Sauron 'the dark lord?' - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

arelendil · 09-09-2002, 12:41 PM

why is sauron the dark lord what happened to Morgoth! i know he got chucked into the void but still you'd think someone would remember him!!

Legolas · 09-09-2002, 01:51 PM

Being in the void, he really couldn't fill out the job requirements.

A Mafia leader is thrown in jail for a life sentence...does he keep his title? No. Someone else takes over.

dark_one · 09-09-2002, 01:56 PM

Well Melkor/Morgoth was the first Dark Lord and when he was in charge Sauron was a Dark Lord in Training, so to speak. So when his master got sent into the Void, Sauron took over to sort of "finish the job" for his master and conquer Middle Earth [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Arwen Imladris · 09-10-2002, 02:20 PM

I thought that it was more like Sauron was the servant. I don't think that he really compared at all to Melkor. Melkor was a Valar, Sauron was a maiar. There is a big difference. Sauron might have been evil enough, but he lacked the same amount of power. What do you think?

Amarie · 09-11-2002, 07:02 AM

It is true that Morgoth was more powerful than Sauron the Maia. I do not think that this alone proves that Sauron continued to be a servant after Melkor's banishment. He could have been in it for himself, less powerfull than the original dark lord or not.

lathspell · 09-12-2002, 07:26 AM

In the Beginning of the First Age Sauron was a Maia in the service of Aulë. He was corrupted by Melkor in a very early stage and became his chief servant (later he was called 'the Lieutenant of Angband'). After the wars and the downfall of Thangorodrim, Melkor or Morgoth was cast into the void. Sauron almost turned aside from evil, but after a while he went to Barad-Dur and he wanted to conquer the lands there. He was doing very well, but than the Men of Numenor came sailing to Middle-earth. After a very long time the Numenoreans began to make a war upon Sauron and they took him to Numenor as a prisoner. There he was as a prisoner... at first. But Sauron was cunning and talked his way from prisoner to primary counsellor of the King of Numenor. In that position he sickened the hearts of the Numenoreans. They were corrupted and deceived, for Sauron told them that the Valar were scared of them and that could conquer Aman and be immortal and that the 'Lord of All' was Melkor. Many believed him and went to conquer Aman, but some were faithful and they were called the Elendili. The Valar did nothing but call for the aid of Eru and he created a great whirlpool and in it all the ships of the Numenoreans were destroyed and the whole island sunk to the bottom of the ocean. Sauron himself could hardly escape, but he lost his form that day. The Elendili were swept far over the Sea to the shores of Middle-earth. Elendil was their leader and their they made the realm of Gondor for the thread of Sauron was long away. But Sauron returned in a fair disguise and he had given himself the name of Anatar which means (I don't have the books and do not know if I'm wholly right here): Lord of Gifts. He was befriended with the Elves in that time for he learned them many things and they were eager to learn it. So he learned them to make the Rings of Power and he ensnared them, or tried to ensnare them, in that way. The Elves were aware of him when he had the One Ring around his finger and hid the three, and at last they formed the Last Alliance and Sauron was thrown down ones more and the Ring could have been destroyed then, but Isildur kept it, and he was betrayed. Afterwards the Ring came through long ways in the hands of Bilbo. And Sauron was at that growing again in Dol Guldur.

The rest of the tale is known to all here, I guess.

Now for the answer:
In all things Sauron did he was always nurtured by Morgoth. Morgoth still could return as prophecies told, but only when the High King (Manwe) was thrown down from his throne on Taniquetil on Aman. Sauron was always the servant of Morgoth, but he was the thread in later days, not Morgoth. So Sauron was then the Dark Lord, for he was the main problem.

Hoping this rather long answer will help

Greetings,
lathspell

Eruhen · 09-12-2002, 10:06 AM

Yay, lathspell! You got it right on all counts, except for the fact that Manwë will be thrown down from Taniquetil. At the Dagor Dagrath, he will come down from Taniquetil to lead the forces of the Valar and Eldar against Morgoth and the Balrogs. Then whoever has read LT2 knows the rest of the story.

Other than that, great job!

lathspell · 09-12-2002, 12:24 PM

Thank you, Eruhen.
I already doubted that part of my answer for I haven't read the LT yet. Now I know I want forget [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

greetings,
lathspell

Voralphion · 09-15-2002, 10:36 PM

lathspell is mostly right in what he says about Sauron except for the fact that he befriended the elves and made the rings of power BEFORE he caused the downfall of Numenor. I believe that he lost his fair shape forever when it was destroyed in the fall of Numenor.
Apart from that I believe you are right abou everything else.

09-09-2002, 12:41 PM	#1
arelendil Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Eryn Lasgalen Posts: 202	Sauron 'the dark lord?' why is sauron the dark lord what happened to Morgoth! i know he got chucked into the void but still you'd think someone would remember him!! __________________ Nai Vardo eleni ilye lumenn' enomentielvo siluvar!

09-09-2002, 01:51 PM	#2
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,850	Being in the void, he really couldn't fill out the job requirements. A Mafia leader is thrown in jail for a life sentence...does he keep his title? No. Someone else takes over. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

09-09-2002, 01:56 PM	#3
dark_one Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: the firey underworld Posts: 23	Well Melkor/Morgoth was the first Dark Lord and when he was in charge Sauron was a Dark Lord in Training, so to speak. So when his master got sent into the Void, Sauron took over to sort of "finish the job" for his master and conquer Middle Earth [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] __________________ “Dreams, ideas, & plans not only are an escape, they give me a purpose, a reason to hang on” -Steven Callahan “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. The they fight you. Then you win” -Gandhi

09-10-2002, 02:20 PM	#4
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	I thought that it was more like Sauron was the servant. I don't think that he really compared at all to Melkor. Melkor was a Valar, Sauron was a maiar. There is a big difference. Sauron might have been evil enough, but he lacked the same amount of power. What do you think? __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

09-12-2002, 07:26 AM	#6
lathspell Regenerating Ringkeeper Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 757	In the Beginning of the First Age Sauron was a Maia in the service of Aulë. He was corrupted by Melkor in a very early stage and became his chief servant (later he was called 'the Lieutenant of Angband'). After the wars and the downfall of Thangorodrim, Melkor or Morgoth was cast into the void. Sauron almost turned aside from evil, but after a while he went to Barad-Dur and he wanted to conquer the lands there. He was doing very well, but than the Men of Numenor came sailing to Middle-earth. After a very long time the Numenoreans began to make a war upon Sauron and they took him to Numenor as a prisoner. There he was as a prisoner... at first. But Sauron was cunning and talked his way from prisoner to primary counsellor of the King of Numenor. In that position he sickened the hearts of the Numenoreans. They were corrupted and deceived, for Sauron told them that the Valar were scared of them and that could conquer Aman and be immortal and that the 'Lord of All' was Melkor. Many believed him and went to conquer Aman, but some were faithful and they were called the Elendili. The Valar did nothing but call for the aid of Eru and he created a great whirlpool and in it all the ships of the Numenoreans were destroyed and the whole island sunk to the bottom of the ocean. Sauron himself could hardly escape, but he lost his form that day. The Elendili were swept far over the Sea to the shores of Middle-earth. Elendil was their leader and their they made the realm of Gondor for the thread of Sauron was long away. But Sauron returned in a fair disguise and he had given himself the name of Anatar which means (I don't have the books and do not know if I'm wholly right here): Lord of Gifts. He was befriended with the Elves in that time for he learned them many things and they were eager to learn it. So he learned them to make the Rings of Power and he ensnared them, or tried to ensnare them, in that way. The Elves were aware of him when he had the One Ring around his finger and hid the three, and at last they formed the Last Alliance and Sauron was thrown down ones more and the Ring could have been destroyed then, but Isildur kept it, and he was betrayed. Afterwards the Ring came through long ways in the hands of Bilbo. And Sauron was at that growing again in Dol Guldur. The rest of the tale is known to all here, I guess. Now for the answer: In all things Sauron did he was always nurtured by Morgoth. Morgoth still could return as prophecies told, but only when the High King (Manwe) was thrown down from his throne on Taniquetil on Aman. Sauron was always the servant of Morgoth, but he was the thread in later days, not Morgoth. So Sauron was then the Dark Lord, for he was the main problem. Hoping this rather long answer will help Greetings, lathspell __________________ 'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.'

09-11-2002, 07:02 AM	#5
Amarie Animated Skeleton Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 33	It is true that Morgoth was more powerful than Sauron the Maia. I do not think that this alone proves that Sauron continued to be a servant after Melkor's banishment. He could have been in it for himself, less powerfull than the original dark lord or not.

09-12-2002, 10:06 AM	#7
Eruhen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: At the Mountains of Madness Posts: 399	Yay, lathspell! You got it right on all counts, except for the fact that Manwë will be thrown down from Taniquetil. At the Dagor Dagrath, he will come down from Taniquetil to lead the forces of the Valar and Eldar against Morgoth and the Balrogs. Then whoever has read LT2 knows the rest of the story. Other than that, great job! __________________ Agannâlô burôda nênud; zâira nênud. Adûn izindi batân tâidô ayadda: îdô kâtha batîna lôkhî. Êphalak îdôn Yôzâyan. Êphal êphalak îdôn hi-Akallabêth.

09-12-2002, 12:24 PM	#8
lathspell Regenerating Ringkeeper Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 757	Thank you, Eruhen. I already doubted that part of my answer for I haven't read the LT yet. Now I know I want forget [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] greetings, lathspell __________________ 'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.'

09-15-2002, 10:36 PM	#9
Voralphion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sharkey's End Posts: 267	lathspell is mostly right in what he says about Sauron except for the fact that he befriended the elves and made the rings of power BEFORE he caused the downfall of Numenor. I believe that he lost his fair shape forever when it was destroyed in the fall of Numenor. Apart from that I believe you are right abou everything else. __________________ His sword was long his lance was keen His shining helm afar was seen The countless stars of heavens field Were mirrored in his silver shield