A Disturbing Development

[Lord of Angmar]

I have come upon a website angrily pointed out to me by a longtime friend and fellow Tolkienite. It is a White Pride website, primarily concerned with the promotion of an Aryan purist agenda and the shouting of gross racial stereotypes in large bold fonts. I would not have given it a second thought had I not come across a forum dedicated to the works of Professor John Ronald Reuel Tolkien, titled Lord of the Rings: Racial Archetypes in Tolkien's Epic Story. I instantly clicked on it, and found myself immersed in what seemed to be pretty tame (though for the most part grossly uninformed) debate about the works of JRR Tolkien. However, there are many ridiculous threads, in which members with Nazi Swastika avatars debate whether the Rings of Power and Sauron were intentional metaphors for Jewish extremists bent on world domination, or whether they just ended up being really similar. I registered at the site and attempted to write a few long, angry attacks on the ignorance of some of the posters, but strangely I never saw any of my posts show up. The only logical explanation I can think of is that the moderators scan through the posts for any anti-White Pride sentiment, but that may just be paranoia on my part. Still, take a look at the site and tell me what you think. I have not given it a thorough read so I do not know the extent of the topics.

Stormfront White Nationalist Community- Lord of the Rings Forum

Skimming through Stormfront made me truly grateful for the quality of debate on this fine website, the Barrow Downs. I would like to thank each and every member (and especially the fine team of moderators and those members who I have come to know more closely through private messaging) for making this site the great Middle Earth forum that it is. I find it a grave injustice to Professor Tolkien that things of such a racist nature would be posted on a forum dedicated to his works, and indeed I find it insulting that a neo-Nazi website would even include an individual forum for Lord of the Rings discussion.

[ October 28, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

[ October 28, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

[Mithadan]

It was very disturbing seeing semi-serious Tolkien discussion interspersed with the regalia of hatred. Tolkien himself was vehemently anti-Nazi and would certainly not have appreciated his name and his work being affiliated with such views.

LoTR has, unfortunately, been interpreted by some as racist, so it is not entirely surprising to find such a forum at a website such as that. Sad, but not surprising.

[Lyta_Underhill]

I read a few of the threads on this forum that you pointed out, Lord of Angmar, and they are indeed not what I look for in a forum, but, then again, since you are on their turf, I'm not surprised that your long angry post may have been moderated. I'm sure they get a lot of that and they might even look upon it as "trolling". I managed to find one thread with a link to an article on Jung and LOTR, and it also made me shake my head a bit. Footsteps of the Archetypes in the Legend of The Lord of the Rings I can't say I read it thoroughly, after I found the writer asserting that Frodo wasn't as brave as Aragorn. I changed the channel there and when he talks about Arwen saving Frodo from the Black Riders, so obviously not a book-related analysis.

I figure that everyone gets what they want out of good literature, and sometimes the good literature suffers in the popular consciousness for the association. Personally, I wouldn't pay it any more mind, because their minds are already made up, and there a lot more of them than you there. Must've stepped in a bed of fire ants! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Cheers,
Lyta

[Ainaserkewen]

Wow, from your description of this site, it sounds pretty serious. I mean to the extent that a simple(wildly popular) fantasy novel is generating this much contraversy, and adding to already existing contraversy. Unfortunately, the link did not work for me, perhaps it's just my computer, or not. Your written attacks were probably deleted. I've been to such sites before and they're strongest argument is that only people who agree with them, may influence the site viewers. I also thank people from this site that it is so open about race and everything else under Middle-Earth's sun. Alot of people take that kind of thing for granted. Like me for one. Living in such a diverse country of Canada, I find I'm sheltered from most descrimination where I live. However, there's always the internet. Thanks for posting the site, I think it will open alot of eyes.

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Being Jewish (by blood, at least), I found that forum slightly terrifying, but not least because of the idea that people like that can turn anything into a "proof" for their opinion. Even a fantasy trilogy...

I noted, however, that it said in different places on the forum that there'd been interviews with Tolkien, but that in some it said that he was an anti-semite, and in others that he was anti-Hitler. Could any of you confirm either of those? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img](I can't say I really trust the people on the forum to give acurate information...)

-Menelien

[Perethil]

I've always the professor came off as a bit of a racist actually, whether thats from my interpretation of LOTR or just from the various quotes I have read from him..

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Racism in LOTR?

-Menelien

[Northman]

I think that they just wanted to make it look like a great man like Tolkien shared thier views. they relize nobody likes them so they try to bring something peopllike to their side.

[Lord of Angmar]

This thread perhaps disturbed me the most out of any of the ones that I found:

Middle Earth: A Model For Us All.

In it, the author, a member on the site by the name of RohanKnight, says that he likes Middle Earth so much because it is exemplary of his hope that

the Caucasians will prevail, and not have their societies destroyed by invading armies of evil, satanic peoples

since the men who serve Sauron are, in his opinion, representative of blacks and other "satanic peoples" in general.

My response to him was this (although it did not get posted on the site for some reason [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ):

Tolkien is (admittedly arguably) not a racist, and he certainly did not write Lord of the Rings to prophecize or to suggest that he hoped for a Caucasian-dominated world. The main reason why Middle Earth's heroes share their features predominantly with Caucasians is that Professor Tolkien originally set out to write a mythology for Great Britain, which would be harder to reconcile with present day England if its heroes shared physical traits with members of a different ethnicity than the Caucasian. You are right about one point, though, RohanKnight, and that is that Middle Earth should be a model for present day society: a land where social standing is earned through bravery, humility, loyalty and honor, not through race.

It saddens me deeply that people would use Professor Tolkien to convey such a horrible and vulgar agenda.

[Mithadan]

Galadriel, during the late 1930s the possibility that The Hobbit would be published in Nazi Germany arose. Tolkien was sent a questionaire to determine his "racial purity" in order to qualify the book for publication under that regime's laws. His letter to Stanley Unwin stated that:

I do not regard the (probable) absence of all Jewish blood as necessarily honourable; and I have many Jewish friends, and should regret giving any colour to the notion that I subscribed to the wholly pernicious and unscientific race-doctrine.

His response to the inquiry from Germany called the questions "impertinent" and said that his having a German name would not be a matter of pride in the future. The undoubtedly profitable German edition was not published during the tenure of the Nazi regime.

Dwarvish language is semitic in origin. Although JRRT's Dwarves were based primarily upon Northern and Icelandic legend, he, in an interview, stated that he drew aspects of their culture (insular, clannish, with a private language) from the culture of Orthodox Jews. The statement, which was not meant to be taken as racist or offensive, has been cited or quoted out of context to support arguments that Tolkien was racist.

[Finwe]

I really think it's disgusting when people try to cover up their insecurities by twisting works of literature to their own dastardly meanings. It truly shows how insecure those people are. If they considered themselves better than the rest of the world, then why aren't they "in power"? The reason is that they're too damn lazy to get off their butts and work for a decent living, and get "rich and powerful" the honest way. The Jews didn't have to terrorize anyone to get their prosperity (in the Middle Ages). No. They got that prosperity by their own merits, and I admire them for that. Tolkien admired them for that. I daresay, after receiving that questionnaire from the Nazi government about his background, he was ashamed of his German name. If an author as inspiring and far-seeing as Tolkien can be branded a racist, then Eru alone knows who else will be branded as one. If the noble Professor has been branded a racist, then I, his insignificant follower, desperately trying to be inspired by the ideals that he lived by, taught, and wrote about, am proud to share that same brand.

[The Saucepan Man]

I share the revulsion expressed by others at this site and all that it stands for. I really have no desire to spend any length of time reading such repugnant drivel. I did skim over the thread that Lord of Angmar posted to, which was enough to give me a sufficient (and very bad) taste of what the site is all about.

Strange how, although they are extreme xenophobes, some members express admiration for a non-human race, the Elves. But, then again, Elves are white, so they must be OK. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

I think that this explains why your attempts to post were not successful, Lord of Angmar:

P.S. RohanKnight (and all other new posters): don't let the delay that occurs on the first posts of new members frustrate you. Just keep putting up posts and soon enough the delay will come off. And then you'll be enjoying to the fullest the largest and fastest-growing community in which its OK for White folks to be White on the Web.

Perhaps your posts have been held up by the delay, but I suspect that they have been screened (no doubt the reason for the delay on first posts) and rejected as not compatible with their contemptible world view. Clearly these people do not like being challenged by views which do not accord with their own.

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Thanks, Mithadan. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] (Those quotes were confusing me on the site.)

Somebody on that forum noted that the Dwarves couldn't have been based on Jews because:

Jews don't create thing they just take from others, while dwarfs where great builders. Read the book again.

Now, I know this argument can be negated very easily, so I won't even bother with that, but I have another question: was it only the language of the Dwarves that was based on Semitic languages, or the Dwarves themselves as well? :/

-Menelien

[Lord of Angmar]

Hear, hear, Finwe! I doubt, however, that you will be branded a racist for your admiration of Tolkien by any but the most ignorant of speculators.

Mithadan, thank you very much for the Tolkien quote regarding Nazi Germany.

[Mister Underhill]

These sorts of orcs are hardly interested in open-minded debate, so it's no surprise that they screen new members to make sure they're good and full of sincere hatred before they let their posts on the board.

Such a place seems like the Bizarro World Downs. I shudder to think of them having an anti-Esty over there moderating away like crazy.

I personally make it a practice not to even click on such links. I've seen enough A&E documentaries to know that law enforcement tries to keep an eye on racist, hate-mongering sites, and I'd never want to put my IP even within spitting distance of such buffoons.

[Kalimac]

Eesh. To coin a phrase, I'm not sure whether to laugh or weep. Lord of Angmar, I really admire for wading into the middle of it and trying to clean out the misconceptions, but I'm not sure there's really any way to change their minds, at least not by this method. It's an odd fact that the less evidence there is for a theory, the harder some people will cling to it, and they'll probably just be nasty to you for your pains. (If they can't figure out from Tolkien's own words to the German publisher that he did NOT regard the Jews as an inferior race, I doubt anybody who isn't Tolkien will be able to convince them).

That being said, is anyone else rather sadly amused by the way they use the word "Caucasian"? If we interpreted that literally, it would mean that only HerenIstarion and a few others would be numbered among the chosen. And the funny thing is that I've met several Caucasians (as in "from the Caucasus", not just "white" which can encompass a huge variety of ethnic backgrounds) who are quite dark and would probably be looked at very askance by these dingbats. Sigh. If they only knew what a genetic muddle everyone's background is...

[Birdland]

Eeewww! Be careful about checking this crap out. I wouldn't want these slinkers and stinkers to get ahold of my IP address. I don't even want my visit logged on their counter.

It only encourages them, y'know. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[ October 29, 2003: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[Eurytus]

Actually I find this a little bit sad but not surprising. Remember that LOTR is a work of art and as such, the actual views and intent of the artist do not have much bearing upon the views of those that interpret it. Any one piece of art can elicit a differing reaction from each person that views it.
Was Tolkien a racist? We cannot say for sure although there are indications to the negative. Does this affect how people will read LOTR, no, not really.
Could LOTR make someone a racist. Again, no.

But what we are dealing with here are people who already are racist. So the question is, from their viewpoint, are there elements within LOTR that they can apply to their worldview. I think it would be naïve to say no.
As much as we can talk about LOTR being a mythology for England and hence of course people with different ethnicities are going to be seen as different and perhaps the enemy. But Tolkien’s intent about what the LOTR was going to be is not going to affect these peoples views.

Their worldview is that the white race is under attack from the hordes of non-Caucasian races. And moreover that the white race is superior.
Could they find something to back that up in LOTR?
Probably.
However we justify and whatever Tolkien’s reasons it is a fact that Sauron’s allies are usually men from the south and east. Swarthy men. Men who look somewhat like Orcs, sometimes even like half-trolls. These white supremacists are not going to take any notice of Sam’s one paragraph meditation on the enemies motives because that does not fit with their worldview. They are going to pick and mix what they want. And Tolkien does give them some depiction of men from the south and east being evil.

Can they also find elements to confirm they view of the white man as superior? Well again probably. The history of the Numenoreans gives enough detail about those of pure blood having a longer life and somehow being of a more noble mien than the lesser men. This should not be surprising considering that Numenor is Tolkien’s version of Atlantis and that Atlantis provided some inspiration to Hitler and his followers. Are the men of Gondor portrayed as superior to the men of the south and east in LOTR? Again there is just enough to give the racists succour. Often Aragorn’s kingly and noble demeanour alone is enough to quail the enemy (if but temporarily).

To summarise, LOTR is not racist. It is unlikely that Tolkien was either. But we would be foolish to believe that there is nothing in LOTR that a racist could take and use in his preconceived worldview. After all the beauty and the tragedy of art is that pretty much anything can be interpreted in pretty much anyway possible. All the more so in books.
The Bible after all can be interpreted any way you see fit, as a myriad of different Christian offshoots prove.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

The reply to the German publishers that Mithadan pointed out (Letter #30) takes a flawlessly ironic swipe at the entire concept of Aryanism.

Rütten and Loening required of Tolkien a written statement to the effect that he was of 'arisch' origin. Tolkien was annoyed by the demand, but decided to give Allen and Unwin the opportunity to strike a deal with the Germans, since he was aware of the money that they stood to lose. He wrote at least two drafts of the required Bestätigung, but in a form that made it clear that he regarded the entire process as distasteful, dangerous and idiotic. He chose to assume that by 'Aryan' the German company meant 'Indo-Iranian' (the linguistic meaning of the word), then expressed his regret at his own lack of Jewish blood and his admiration for the Jewish people, saying

I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy or any related dialect. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people.

Tolkien speculated that his German name had something to do with the impertinent demand for such genealogical assurances (I think it far more likely that publishers were legally required to request this sort of declaration of all their authors, which was another possibility that he considered), mentioning the pride that he felt in his German surname; but he also issued the chilling warning:

I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war... I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant enquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.

Tolkien's opinion of Hitler remained consistently poor. In a letter to his son Michael he describes him as "that ruddy little ignoramus", and in another, to Christopher Tolkien, he calls him "a vulgar and ignorant little cad"; but this is only to be expected given that he made these comments during a war between Britain and Germany. Tolkien also claimed to hold a personal grudge against the German dictator for "Ruining, perverting, misapplying, and making forever accursed, that noble northern spirit, a supreme contribution to Europe, which I have ever loved, and tried to present in its true light" (Letter #46)

Perhaps in that comment we can see the source of the connection with extreme right-wing groups: some of the ideas of Nazism are derived from one of the springs that drove Tolkien's writings, albeit with a great deal less sincerity and understanding. This can even be seen from Tolkien's writings, which contain certain races of men who are superior or inferior. Like the Aryans of Nazi mythology, the Númenóreans are a superior people both mentally and physically, whose blood is thinned by mingling with lesser races. In the story of Helm in the appendices to The Lord of the Rings, Freca, the traitor whom he kills has Dunlending blood, and the implication is that no true Man of Rohan would have behaved as he did. Whilst Tolkien's thinking was probably more along dynastic than racial lines (one's antecedents count for a lot in the medieval world, particularly if they happen to be gods), it seems hardly surprising to me that one sufficiently ignorant of history, genetics and anthropology to subscribe to the theory of white supremacy might take this feature as a justification of their position. Anyone who still regards Mein Kampf as a serious and workable political text is liable to believe any crackpot notion.

From other commments in his letters, Tolkien comes across as a man whose opinions on race were on the liberal side of moderate. He may seem somewhat racist from our perspective, but I'm sure that for his times he was reasonably enlightened. The only people whom he criticises en masse often enough for it to be memorable are the Americans, but this falls rather under the heading 'xenophobia', and given his concern that Europe would soon be swallowed by 'non-Europe', it is perhaps not so very surprising. His greatest worry was that the world would lose its regional diversity after the war, and he says in Letter #76]

when it is all over, will ordinary people have any freedom left (or right) or will they have to fight for it, or will they be too tired to resist? The last rather seems the idea of some of the Big Folk. Who have for the most part viewed this war from the vantage point of large motor-cars. Too many are childless. But I suppose the one certain result of it all is a further growth of the great standardised amalgamations, with their mass-produced notions and emotions.

That's the bottom line on this issue, though: Tolkien regarded theories of racial supremacy as risible and without justification. He knew that such theories had no grounding in science, and his own inclination seems to have been to regard all races as equal; and clearly he was a lover of diversity (he once declared of language O felix peccatum Babel!). He was hardly going to be the acceptable face of modern political correctness, since that movement didn't get started until he was dead, and his own views were somewhat reactionary in any case. I don't doubt, though, that some of the material that disturbs over-sensitive modern audiences would have been tackled differently had Tolkien been born a couple of decades later. We can't expect an Edwardian to have Elizabethan opinions after all. To be quite honest, the amount of space that Tolkien devoted to the subject of race in his published letters is so small as not to merit the length of this post: the fracas over his declaration of Aryanism seems to have been his only contact with a genuine racial issue, and in that he acquitted himself much as a modern fan might hope.

A more complete exploration of Tolkien on race may be found here

<EDIT>The link originally pointed to http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/pipermai...15/022334.html. Since that no longer works, my link now points at a brief article by Michael Drout.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I am unsurprised that these sort of people are still trying to use Tolkien's works to their own gain. I am baffled by the contradictory nature of their claims. On the wider issue, I am deeply saddened and infuriated that this school of thought operates to such a great extent in the world.

Its amazing how you can read something and come close to tears for the human race, and then come back and realize that not everyone thinks that way.
I would also like to restate my admiration for barrowdowns.com and the quality of debate that it offers.

[Aethelwine]

I don't know if I should thank you for that link or not, Lord of Angmar.

There's one thing that I have to say, though. This site's an eye-opener, alright! I never thought that people could look a our beloved LOTR that way. I'm reading that Model for us all thread, and I must say, the things they come up with! It just makes me want to scream with agony! I'll just give some of the quotes, to give an idea:

It is a land of many different people (like the different tribes of Europe), living in peace together, but is threatened by dark forces (like it is in our world, literally). There are other tribes of men described later in the story, ones that ally themselves with the dark lord. These tribes are clearly based on blacks and in the book call the good men of Middle Earth "white skins" as a derogatory term. So basically I hope that one day, like in Middle Earth, the Caucasians will prevail, and not have their societies destroyed by invading armies of evil, satanic peoples.

I think SaruMAN is a jew He controls the orcish hordes just like the jews control the blacks. The one ring to rule them all is the Jew World Order. Men of the west (men traitors) are the wiggers. Paths of the dead should bring forth the knowledge of our founding fathers. Just my two cents

In response to the above:

And he has the nose of a jew too. What do you suppose Gandolf symbolizes? Perhaps the wisdom of our ancestors - guiding, aiding, and finally triumphing over the hooknosed jew Saruman.

There are many more, but this is just to give you an idea why I am so upset. Maybe I am overexaggerating, but I really had no idea people are thinking this way about LOTR, and Tolkien! [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

I know, everybody has freedom of speech (or is supposed to!), but alas!, I think this is taking things to far.

I can't begin to tell you all how glad I am to have the Barrow Downs. Thanks, mister Barrow Wight!

Love you all!

Aethelwine.

[Perethil]

I posted earlier saying that I found tolkien to be a bit of a racist, I was sleep deprived tired and my computer was lagging, there the post was short. unfortunately I cannot back up anything with quotes, I hope you all forgive me for that.

The racist elements that I drew out from LOTR arent were purely RACIST as opposed to anti semetic elements - which seems to be what that white supremacy or nazis are interpreting. In fact, I have never connected anything in the book to Jews at all. The main source of my argument is the fact that Easterlings and Southrons are poeples governed by Sauron in the third age, or traitors in the first age. Geographically, I would imagine the East would now be Asia, and South (Harad and such) would be north Africa (please correct me if wrong). Furthermore, Easterlings are discribed as narrow eyed and Southrons with darker skin. This specifically leads me to believe that LOtR has some racist elements. once again, I apologise for not quoting, I dont have access to my tolkien-library atm.

I am Georgian (caucasian ?) but I live in Turkey, and I remember a Turkish friend of mine showing me a quote from the professor offensively refering to asians. When discussing this with another friend, he brought up the fact the evil Numenoreans were the 'black numenoreans' - however that I do not find racist as such, because i believe the 'black' in the title is a refrence to their dark nature, not their skin tone.

I'd like to add that I am appalled at the fact that I share one of my biggest interests with such people as the ones contributing to that thread. Although I had heard of supremists liking Tolkien's work, I had never imagined I'd see threads offensively comparing Jews to Dwarves and Tolkien quotes next to swastika avatars.

Frankly, it disturbs me deeply, since I believe fantasy to be a clear example of what is right about humanity, and racial superiority a clear exaple of what is wrong.

-vasiko manjgaladze-

[The Saucepan Man]

Furthermore, Easterlings are discribed as narrow eyed and Southrons with darker skin. This specifically leads me to believe that LOtR has some racist elements

Perethil, I too once thought that references such as this indicated a somewhat dubious attitude towards race on Tolkien's part. But, taking into account the time in which, and the standpoint from which, Tolkien was writing, then I cannot but conclude that there is in fact nothing sinister to be read into them. I set out my own views in this regard here in response to an excellent post by Inderjit Sanghera.

Of course, that will not stop these nutters believing that Tolkien's writings are in accordance with their deranged beliefs. Fortunately, however, they are in the minority (and, I fervently hope) will remain so.

[Neferchoirwen]

These guys sure sound smart in analysing Tolkien into their framework of White Supremacy. After all, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it happens that the way they behold middle earth and its comings and goings in the third age is not as beautiful as we from the Downs think.

Sadly yet, I wouldn't believe that the letters won't disprove them of their premise about the works. As long they know that JR Tolkien is a Catholic, that's enough for them to say that he's racist.

The books aren't racist. Their (our fellow fans over at Stormfront) concept of race in the books is the concept of evil. The fight between good and evil was never meant to be equated with that of a certain race being inherently evil. Besides, is the ring partial towards any particular race? i think not.

[Lush]

I bet Christopher Tolkien would be muy offended by rhetoric like that.

But still, they're only a bunch of 'tards. My boy Dr. Dre could deal with their punk a$$es.

[Olorin]

Wow. That seems like all I can vociferate after reading that.

Wow... Wow.

[Iarwain]

I think we should take beauty out of the eye of its beholders. Too many of them have bad vision.

Iarwain

[Lily Bracegirdle]

I'm saddened that people intelligent enough to string words together are so narrow in their world view.

Why not invite them here, where they can be properly debated? [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

-Lily (the Easterling)

[Finwe]

Oh no. We aren't letting those little pieces of pushdug in here! I'm sorry, but even for the sake of debating them, I still don't want to even think about them infiltrating the Downs.

[Olorin_TLA]

How about all of us drive them out of their forum!

[Finwe]

Hmm... if you come up with a plan, we can do that!

[Olorin_TLA]

Well, we start a threa dannouncing that everyone register there. Then we act smartly, friends. We don't just shout otu they;re wrong, etc, but bascially make them see that their race-theories are in fact completely wrong.
Or just spam the hell out of them. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Urgh...that site made me sick. Then I saw this... http://kids.stormfront.org [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

[Lily Bracegirdle]

Olorin, that site is ... scary. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

It reminds me why I never want to go south of the Mason-Dixon line. *shudder*

-Lily

[Lyta_Underhill]

It reminds me why I never want to go south of the Mason-Dixon line. *shudder*

Lily, please don't think we're all like that in the South! It is too bad that such a vociferous and idiotic minority skews the views of real beauty of the American South (gazes out back window at a yard that very much resembles parts of Middle Earth...). I've rarely been north of that said line, but I can't say I've met very many people personally who fit into that Stormfront profile, although there are plenty of garden variety rednecks (but you'll get those ANYWHERE!) [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Cheers,
Lyta (who is "not from around here" anywhere she goes...)

[ November 02, 2003: Message edited by: Lyta_Underhill ]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

I doubt it, Olorin. They probably wouldn't allow that thread, and certainly there's nothing we can do to 'drive them out of their forum' ('dah-dah-dah dah, dah-dah, dah-dah, dah-da' [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]) short of hacking their system.

That's not something I'm trying to get people to do, by the way.

Some advice: look at everything you find on the Internet, unless its sound stuff, from a distance. Take it from me that the Internet is absolutely full of disturbing (if you let it disturb you, which is unneccessary) material such as this. I've long since given up being disgusted by it.

Remember that it isn't real, after all (I hope you understand what I mean by that).

[miellien]

I am thanking the forces from on high that my random search for a Tolkien discussion site 2 months ago when I got a computer did NOT lead me to that evil place.Then I thank them again! I am always amazed that people with such obviously powerful imaginations choose to use them that way. They must be imaginative, or else how can they interpret things in such a wrong-headed way? Oh, and having lived both north and south of the M-D line, I can verify that find ignorance wherever you go.The impetus for this thread proves that.

[Neferchoirwen]

*smiles at Gwaihir* [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
I understand you completely, Gwaihir.
Racism is a figment of the imaginaiton...or probably that of the rational mind, if it calls itself so (rational, that is).

...but not as unreal as Middle Earth is *pardon the mush*

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I would like to reinforce what others have said already - it is best for us to ignore that site and others like it. Giving them attention by going there is more likely to encourage those involved than discourage them. They are not likely to let their minds get changed by anything we can say, so let's not give them our clicks!

[The Barrow-Wight]

It's certainly not the role of The Downs to attack any site that we don't care for, so I think we need to end this discussion. You are welcome to take your argument there, but please don't do it in the name of the Downs. We are dedicated to the discussion of Tolkien and don't need or want to get embroiled in social politics.