to go with

++ Legate


EDIT: x-ed with Steve and the esteemed mod-goddess

[Pitchwife]

And for the record, I'm far from at ease about Shasta either, but don't suspect him that much yet that I'd be comfortable with a double lynch, even if we had the numbers to afford it. We can worry about him toMorrow.

For toDay,
++Legate


EDIT: x-ed from Eönwë to Greenie.

[A Little Green]

Legate 5, Shasta 3, right?


EDIT: x-ed with Pitch, whih makes it Legate 6 and Shasta 3 if I'm correct

[Thinlómien]

Gah. Legate looks very suspicious in all other regards, except I can't see why a wolf-Legate wouldn't believe Eönwë's reveal. It seems suicidal.

edit: xed with 2 posts

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

And the fact that Legate seems pretty resigned about his fate worries me. I mean, whatever he is, he should probably fight. Unless he thinks that his resigned innocent persona seems good enough and that he's sowed enough suspicion that Shasta might get killed instead,

What do you think I've been doing all day? Nobody probably just bothers to read it. All my calls at the innocents, urges for them to put the blindfolds off their eyes. Predetermined that I am evil, therefore interpreting everything in the worst light, not even considering the other might be possible. But yeah, at least if I am lynched, I hope it will clear the air, to whatever my fate is... just don't let others off the hook (my post just two above or something).

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Legate - He's just - off the wall. Really. If he isn't a wolf, I bet he's making them really happy at the moment. I think he might be our best bet toDay - he's a likely wolf candidate, and in any case if he isn't lynched toDay he's likely to be the topic of all discussion toMorrow too.

I bet the WWs ARE happy right now, and if that's a subtle way of saying "you're making ME in particular happy", thank you, you're welcome...

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I thought yesterDay that Legate could have had a good reason for his reaction to Eönwë's reveal (i.e. that Eönwë could conceivably be an Acolyte who gets a kill one Night, a dream the next etc.), but by his own words that hadn't occurred to him until I suggested it.

Yes, also consider: why would I confess that I thought of that only after you posted it if I was a Wolf? It would've been far easier to say "yeah, Pitch, that's exactly what I had in mind" and be done with it. Nobody has been seriously considering how much of things I have done which would be illogical if I was a Wolf.

My bus going. Bye!

(xed with all votes)

[Pomegranate]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Which is more or less spot-on what I feel. But since I think he's a better choice than Shasta, and since bringing in a third candidate (and who would that be, anyway?) at this point would be insane considering the risk of a double-lynch, I think I'll have to go with

++ Legate


EDIT: x-ed with Steve and the esteemed mod-goddess

Actually, my thoughts exactly. Including the comment on the quote. Weird, as I said. But we will see I guess.

xed with Legate

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Legate 5, Shasta 3, right?


EDIT: x-ed with Pitch, whih makes it Legate 6 and Shasta 3 if I'm correct

Yes, with apparently Lommy and I left, I believe. Shasta appears not to be here.

[Nerwen]

The votes:

Lottie ––> Legate
Inzil ––> Shasta
Sally ––> Legate (2)
Shasta ––> Legate (3)
Legate ––> Shasta (2)
Pom ––> Legate (4)
Steve ––> Shasta (3)
Greenie ––> Legate (5)
Pitch ––> Legate (6)

[Thinlómien]

Okay let's do it:

++ Legate

Just for the record, I will finish and post my analysis toMorrow. This far I must say Pitch and Shasta look like unlikely packmates of Nog, more or less everyone else looks more or less likely.


edit: xed with a lot

[Eönwë]

Boromir88 - I don't know. Something about him seems a bit off, but he seems to speak sense. But isn't he more vocal usually? Why is he so quiet?

Sally - At first I was leaning guilty, now I'm leaning innocent. She hasn't posted enough. It's more recappy like Shasta did on Day 1, which isn't really a good measure of good or bad.

Shasta - Crazy. About as crazy as Legate. And he worries me.

Pomegranate - I still find her sharp and innocent.

A Little Green - She is far too deep under my radar. So she worries me.

Pitchwife - I've been flip-flopping on him the whole game. At first he seemed dark and evil, then good, and now I'm uncertain again.

Lottie - The only reason I don't have a strong feeling of her innocence is her lack of posts. And that's a big reason, because she's usually pretty vocal.

Inziladun- Obviously, he's innocent.

Lommy - If Legate turns out to be evil, she needs to be re-evaluated, because she would seem pretty bad in that case. If not, I don't know.

Legate of Amon Lanc - Weird, crazy, evil. Maybe. Some of his most recent posts have started to look relatively genuine, which worries me. But I think he's done enough to condemn him.


So basically, now I suspect everyone except for Zil and Pom, and Lottie to a lesser extent.

[Boromir88]

Ok then, Lets do this.

++Legate

Edit: crossed with Lommy and Eonwe

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Leggie

I bet the WWs ARE happy right now, and if that's a subtle way of saying "you're making ME in particular happy", thank you, you're welcome...

You should see me now. I'm pretty far from happy, believe me.


EDIT: x-ed with Steve and Boro

[Nerwen]

The votes:

Lottie ––> Legate
Inzil ––> Shasta
Sally ––> Legate (2)
Shasta ––> Legate (3)
Legate ––> Shasta (2)
Pom ––> Legate (4)
Steve ––> Shasta (3)
Greenie ––> Legate (5)
Pitch ––> Legate (6)
Lommy ––> Legate (7)
Boro ––> Legate (8)

Ooo, I can't remember when I last witnessed such a huge bandwaggon!

[Thinlómien]

Moddess, you are horrible, also your narration says it's Day4 now although it's Day3, and this confused me.

[Eönwë]

When that I was and a little tiny boy,
With hey, ho, the wind and the sun,
A foolish thing was but a toy,
For the sun it burneth every day.
But when I came to Harad's lands,
With hey, ho, the the wind and the sun
'Gainst Northern spies we made our bands,
For the sun it burneth every day.
But when I revealed where my heart does lie,
With hey, ho, the wind and the sun.
I could see that I was soon to die,
For the sun it burneth every day.
A great while ago the world begun,
With hey, ho, the wind and the sun,
But that's all one, my time is done,
And we'll strive for Sauron every day.

[Nerwen]

Deadline. No more posting.

Edit: Legate, of course, has been lynched by eight votes to three. Narration to follow.

[Nerwen]

The survivors were not sure whether to mourn G55 or rejoice that a spy had been caught. Strangely, though, the talk again soon turned to the Acolyte. Shasta was particularly determined to rout this mysterious individual.

"Why are you so sure the Acolyte must be evil?" asked the Legate of Khand suspiciously. "And why did you suggest a double-killing yesterday?"

"I sense the beginnings of a witch-hunt!" snarled Shasta. "What about you, Easterling? Why wouldn't you believe the Envoy? Spy!"

By the end of the day Guard-lieutenant Shasta and the Legate of Khand had all but come to blows, shouting insults and accusations at one another while the rest looked on in bewilderment.

"My Master has, as yet, granted me no insight into either of these two," said the Envoy, "but I wouldn't be surprised if one of them's a spy. Or even both."

There was some talk of killing the pair of them, but after some debate it was generally decided that Shasta looked the better of the two, and that it was Legate alone who must die. It only remained to think of an appropriate method of execution.

I know," said one among the company– they were never afterwards sure who– "This Legate claims to be an Easterling, does he not? Well, then– think of the Wainriders!"

It took the others only moments to grasp the possibilities of the idea. Boro volunteered the large, heavy cart he used for his charges' fodder, and, once Legate had been tied up and placed in the middle of the main courtyard, the company got together and gave the vehicle a hearty push. The huge waggon trundled slowly, inexorably forward. The crunching and squelching it made going over the Easterling's helpless body could not be drowned out even by his frightful dying screams.

The waggon rolled on with bloody wheels, coming to a gradual halt at the far side of the courtyard.

The crushed and mangled thing it left in its wake was barely recognisable as Legate. The others waited around it as the shades of evening fell, hoping against hope for some sign, for the barest hint of a magical change.

They were to be disappointed.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Living
Boromir88 –Wealthy mûmak breeder.
Sally –Messenger girl.
Shasta –Particularly attentive guard-lieutenant.
Steve –Court Jester (from Umbar).
Pomegranate –Entertainer.
A Little Green –The Empress's favourite snake-charmer.
Pitchwife –Captain in the "Provisional Royal Númenórean Navy" and emissary of Angamaitë IX, Lord of Umbar.
Lottie –Accident-prone sorcerer's apprentice.
Inziladun –Minister of the Treasury.
Lommy! –Court physician.


Dead
The Empress of Harad. Mod. –assassinated in her sleep.
Bom Tombadillo –Greatly afflicted beggar. Ordo. –multiple stab wounds.
Eruhen –Court eunuch. Ordo. –burned to death on the Empress's funeral pyre.
Rikae –Empress's handmaiden. Royal Executioner. –garotted with own wire.
Nogrod –Camel and coffee trader. Spy. –poisoned with own merchandise.
Galadriel55 –Professional assassin. Captain of the Guard. –neck broken in stairwell fight.
Legate of Amon Lanc –Legate of Khand. Ordo. –crushed to death by an enormous waggon.

Night Four has begun.

[Nerwen]

"Come in, come in," said the Envoy of Mordor. "I have been expecting you."

"You have?"

The Envoy smiled. It was not a very nice smile, but his visitor had the sense it was doing its best. "Why, what sort of magician would I be if I had not? I dreamed of you tonight. I know who you are and why you are here– young Acolyte. Come, and I will teach you, as the Empress commanded."

The Acolyte shuffled uncomfortably on the threshold. "Well, I'm not sure if I– that is, I–"

"I know, I know– I saw it all in your mind. You have doubts. You are loyal to your own people, and hate the Men of Gondor– as who does not?— yet you have unfortunately been led astray by some of the more absurd stories about my Master. Ha! Ha!" –here he laughed in a not-terribly-convincing manner– "it really is astonishing, the things people will believe! Still, desperate times call for desperate measures, and I am willing to take the risk. Luck is on our side tonight anyway– these craven Elf-friends clearly have not the courage to make an attempt on my life yet, so there is time."

The Envoy instructed his new pupil for several hours, exclaiming frequently at the speed with which the Haradian picked up the rudiments of sorcery.

"There's one thing I'm curious about," the Black Númenórean said in a moment of relaxation, between sips of fine coffee (certainly not Nogrod's). "Did you kill Eruhen? You needn't be afraid to tell me– I never liked him, you know."

"Well, I–" the Acolyte began.

"Wait!" said the Envoy, holding up a hand. In a moment the Acolyte heard it too: the sound of soft footsteps– they seemed to be made by two or three pairs of feet– coming up the stairs. Then there was silence, broken only by a faint whispering outside the door.

The Envoy's grey eyes slitted. "It seems our lesson is to be interrupted after all." He led the Acolyte to the room's one window. "One at least of us must survive. You have learned quicker than I thought possible– and I am confident now you will choose the right path."

"But what about you?"

"Me? Oh, it will be enough if I can take this–" the Envoy's face twisted into a snarl, "this Gondorian rabble with me!" He drew a black, evil-looking dagger, worked with strange symbols around the hilt.

As the Acolyte hesitated on the sill, nervous of the longish drop to the ground, the door shuddered under a rain of heavy blows.

"Go!" screamed the Envoy. Even as the Acolyte jumped, the door crashed open, and three figures burst into the room, swords drawn. (The Acolyte did not have time to make out their features.)

Winded by the fall, the Acolyte could only gasp for breath and listen to the sounds coming from above– battle cries and curses in several languages, screams, the clash of steel, the strange burning and sizzling noises as the Envoy threw his magic into the fray.

All was quiet by the time the Acolyte had recovered enough to creep indoors, and peer cautiously around a corner at the staircase– which three figures were even then descending.

The Acolyte fled, but not before hearing them say to one another, "What a fight that foul sorcerer put up– but our victory is all the sweeter. Nogrod is avenged at last!"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Living
Boromir88 –Wealthy mûmak breeder.
Sally –Messenger girl.
Shasta –Particularly attentive guard-lieutenant.
Pomegranate –Entertainer.
A Little Green –The Empress's favourite snake-charmer.
Pitchwife –Captain in the "Provisional Royal Númenórean Navy" and emissary of Angamaitë IX, Lord of Umbar.
Lottie –Accident-prone sorcerer's apprentice.
Inziladun –Minister of the Treasury.
Lommy! –Court physician.


Dead
The Empress of Harad. Mod. –assassinated in her sleep.
Bom Tombadillo –Greatly afflicted beggar. Ordo. –multiple stab wounds.
Eruhen –Court eunuch. Ordo. –burned to death on the Empress's funeral pyre.
Rikae –Empress's handmaiden. Royal Executioner. –garotted with own wire.
Nogrod –Camel and coffee trader. Spy. –poisoned with own merchandise.
Galadriel55 –Professional assassin. Captain of the Guard. –neck broken in stairwell fight.
Legate of Amon Lanc –Legate of Khand. Ordo. –crushed to death by an enormous waggon.
Steve –Court Jester (from Umbar). Envoy of Morder. –sliced up by the spies on Night Four.

Day Four has begun.

[Thinlómien]

Ok, since assumedly Eönwë is no more, we have:

Boromir88 –Wealthy mûmak breeder.
Sally –Messenger girl.
Shasta –Particularly attentive guard-lieutenant.
Pomegranate –Entertainer.
A Little Green –The Empress's favourite snake-charmer.
Pitchwife –Captain in the "Provisional Royal Númenórean Navy" and emissary of Angamaitë IX, Lord of Umbar.
Lottie –Accident-prone sorcerer's apprentice.
Inziladun –Minister of the Treasury.
Lommy! –Court physician.

Out of which Zil and four others are ordos, three are wolves and one is the acolyte. Since the acolyte doesn't count in the tally, this means that if we lynch an innocent toDay and another (presumably Zil) dies during the Night, it's three ordos, three wolves and the acolyte toMorrow, which means the wolves win, unless the acolyte has some superpowers and is willing to use them from the village benefit, but let's not assume that.

So we basically have to lynch a wolf toDay. This means we should think at least twice before we vote toDay.

I'm going to finish my analysis from yesterDay now.

Also I just looked at the vote tally and only our known innocents (Steve, Zil and Legate) voted Shasta, everybody else voted Legate. It would be tempting to conclude Shasta's guilt from this, but we can afford knee-jerk thinking toDay.

[Pomegranate]

Agh. And I felt so smart suspecting the same person three days in a row, just to find out that despite everything I thought had to mean he was a wolf, he wasn't. Now it's my turn to need a full reevaluation of everything.

And I was going to bring about the same point as Lommy. We can't afford to lose an innocent today. At least not alone - a double lynch with a wolf and an innocent would still keep us alive. Hence today, if it was considerately done, I would suggest to think about a double lynch. Counting numbers:

Lommy already mentioned what happens if we lynch an innocent today. We're dead.
If we lynch a wolf today, and they kill an innocent at night, we end up with 4-2 (+1) tomorrow. That's pretty much the same situation as today.
If we lynch the acolyte today, it's 4-3 tomorrow, which means we have our chances, but they are not big.

Whereas:

If we lynch two innocents today, we're dead, surprisingly.
If we lynch an innocent and a wolf, it's 3-2 (+1) tomorrow, which is bad, but not as bad as lynching only an innocent.
If we lynch two wolves today, we might be able to breath again.
If we lynch the acolyte and an innocent, we're done for.
If we lynch the acolyte and a wolf, it's 4-2 and the unknown powers of this game are gone.

This obviously again depends on the acolyte, their alignment etc. But let's not discuss that all the time today.

I'll need to think and evaluate a lot before I have an opinion, an idea of this game again. I'll be doing that now (as well as writing an essay).

[Thinlómien]

So, how did everybody treat Nog on Day2? For Day1, please see this post.

Lommy defends Nog’s change of heart concerning Gal (#165). Lists Nog under “innocentish” and says she has good gut-feeling about Nog and trusts him for the time being (#204). [Editor's note: after reading the posts she xed with] amends that Nog looks a little worse (#206). Believes the revelation and votes Nog (#273).

Legate [my analysis was almost done in the end of yesterDay, so he was included all along, and I will leave this here in case it's of scientific interest to anyone] slightly defends Nog’s Legate-180 on Gal (#166, a cross-post with Lommy’s #165). Then he defends/explains Nog’s anger ventilation to Pom (#178). The discussion continues (#182). Then he discusses Rikae with him (#190). Makes fun of him and tells him to read his (Legate’s) post (#191). Attacks Eönwë for a suspicious attack on Nog (#194). Lists Nog under “grey” (his second most innocent category) and says a lot about him seems innocentish but there have also been good points against him lately (#213). As has been discussed, doesn’t believe Steve’s reveal (#236). Continues this (#239). Then, more or less makes a Legate-180 (#248). Ponders about lynching Zil in Nog's stead or making a double lynch, but concludes single lynch is much better (#275). Votes him not to split the votes (#276). Agrees with Pitch's arguments for Steve and against Nog (#276).

Pom points out Nog’s major role in the Bom-lynch but doesn’t conclude much from it (#167). She further discusses Bom-wagon, mentioning Nog several times (#172). She defends to Nog why emphasising his role in the Bom-lynch made sense (#173). Argues with Legate about Nog’s innocence/sensibility (#180). Thinks he answered her suspicions pretty well (#231). She leaves before Eönwë's reveal.

Pitch criticises the Bom-lynch and directs the criticism towards Nog (#168). He answers his criticism (#175). Rants a little more about the Bom-lynch, says Steve’s attack on Nog makes him look better despite his (Pitch’s) earlier suspicions on him (Nog) and discusses Rikae’s death with Nog (#211). A rather aggressive point against him (#214). Again, discusses Rikae with him (#224). After the reveal, he trusts Steve (and shortly tells why) and votes Nog (#277).

Boro discusses Rikae’s death with Nog, and defends himself (#177). He defends Eönwë’s attack on Nog and discusses Nog’s actions in the Bom-wagon without labelling them as anything else than “overkill”, as opposed to “suspicious” or “innocentish”, but says he seems to be treading carefully which implies suspicion (#203). He crosses with the seer reveal while saying: Nog was careful yesterDay but maybe an inncent Nog would have a reason to do that too, says he wanted to refrain from commenting (and encourage others to do so too) Eönwë's attack on Nog before Nog himself reacts, he has conflicting opinions about Nog himself (sometimes he sounds genuine, sometimes he sounds really bad) and is not sure whether everything thus far is enough for him to vote him as he recalls innocent Nog often being paranoid too (#254). He is amused by Nog's desperation and faulty facts and votes him (#267).

Lottie trusts Steve's reveal and votes Nog (#256).

Sally is catching up: she finds Nog willingness to help Bom's suicide alarming and after reading until the end of page five, she lists Nog in her guilty category which covers half of the village (#265). Votes Nog but mentions the possibilty Steve is lying (#266).

Shasta trusts Steve and believes in Nog's guilt, but believes we should lynch Zil the assumed acolyte (#268).

Greenie says that regardless of Nog's starting it, Shasta was the one behind the Bom-lynch (#184). She acknowledges and adds points against Nog but says she has a good gut-feeling about him (#187). She doesn't like Eönwë's jump on Nog and agrees with Legate's points about it (#195) then votes Eönwë (#196). She leaves before Eönwë's reveal.

Conclusions to follow.

[Thinlómien]

Using Legate's analysis about Nogrod's comments about everybody (#366), and my analyses (#398, #437) about others' comments about him (and omitting myself of course):


Unlikely packmates

Pitch - when he criticises the Bom-lynch, his main target is very clearly Nogrod, not Shasta, Legate, Eönwë or me. In a few other occassions, he is rather aggressive towards him. I'm not sure of this new, more aggressive style of Pitch's, but I can't see him coming up with it as a wolf and applying it mostly wolf-on-wolf, it is potentially dangerous to the pack and puts him rather in the spotlight.

Shasta - his rather loud attack on Nogrod on Day1 doesn't reveal much, neither does the subsequent interaction, but: why the heck would a wolf-Shasta tainted himself by the association by suggesting lynching Zil the supposed acolyte instead of Nog the wolf? Surely that would have been too brazen?

These two are not exonerated by this, but I think it makes them look better enough that we should let them be for toDay which is the critical Day.


Possible packmates

Lottie - Nog attacked him on Day1, which would make her look more innocent than not. (Would a wolf-Nog bus fellow Lottie who is always suspected on Day1? That would be a bit too mean, taking into account that Lottie is someone who plays "properly" by Nog's standards.) Otherwise not much to conclude from: slight suspicion/ neutrality towards each other, Lottie believed Steve's revelation immediately like most of the people.


Likely packmates

Boro - on Day1, he talks uncharacteristically little about Nogrod, almost seems to avoid him. Nog suspects him, but doesn't seem to seriously consider voting him. On Day2 they argue, Boro defends Steve for attacking Nog but is himself very conflicted about Nog's role until Steve's reveal, when he turns almost malicious. To me, this seems like the exact way Borowolf would act with fellow Nog and wanting to keep all possibilities open about a packmate... Then again, Nogrod was pretty contradictory on the Day he died.

Pom - Nogrod is pretty nice to her in a way I can't really make sense of, maybe more like wolf to innocent. Then again, what she says about him is rather fishy: a few times she raises some point point about him, discusses it and concludes nothing. She suspects him but concludes he answered her suspicions pretty well. Makes her a more likely packmate of Nog's than many others.

Greenie - Nogrod suspects her a little, she scarcely mentions him, then in a list she says she has mixed feelings about him and votes Eönwë who attacked him. Hmm... looks almost too obvious wolf-on-wolf.

Sally - they mention each other so little it would be a perfect wolf-on-wolf tactic. Sally's suspicion of him is so "mainstream" we can hardly conclude anything from it.


Hmm... so if I had to bet, I would guess a Nog-Boro-Pom-Sally pack, but substituting any of them (except for Nog of course ) with Greenie or even Lottie is of course possible. (Pitch, Shasta and Lottie, if you are the remaining wolves, feel free to laugh at me. )

In any case I will still do a lot of rethinking and rereading toDay, because we cannot make any conclusions too fast toDay (so I reserve the right to change my opinion, thank you!)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Okay, fine, Inzil's an ordo. Fair enough. But you aren't allowed to suspect someone for thinking you were claiming something when you were acting like you were claiming something (and don't try to deny that, Inzil, it's all over your D1 actions.)

I will deny it. It was never in my mind to play at being the Acolyte.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

You really think, if I was a wolf, I had a shot at saving the Seer-dreamt Nogrod yesterday after he already had five votes against him? You vastly overestimate my skills, I'm afraid. Or you think I'm an idiot. Either or.

If you yourself didn't think your vote would be effective, why do what you did? Clearly you had a hope of, if not saving Nog, at least taking someone with him, someone you had no way of knowing was evil.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Also I just looked at the vote tally and only our known innocents (Steve, Zil and Legate) voted Shasta, everybody else voted Legate. It would be tempting to conclude Shasta's guilt from this, but we can afford knee-jerk thinking toDay.

I agree that Shasta should not be the focus of toDay.

That said, it should be remembered that, in addition to what I said yesterDay, he:

A. Was the spearhead for the Bom lynch Day 1.
B. Tried to bring another lynch for consideration over, or in conjunction with, a Seer-dreamt wolf Day 2.
C. Was following the lead of said wolf both times.

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

Agh. And I felt so smart suspecting the same person three days in a row, just to find out that despite everything I thought had to mean he was a wolf, he wasn't. Now it's my turn to need a full reevaluation of everything.

For some reason this doesn't sit well with me. It feels like the standard "Gosh darn it, I went and killed a good guy!" that wolves are so fond of.

[Thinlómien]

Now going but just saying: if someone is unwilling to discuss their suspicions and trusts toDay, we have all the reasons in the world to believe they are wolves who don't want to reveal their pack. No innocent has a need to hide their loyalties. That said, au revoir, I will be back in the European evening!

edit: xed with Zil