WW LXXXIX: The Terror of Tol Fuin

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Flipping this. I have an Excel chart to prove it. >.<




But she's suspecting Bom for suspecting me, then suspecting me herself. I really should have been clearer about that, shouldn't I? Oh well. I just mean that suspecting the person who suspects the person you're suspecting doesn't make any sense. Just like that last sentence.



x'd with Shasta

Oops! I actually meant to say "the village has lost", not "won". My bad.

Yes, if you read my post I mention that myself.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I do hope the lack of any Legate or Nog posts in the last few minutes means they're reading my novel and preparing comments.

I'll be back in fifteen minutes or so. Deadline is in an hour and a half, correct?

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Oops! I actually meant to say "the village has lost", not "won". My bad.

Yes, if you read my post I mention that myself.

Bahahahaha! I didn't even notice that!


And I know, but didn't you mention it in regards to Eomer? It applies to Kit as well, which is why I did a re-hash.



x'd with Shasta

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

I'll be back in fifteen minutes or so. Deadline is in an hour and a half, correct?

Ditto this, and yes, dear, you're correct.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, this is rather horrible. Sally had actually managed to make me suspect her in the last several posts she had made, good job from you, sally.

First this post about Eomer - also given the general context, it seems a bit too random, also with the whole summary, as if what a Wolf could do if being suddenly under fire "ugh... I think I'd better avoid talking about myself and talk about something else... let's analyse someone".

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

He seems fine to me, balanced and logical as well as picking up on the humor where people intend for it to be found. While I don't agree with him on Kit, I'm thinking that he's not a wolf, or if so, not a wolf with her. I can't possibly disagree with him on Galadriel because, well, what he says is so true. My hesitation is brought about by her newness and the likelihood that her "guilt" is just newbie mistakes, which is why I am hesitant to follow his vote.

There is rather a lot of flip-flopping and not really saying much in the end. "The person seems fine to me" or "I don't know, maybe it is nothing" is rather Wolf-y stuff, as in, "I am not the one who lynched you" (or alternatively, "I won't lynch my packmates, but I won't speak too loud for their defence either, lest I be judged myself").

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Legate: I'm actually the opposite. As a wolf, being backed up would make me feel more comfortable, take some of the pressure off. As an innocent, however, I feel as if people support me only to make me the object of their manipulation.

Maybe I'm just paranoid.

Of course, that is only what you claim - we have no way to verify it. But I understand.

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Heh, heh, heh. I figured you hadn't seen it yet, and couldn't resist the opportunity to give you a (very) hard time. *blows a kiss*

Okay, this is probably the worst. So what, you figured he hadn't seen it and still posted what you did? Makes no sense to me. Didn't sound like it. Sounded like a genuine defence. And now you are relativising the defence - because you were suspected even despite it? I don't really get it.

All in all, if this stuff was meant to save you from suspicion, it managed to do actually the very opposite, thank you very much.

EDIT: x-ed since after the sally post I quote.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

There is rather a lot of flip-flopping and not really saying much in the end. "The person seems fine to me" or "I don't know, maybe it is nothing" is rather Wolf-y stuff, as in, "I am not the one who lynched you" (or alternatively, "I won't lynch my packmates, but I won't speak too loud for their defence either, lest I be judged myself").

Quite the opposite. I may not agree with everything he says, but I don't think he's guilty, and I said almost exactly that.

You're twisting my words so hard I think a few vertebrae have popped.


EDIT: Leaving in a few ticks. This'll probably be the last post from me for a little while.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

I do hope the lack of any Legate or Nog posts in the last few minutes means they're reading my novel and preparing comments.

I'll be back in fifteen minutes or so. Deadline is in an hour and a half, correct?

I'm already done with you, at least for the time being, thanks But what I've been writing you can see above.

In any case, speaking of Shasta, I think he looks rather good for the time being. Whereas sally (to add to what I said in my last post also what has happened meanwhile) sounds really bad also in all her other posts - random short entries with what could be a wannabe-happy mask of a Wolf who is actually in the middle of a crossfire right now. Sort of a hysterical reaction, if you wish. Really, I don't like this behavior. It came so out of nowhere.

[Thinlómien]

Uggh I still have no opinions and it's getting late. Somehow none of the arguments really convince me.

So who I won't vote toDay:
Kitanna - too useful this far.
Nogrod - us agreeing made me think him innocent, and now that we don't agree so much anymore (his case on Sally etc) I still think he looks fairly good.
Sally - well I still think she is one of the players who tends to avoid declaring her innocence when evil.
Shasta - gives me innocent vibes.
Legate - hats off for clearing his head and using his time much better than me, and his way of argumenting seems pretty innocent this far.

I'm the most suspicious about Eomer and Lottie atm, but it's mostly just gut-feeling. Maybe reread or more thinking would be in order.


edit: xed with Sally and Legate

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

G55 has defended Sally about three times!

I believe that was only one time, the other two just explaining my reason for it farther...

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

G55 - wouldn't believe it's her first game, she's so sharp.

Thank you!

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

G55, this is the most suspicious thing yet posted. (Welcome to WW, by the way)

Defending Sally, exaggerating Bom's words, and painting Kitanna as hypocritical (which was not my interpretation of Kit's post). I don't quite see why you did all three of these things.

Answered Greenie's similar question bout it in #57.

Originally Posted by Loslote

The only hunch I've got so far is an ickle little one about Galadriel

And which one would that be? That I am suspecting Kit, Bom, or that I think that Sally is an innocent?

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

++Galadriel55

So you'll remember me forever as the first person ever to vote for you in Werewolf. Har!

I won't forget about it next game.

Originally Posted by Eomer

Seriously: too much defending of Sally, too much attacking Bom and a weird interpretation of Kitanna.

So one defense is too much? And I'm not the only person to suspect Bom. Kit makes more sense to me now - after a couple more posts - but at that time she didn't.

Originally Posted by Loslote

I rather don't like how she tries to make a simple omission look evil, and with an argumentative tone...it's not like she's wolf-hunting, more like wolf-inventing.

Paranoia? Point taken.

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Galadriel is actually scarily supportive of me.

Yes, seeing as I don't want you - an innocent in my books so far - be lynched. I don't know if I've been that "scarily supportive". I think I've only made one point that you don't look like a wolf, and everyone jumped on it, making me repeat it.

Edit: xed with a host...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Quite the opposite. I may not agree with everything he says, but I don't think he's guilty, and I said almost exactly that.

You're twisting my words so hard I think a few vertebrae have popped.

Nope, I don't see anything like that. I was speaking generally, and the stuff about "not lynched you" was referring more to what you said about voting G55 at that point than about Eomer. With Eomer, it was more like this "this person seems fine"-thing.

Now, going to decide whom I want to vote...

EDIT: again x-ed since my last.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I believe that was only one time, the other two just explaining my reason for it farther...

I believe he counted it as three times that you defended Sally. Three seperate posts and all that. And it isn't just the defending, it's the way that you had been so convinced of her innocence. The only way you could have known that would be if you knew she wasn't a packmate of yours - the other way you could have known that, it'd have been too dangerous to flaunt your certainty quite so loudly. You've backed off now some -

an innocent in my books so far

- but still.

And which one would that be? That I am suspecting Kit, Bom, or that I think that Sally is an innocent?

Not quite - the hunch that you've grown fur where you oughtn't have.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Okay, this is probably the worst. So what, you figured he hadn't seen it and still posted what you did? Makes no sense to me. Didn't sound like it. Sounded like a genuine defence. And now you are relativising the defence - because you were suspected even despite it? I don't really get it.

As I thought... and why I started asking if she really had turned to the dark side.

I might have expressed myself not in the clearest terms in the end of my last post, so let me rephrase it here.

Sally says I shouldn't cry wolf before I see her counterargument.

First of all that counterargument is worthless as it can go both ways (and is not backed by any evidence) and it is actually something one would presume a wolf might do in that tight a situation - being suspected on D1 and all that jazz (it can't be "backed with evidence" this other way either, to be sure).

But the second point I find more damning. I said this turned out a good Day1 as we got sides (fractions, alliances... whatever). That would be good later as there would be something to mull over when the first wolf gets lynched or if enough innocents fitting a pattern are Nightkilled/lynched. But her take on that was that I was crying her a wolf... I do feel like reading a confession here.


Okay. I have to do a few other things as well and it's getting late (2AM shortly). I'll be back to vote and will most probably vote for Sally unless something new emerges.

PS. I see G55 has posted. After a quick skim I think I may need to think the potential relationship between her and Sally again - and what it means to my high suspicion on Sally at the moment. And I thought I would be done away with all the stuff early enough to vote like now and go to sleep... Well back, in half an hour or something.

[Mithalwen]

I have votes for Sally (Kit) Bom (Greenie) and Galadriel (Eomer) ? Sally had seemed most suspicious so far I am not sure if the marked change is a sign of wronged innocence getting a grip or a desperate wolf. But I am obliged to look at Lottie (on my read the rules rule ) And now time really is pressing.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Thinking about Sally while I was gone - based on reading her feel and not content, Sally reads more innocent than baddie to me. As a wolf I've seen her get steadily and steadily more... not "hysterical", but more "flail-y" in a sense that she'll be more and more sarcastic and dismissive of points against her as time goes on. I've seen a little of that from her today, but she strikes me as calmer than a wolf-Sally under pressure would be.

Based on content... I think I need to see more actual thought from Sally-dear, rather than fishing expeditions, before I decide. I don't think I'll be voting for her today.

I could vote for Kitanna, as she's really the one I tend to feel the worst about, but she seems to have no support as a lynch toDay and would thus be a throwaway. I don't want to vote Bom as the action that's got people so riled up about him has been his only action all Day - and on participation grounds wouldn't mind lynching him, but I think I'd rather see if he shapes up tomorrow.

I do need to vote soon (within the next fifteen minutes), however, and so I think I'm going to go look at Lottie.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Generally dividing people to groups by the level of suspicion - i.e. how much suspicious they seem to me:

Red zone:
Sally
Loslote

Orange zone:
Bom Tom
Kitanna

Yellow zone:
G55
Eomer
Lommy

Green zone:
Nogrod
Shasta
Mith

Grey zone - not enough data:
Nerwen
Greenie
Nilp

I shall be picking my votes probably from the red zone. However, I am sending a sharp rebuke to the people in the grey zone. I really would like to see them posting something substantial, otherwise, I might just as well have them in my target field just for the sake of being avoidant.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But the second point I find more damning. I said this turned out a good Day1 as we got sides (fractions, alliances... whatever). That would be good later as there would be something to mull over when the first wolf gets lynched or if enough innocents fitting a pattern are Nightkilled/lynched. But her take on that was that I was crying her a wolf... I do feel like reading a confession here.

Well, to be fair, I think what you said looked as if you were implying she is a Wolf - it seemed like that also to me when I read it. But you are probably right in what you say about reacting to it: a Wolf would probably react to reading what she thought is an accusation differently than an innocent would (even if it actually wasn't an accusation, the point is the reaction and the thought process of the person).

[Galadriel55]

Bom Tombadillo - spread suspicion and then disappeared. I wish he would post a bit more, and at least react somehow.
Nogrod - I need to reread his posts, as I'm having a hard time understanding some of his arguments. So far so good for the vibes.
Shasta - makes some good points (even though I don't agree with everything he says)
Kitanna - suspects Bom for suspecting Saly, but suspects Sally herself. First is inclined to vote for Bom, but changes her mind and votes Sally. Interesting (I'm not sure if it's in a good or a bad way...)
Sally - looks innocentish, but you've probably heard enough of that from me.
Eomer - no impression. Popped in to make a couple comments and to vote me.
Nerwen - as has been said before, guarded and careful. Too quiet. No impression.
Loslote - didn't say too many things either. No impression. A bit weird that she has nothing to say.
Greenie - doesn't think of Bom as very suspicious, yet vote for him. Also interesting.
Lommy - also not too many posts. Didn't comment a lot.
Nilp - where are you?
Legate - suspects Sally because I called her an innocent. Otherwise, looks good.
Mith avoided all the me-bom-kit-sally tangle. Didn't take sides. Didn't commit herself to anything. Made some fair points, but stayed aside.

So that's some opinionophobia from me.

Bom, Eomer, and Nerwen posted too little for me to get a descent impression. Nilp didn't post anything of [worthwhile] content. That is too many players fo less than an hour before DL!!!

Edit: xed since my last

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Lottie-lysis
Her first four posts were banter, so I didn't bother with them.

#87 - Does not want to lynch Sally "at all", Bom, mentions a tiny suspicion of Gala ("her posts hit me over the head a little like a baby fish"), didn't realize Kit was playing.

#99 - Mentions her hunch on Gala again, and complains it's been quiet. Eomer votes for Gala at the same time (4:41), but there's no mention of cross-posting.

#106 - Explains her suspicion of Gala. I think it's rather funny she says this -

Originally Posted by Lottie

I don't know, I might be wrong on this one, but that's what it looks like to me.

- when combined with what Legate says here -

Originally Posted by Legate

"The person seems fine to me" or "I don't know, maybe it is nothing" is rather Wolf-y stuff, as in, "I am not the one who lynched you" (or alternatively, "I won't lynch my packmates, but I won't speak too loud for their defence either, lest I be judged myself").

.

#131 - Although Lottie has said several times that she "gives Gala a newbie-pass" and "will feel bad if she's lynched her first Day 1 ever", here she continues to build her suspicion of Gala.


Conclusion - Lottie has set herself up today so that really the only person she can vote is Gala (she hasn't evidenced suspicion on anyone else); which, when combined with all that about "oh I'll feel so bad if she's lynched" and giving her a newbie-pass, really makes me raise both eyebrows. Lottie looks extremely contradictory.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

++Lottie

See above for reasons.

Shasta, out.

[Thinlómien]

Mmh. Tempted to follow Shasta's lead. He definitely didn't make Lottie sound too good.

Will be back in 15min and concentrate more or less until the deadline. Promise!

[Galadriel55]

Votes:
Sally (Kit)
G55 (Eomer)
Bom (Greenie)
Lottie (Shasta)

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

[#131 - Although Lottie has said several times that she "gives Gala a newbie-pass" and "will feel bad if she's lynched her first Day 1 ever", here she continues to build her suspicion of Gala.

I do feel bad about it. But newbie passes are fickle things, and if I don't see anyone else who jumps out as suspicious, I've got to follow up on the one person I do suspect.

Edit: Xed with Galadriel's vote count

[satansaloser2005]

Vote count:

Kit-->Sally
Eomer-->Galadriel
Greenie-->Bom
Shasta-->Lottie

Left to vote:
Bom
Nog
Galadriel
Sally
Nerwen
Lottie
Lommie
Nilp (though I doubt we'll be surprised )
Mith
Legate


X'd with the Lad lass and Lottie....oops

[Shastanis Althreduin]

From phone - Lottie, its also that you've set yourself up to appear oh-so-very sorry if Gala is lynched innocent.... which is just the kind of possible falseness you've accused others for countless times.

[Thinlómien]

Lottie - it's not a problem to want to give a newbie a newbie pass but decide not to give it because the newbie is the most suspicious person around - but if you ask me, it does look weird if you keep saying you want to give her a newbie pass but still keep bringing up points against her. It's kind of weird. You should decide if you want to give her the newbie pass or not, or at least wonder aloud if you want to give it anymore or not, but what you're doing now is just confusing.

[Nogrod]

Two things (I try to be short).

That note by Lottie that she didn't know Kitanna is playing looks quite odd to me. I remeber seeing that comment being made or commented upon a few times earlier - and have no time to check them I'm afraid (never say never) - but why would any goodie say anything like that in the first place, not to mention it is a question of someone who has been the most substantive poster at those earlier stages of the game? I could see a thoughtless buddy of a baddie say something like that to disengage herself from the other person though... but even that would require a reason she should feel she needs to do that. Is there one? If there is, then Kit & Lottie might be mates in crime.

The other one: Kit has been suspected of suspecting both Sally & Bom (between whom there seems to be some suspecting), but that is perfectly natural: it's not that uncommon in WW to suspect two players who are at each others' throats. X and Y can be suspicious while you know they both most probably aren't. So those who simple-mindedly turn this into a reason to suspect Kit I find a bit suspicious themselves - especially if it looks like that with that suggestion they'r trying to save someone they have a relation with.

Like I said before, it looks like we have some "coalitions" or "parties" here already and me likes that. Lot of things to read later on.

But sure, we have more pressing matters now. I just thought these were things important enpough to state if I'm not here toMorrow.

[Mithalwen]

OK it has been a long hot day and my head hurts, I feel I must stay with my strongest pick. I found the initial announcement odd and the complete volteface on playing style too bizarre.

++Satansaloser

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Lottie - it's not a problem to want to give a newbie a newbie pass but decide not to give it because the newbie is the most suspicious person around - but if you ask me, it does look weird if you keep saying you want to give her a newbie pass but still keep bringing up points against her. It's kind of weird. You should decide if you want to give her the newbie pass or not, or at least wonder aloud if you want to give it anymore or not, but what you're doing now is just confusing.

Okay. Clarification - I am not giving her a newbie pass, but I still feel bad about it, and I don't want to come off as mean, especially when it's only Galadriel's first game.

EDIT: Xed with Nog and Mith - and now it gets crazy, right?

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

not to mention it is a question of someone who has been the most substantive poster at those earlier stages of the game?

Oh, that was about the first post I saw by her - I did a double-take when I realized she was playing. Thought I'd mention it in passing. Of course I noticed her after that.

[Thinlómien]

Argh, Lottie, couldn't you have replied a bit more suspiciously? I was hoping I could stop thinking and just vote you, and now I'm running out of time. Sorry people this has been and will be a crappy Day from me. If I'm alive toMorrow I will try to make it better...

[Nogrod]

Lottie: Why did you say this, especially the bolded part?

Kit's post I saw and instantly "whaaaaaaat"ed because I forgot she was playing in this game. But I don't know how to read her yet, I just wanted to mention that.

I find no good reason and even whims are hard to find why to make such one... That is so random unless it meant something.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Lottie: Why did you say this, especially the bolded part?

I find no good reason and even whims are hard to find why to make such one... That is so random unless it meant something.

Because I usually read over the sign-up lists and the Admin threads, and it was weird realizing that I totally overlooked her signing up. I guess other people don't find that weird, though.

[Nogrod]

Is the latest vote-count right?

I think Greenie voted first and she is there third... do the numbers of votes count?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Argh, Lottie, couldn't you have replied a bit more suspiciously? I was hoping I could stop thinking and just vote you, and now I'm running out of time.

Something like that. I am here trying to decide whether to vote Sally or Lottie... and Lottie is both more and less suspicious than sally, if you understand me: it is far more likely that she is a Wolf, but at the same time, it is also far more likely that she is innocent (like, I would not be surprised if she was). Sally, on the other hand, is less likely to be a Wolf, but also less likely innocent...

Anyway, I am now maybe more inclined to vote Lottie, but still, I would love it if there came a random inspiration on me in the following minute...

[Inziladun]

DL in 10 minutes.

[Mithalwen]

Not knowing who is playing is just an alternative to the rule query. This information is out there folks. It really doesn't set a good impression to ask such questions. One is usually not forces to play these games a little attention would be nice. I don't always do a lot of notes but my filofax is full of player lists and voting records. Yes this day may give us a lot to go on after all.... but too late today for me to act on it.

[Galadriel55]

If I voted in the first half of the Day, it would have been either Bom or Kit. But Bom hasn't said anything after his suspicious post, and Kit made more sense in her last 2 posts...

I could vote for Greenie, Eomer, Lommy, and possibly Nilp, but there has been limited participation from all of them.

Lommy's posts are somewhat fishy - she has no opinions well into the Day, and decides to vote for Lottie as soon as Shasta casts suspicion on her, but then decides against it. She will probably be my candidate.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, voting now, to minimalise the mess and make votes more relevant in their reading.

++Lottie

[Thinlómien]

++LOTTIE

Sorry m'dear but you're more suspicious than Sally...


edit: xed with G55 and Legate

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Not knowing who is playing is just an alternative to the rule query. This information is out there folks. It really doesn't set a good impression to ask such questions. One is usually not forces to play these games a little attention would be nice.

But I do pay attention! That's why it's so weird to me when I slip up like that, and why I commented. I didn't ask "Is Kit playing, then?", I just mentioned that I hadn't noticed her earlier.

Edit: Xed with Galadriel and the two votes - I'm going to get whiplash with all these Day 1 lynches!