Smack The Dwarf!

[Morsul the Dark]

I was at work and two guys almost got into a fight maiinly becuase one guy was flirting with the other guy's girlfriend, and after the whole ordeal I thought to myself they should be more like Celeborn he didn't get jealous when Gimli was flirting with Galadriel.

He was not fond of Gimli because he was a dwarf first off and he was flirting with his wife... Why didnt he smack Gimli?

Why didn't Celeborn say anything about the whole thing? Was he jealous or did he let it go for the sake of the fllowship?

[Imladris]

I think that you are forgetting that Gimli's love for Galadriel was beyond a sexual love (thus he was not flirting). It was...a love of purity, I think. He adored her as the lady of the golden wood, and that was all. That is why Celeborn did not become angry.

[Morsul the Dark]

well I know it wasnt lust I do however think If I were Celeborn I might have been a little jealous dont you? "only if it is to look upon that which is fairest" Id be thinking "fairest and mine!"

[Imladris]

See...I don't think that Gimli meant fair as in, "You, baby, are the most beautiful lady on the earth."

The fair that Gimli meant was different than physical beauty or appearance. It was a higher fair than the sort of fair that you're thinking of. He loved her for her love and understanding:

And the dwarf...looked up and met her eyes; and it seemed to him that he looked suddenly into the heart of an enemy and saw there love and understanding..."and the Lady Galadriel is above all jewels that lie beneath the earth!"

He's putting Galadriel above him I think. He's not worshipping her, but is using a love similiar to worship I think. She is above the jewels...she is more precious, better, more wonderful than the jewels of this earth. She is like the Lady Wisdom in the book of Proverbs.

The reason, I believe, that Celebron did not smack Gimli was because he knew that Gimli's love was purer than thinking she was just pretty. It was far far far beyond that.

[Iris Alantiel]

Perhaps Celeborn took it as a compliment and was pleased to think that his wife was "that which is fairest". Or perhaps he just didn't feel especially threatened by Gimli's dwarvish masculinity.

[Boromir88]

Well not only Gimli, but Feanor also flirted with Galadriel, and Celeborn didn't do anything. I'm sure such a beautiful lady as Galadriel was, there were many more that flirted with her. Point is Celeborn being Teleri, and really the only reason his race is alive is because of Galadriel, I always thought he was a pushover. Yes, he was Galadriel's husband, I don't really know how to put this, but he always seemed like "Galadriel's a**wipe." Celeborn was a wise elf, but nothing compared to the noldor or even Elrond, and just always came off to me as a pushover. CELEBORN! Defend your woman for once!

P.S. Galdriel's theme song comes to me as Shanai Twain's "That don't impress me much." I mean with all the men she's had to turn down.

"So what your Brad pitt, that don't impress me much, you have the looks but have you got the touch..." aahhh great song.

[Fingolfin II]

When did Feanor "flirt" with Galadriel? I think you're probably referring to the incident with the hairs. Feanor asked for some of her hairs out of admiration, which is the same as what Gimli did. I believe that Gimli's relationship with Galadriel is one of love and reverence of her beauty, grace and kindness- but not as if he is in love. Just like if you love and admire someone, you can pay them a compliment about their good looks without actually being in love with them.

[ohtatyaro]

In Feanor incident, there was not Celeborn about yet, was there?

Funny how Galadriel rejected Feanor to grant some Gimli's wish . But she changed over time, haven't she? I mean, she was arrogant at first, and 'wished to have realm of her own' (of course, I messed up the quote, excuse me), and in the end 'I will remain Galadriel and diminish' (another mess up, I reckon, please someone with teh book handy correct me, please).

And Celeborn was referred to as 'Celeborn the Wise' Wise men do not make the fuss about 'admiration'. Besides, I reckon Gimli's was kind of Quixotic one (I mean, remember how that funny Don loved his Dulcinea? He was contended that she was there, not asking any more, and ready to do deeds (I mean, heroic, sort of) for the glory of her name) Gimli almost made a duel with Eomer for the glory of Galadriel's name. Chivalry. Chivalry allows for admirers to exist without making husbands angry. I mean the code allows it.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Celeborn sure had a good time of it!

Anyway, he could not possibly feel threatened by Gimli. He was an utterly different species for crying out loud. If anything, Gimli's actions would have made Celeborn feel even better. Married for all those years and guys are still drooling over your wife, that would make any Elf feel good.

But, if I can avoid being silly here, I am going to agree with Imladris about the type of love on display. It was not that kind of desire.

[Boromir88]

With the Feanor incident, there is a thread about Galadriel's hair, and Feanor wanted her hair for all the wrong reasons, why he was turned down and Gimli wasn't. Maybe the "flirting" was too strong a word, I think admire, or even "unrequited love" works better.

I agree with Eomer Celeborn probably just got a kick out of Gimli. Despite Gimli's great axe skill, he would probably be no match for Celeborn and maybe he already trusted his wife to be "faithful." Also think of the person we are dealing with. Gimli acts like he's tired of seeing the short dwarf women and falls in love with anyone who isn't a dwarf, Arwen, Galadriel, Eowyn, random women of Gondor lol.

Also, yes, Celeborn wasn't around when Feanor asked for Galadriel's hair.

[Mithalwen]

The attraction of Celeborn is sometimes hard to fathom - I sometimes wonder if "the Wise" was a bit ironic ....... but so often really brilliant clever women end up with husbands who are not their equal .....( because successful men feel threatened by women who don't need them to increase their status? Because there is only room for one really big ego in any realtionship?) and any way just about all the alpha males of her generation were either her brothers or first cousins and elves avoided marrying close cousins ..... Although Celebrimbor was quite keen wasn't he..?

More seriously .... HoME explains that in general that once they have chosen their spouse, elves are constant in their love - just as well since there is no "get out" ... and beyond producing children the marriages are rather more spiritual than physical..... so it is unlikely that Celeborn would have been terribly jealous let alone regarded Gimli as a threat ....... Gimli seems to worship Galadriel rather than flirt......

Actually if Celeborn were a dwarf he would have probably decked Gimli.... dwarf husbands apparently register off the scale for over-protective, jealous husbands but then the m/f ratio is not in their favour......

[Boromir88]

Mithalwen said:

but so often really brilliant clever women end up with husbands who are not their equal

Yes, perfect example Melian the maia and Thingol the Teleri, well another example besides Galadriel the Noldor and Celeborn the Teleri. These Teleri men woo, must be studs.

[Mithalwen]

. These Teleri men woo, must be studs.[/QUOTE]


LMAO....


Well silver hair can be very attractive..... or it is the prospect of all those romantic walks by the sea or boat trips ..... and they are musical too ...... probably can manage better than a drunken rendition of "You've lost that lovin' feeling" ala Top Gun when they serenade.....

[Boromir88]

Oh my now I'm LMAO lol.

silver hair, romantic walks..etc haha.

[Encaitare]

Celeborn probably saw Gimli and was all, "Psh, like that little hairy guy can get *my* pretty wife... keep dreamin' small fry."

It seems to me that Celeborn is a very level-headed guy who doesn't get worked up over anything. He chills in a tree all day and lets Galadriel do all the work, probably sipping a drink with a little umbrella in it.

While I doubt he was exactly pleased that Gimli was enamored of Galadriel, it was probably interpreted as more of a gesture of good will than anything else. I suppose if he sees that a Dwarf is reverent of an Elf, Galadriel no less, he would think that maybe he wasn't so bad.

And yeah, what is it with Teleri guys? Perhaps they were the buff surfer types of Middle-earth?

[Guinevere]

For me it is obvious that Gimli's feelings for Galadriel are a typical example of medieval courtly love and adoration. Apparently many people nowadays cannot picture such a thing anymore...
See this thread Gimli and Galadriel especially the posts of Kalimac (#9) about courtly love and littleman poet (#15) about the Virgin Mary !

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Encaitare

And yeah, what is it with Teleri guys? Perhaps they were the buff surfer types of Middle-earth?

YEs... or given the music, the rock-stars.. the eye-candy trophy husbands of Middle Earth. Maybe they were also the sweet sensitive types too .... not like those Noldorin men who spent all their time devoted to their craft , the elven equivalent of a husband who spends every possible moment tinkering with something in his shed...

[yavanna II]

Well Galadriel was the first Elf-girl who really showed Gimli Goodness? I mean that, she comforted Gimli by the dwarven names she sorta recited.... and I think that if Celeborn smacked Gimli it would bring more hate-for-elves in Gimli's heart. After all Gimli didn't desire Galadriel sexually.

[Boromir88]

Most elves, like the Noldor elves, and elves of Rivendell had pretty strong relationships with dwarves, not sexually, but friendship wise. We can see Gloin eating at Elrond's supper, Gloin had grown in great respect and had no problem with the elves from Rivendell. Noldor and Dwarves were both from Aule, so they sort of had a thing in common and they also, tended to be nicer to dwarve, as we get to see with Galadriel. The only really elves that had a problem with dwarves were the Silvan or Sindarin (Teleri elves). We get to see Thranduil's hate towards the dwarves in The Hobbit, we see the whole bit with Haldir, a Silvan elves, with Gimli, and I'm sure Celeborn had some resistance towards Gimli.

The friendship between Gimli and Legolas was indeed a strange one, I believe it said not one was seen between elves and dwarves, which is true, but Noldor and Elves of Rivendell had no hate towards dwarves.

[Saurreg]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I'm sure Celeborn had some resistance towards Gimli.

Nope. Celeborn welcomed Gimli in earnest and explained that he wished their meeting as a sign of things to come (the reconciliation and warming of ties between dwarves and elves again). Gimli was speechless and could only bow low in agreement and perhaps in respect to Celeborn's graciousness and wisdom.

There will always be bigots either in real life or in fantasy, but the wisest and most far-sighted will often be able to overlook past tresspasses in respect to the big picture. Celeborn, Elrond, Galadriel and Cirdan were perhaps only a few of them. And I dare say perhaps Thranduil's view of Durin's folks have also changed for the better after the Battle of the Five Armies.

Agree with you on your point of view on the dwarves and Noldor.

[mark12_30]

If Celeborn took offense at everyone who gave Galadriel a second look, he'd spend his whole long elvish life in one boxing match after another. He's too smart for that. Admirers come and go, but Galadriel stays, true to her oath and to her love. Does Galadriel show any sign of wandering? No. She and Celeborn share a serene acceptance and companionship that demonstrates confidence and trust.

Galadriel may be the greatest living of the Noldor and Celeborn 'just' a Sindar. But Celeborn has been around long enough to be quite respectable. He's older than Elrond, for instance. He's seen three ages. If he is not as far-sighted as Galadriel, still, he is no slouch and no fool. It would not surprise me if his inner strength were known to Galadriel alone.

[Encaitare]

It would not surprise me if his inner strength were known to Galadriel alone.

Score one for the overlooked husband!

I would like to think that Celeborn does have his own strength. Doubtless he does; we are aware of his great wisdom (which I believe Galadriel herself refers to).

[InklingElf]

I'd like to think Celeborn wasn't an obsessive-compuslive kind of husband. He must've known that he would expect alot of men to have compliments for his own wife. How can Galadriel avoid it? Hence the fact that the "Light of Illuvitar" shown in her face and her perfect goldn tresses. Doesn't that contribute to the spark of fascination that Gimli had?

There must be better examples than the ones that I've presented, but isn't it a given that Galadriel should have so many admirers?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

For me it is obvious that Gimli's feelings for Galadriel are a typical example of medeaval courtly love and adoration. Apparently many people nowadays cannot picture such a thing anymore...

Yes, but can a Dwarf and an Elven non-Queen ever simply be "just courtly friends" without the 's' word coming into it. I see great potential for a film here: When Gimli met Galadriel.

[Lush]

Oh Gimli TOTALLY had the hots for Galadriel. Remember how he wanted to deck Emoer for daring to say that Arwen was prettier?

I guess the thing with Gimli is: he can give a compliment without coming off like a loser and not crossing the boundary into the cheesy or the profane. And Galadriel appeared to be pleased with that. And Celeborn seemed to go along with whatever pleased his wife.

The thing about Celeborn is that he reminds me most of all of this typical, laid-back rasta sort of fellow. The sort who's pretty smart but doesn't have the need to be in the center of attention all the time. The sort that doesn't get jealous because he knows another dude is checking out his wife. It's already been said: if you're married to someone THAT hot, getting jealous EVERY time you notice someone admiring her can get pretty tedious. Plus, they'd been married for a long time. I'm sure Celeborn just got used to it.

[Bêthberry]

I've always rather thought of Celeborn as a Prince Philip type (except when I wrote him as Celery)--walking three paces behind Galadriel, holding his hands behind his back, with a bit of a plodding gait and a nodding head, helpful on walkabouts.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I see great potential for a film here: When Gimli met Galadriel.

ROFL, Saucy!! But can you imagine her doing the restaurant scene?! I can just see her little granddaughter watching and piping up, "I want the same menu!"

[The Saucepan Man]

I've always rather thought of Celeborn as a Prince Philip type

God forbid! If Celeborn had been anything like Prince Philip. he would probably have ended up calling Gimli "beardie" or "bignose" or some such thing and setting back Elf/Dwarf relations no end. Not the most diplomatic when it comes to different cultures, our Phil.

But can you imagine her doing the restaurant scene?!

Yes, I wondered about that. Perhaps she'd go all radioactive like she did in in the film.

[Bêthberry]

If Celeborn had been anything like Prince Philip. he would probably have ended up calling Gimli "beardie" or "bignose" or some such thing and setting back Elf/Dwarf relations no end. Not the most diplomatic when it comes to different cultures, our Phil.

Yaas, yass, [b]SpM[b], I do recall Phil praising a tall, elegant creature for breeding "height" into the Windsors, but castigating her otherwise. Yet I do beg to point out that my examples all referred to physical traits, not behaviour. I have always been an admirer of Michael Caine, who claimed that he imitated Mountbatten's walk for his character in his first movie, Zulu. That image has stuck with me.

But can you imagine her doing the restaurant scene?! I can just see her little granddaughter watching and piping up, "I want the same menu!"

Oh grandma, what big breaths you have.

[The Perky Ent]

It's Jerry Springer, Middle Earth Style

[InklingElf]

Originally Posted by The Perky Ent

It's Jerry Springer, Middle Earth Style

Oh dear me Smack the Dwarf!

...Followed by *bleeps* and a grand upheaval of the audience.



I agree with Lush. Celeborn was low-key -- though ambiguous about his intelligence (this is MOST imminent in the movie) to the reader he was the cool type who doesn't need prove anything to anybody -- much less be a spotlight grabber like his wife.

Isn't it interesting how spouses balance each other out so well?

[Lachwen]

These Teleri men woo, must be studs.

Hey, I have to admit, the whole idea of a guy with long silver hair is a bit of a turn-on for me...too bad we can't do that in this world without the help of wigs.

probably sipping a drink with a little umbrella in it.

Oh, I can just see him, relaxing up in his tree, wearing a Hawaiian shirt, drinking out of a coconut and singing "Wastin' away again in Margaritaville..." (ah, but is he eating Junior Mints? The mind boggles...)

the elven equivalent of a husband who spends every possible moment tinkering with something in his shed...

You mean there's an Elven Red Green? Actually, that kinda describes my dad...though mom doesn't mind, because he makes a lot of things for her. Continuing on this line of thought, that makes the guy I have the hots for a definite Teleri: cool, laid-back, musical...and British. Yum.

If he is not as far-sighted as Galadriel, still, he is no slouch and no fool.

Definitely. Anyone who spent many long years in the company of Melian can't be that short on wisdom. I am made to understand that Melian was one heck of a teacher; I seem to remember something in the Silmarillion about Melian teaching the Sindar much wisdom she knew from Aman.

Perhaps she'd go all radioactive like she did in in the film.

Radioactive? That's a great way of describing that scene, though I still prefer my description of her going "all Smurf-y and evil."

[Theron Bugtussle]

I think mark12_30 was spot on with the love and commitment between Celeborn and Galadriel.

The root of jealousy is a lack of trust in the other. These two had lived together in marriage for ages, and that is a long time for commitment to be established and proven. There was not even the slightest chance that one would doubt the other's steadfastness.

[ohtatyaro]

Originally Posted by Theron Bugtussle

The root of jealousy is a lack of trust in the other. These two had lived together in marriage for ages

That too . But code allows for wives to accept admirer's attention, even if there is no proven commitment. It only does not allow for actually making anything worth being jealous about. I mean:

Originally Posted by Guinevere

For me it is obvious that Gimli's feelings for Galadriel are a typical example of medieval courtly love and adoration

Yes, yes . Take Guinevere namesake (with full due respect), for one - Arthur did not object to Lancelot, he only could not imagine there was soemthing besides said courtly adoration. I mean, up to a point it was allright to be in awe of someone else's wife, unless one get too far beyond mere adoration

[HerenIstarion]

Probably you'd like this joke about the issue

[ohtatyaro]

I did not know where to put the quesiton, and haven't found special place for it. as it is related to what we discussed in this thread,so maybe it is the right place to post it, after all

So, are there any records of Gimli actually sailing West or where those just rumors?

[Mithalwen]

Well although it is recorded in the Red Book (end of Appendix A ) more as rumour than fact and so (unless there is more in HoME) Tolkien deliberately left this uncertainty. However your point made me laugh since the myth states he went part in desire to see Galadriel again. Now it isn't recorded when Celeborn himself made the trip - imagine if he arrived and found his wife with attendant dwarf groupie....

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Maybe that's the reason Celeborn lingered. He wanted to end the marriage, but he wanted to gain as much as he possibly could from a divorce; thus he manipulated the situation towards infidelity.

*rubs fingers in 'money' motion*

Return to the homeland, nice house by the Sea, a new sailboat....a swift move to Mirth....

[Mithalwen]

I am fairly certain that elvish laws and customs would not permit divorce but if we let that slide .... yes it is a common tale ..... boy meets girl and after a few millenia when the kids have gone they realise they have nothing in common anymore and want to do their own thing ......

Only trouble would be ... who deserted whom? By her departure Galadriel might have been interpreted as leaving him not only the marital home but the marital kingdom which would be a more than generous settlement - even if she did keep the jewellery..... I mean it is not Gally's fault that he chooses to over extend his resources by taking on a second new realm and ends up ligging off his grandsons at Rivendell.

Furthermore an adulterous relationship with a dwarf would surely (to elvish minds) denote clinical insanity and I am not sure if you are allowed to divorce a lunatic .... (NB The Downer Legal Beagles should not interpret this as instruction and attempt to charge me for their opinions..... ) but admittedly there is an outside chance that the legal system my have moved on since the days of Charlotte Bronte ...........

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

yes it is a common tale ..... boy meets girl

Ah yes. The eternal love triangle: Elf Girl meets Elf Boy. Elf Girl and Elf Boy fall in love. Elf Girl and Elf Boy marry. Elf Girl meets Dwarf. Dwarf becomes infatuated with Elf Girl. Elf Girl and Elf Boy divorce. Elf girl shacks up with Dwarf in Paradise. A common tale indeed.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

By her departure Galadriel might have been interpreted as leaving him not only the marital home but the marital kingdom which would be a more than generous settlement

Mind you, it was of little value once Nenya was decommissioned. Celeborn was so unimpressed with the residual value of the land that thought Mirkwood a better proposition and went off to live there.

With Thranduil ...

Er, I think I'd better stop before I go any further with this ...