** Revising The Voyage of Earendil

[Findegil]

VE-13.045 As you have already guested this change was based on our working assumption that there existed only 3 to 7 Balrogs (see the famous thread Bye Bye Balrogs). After the Fall of Gondolin were Gothmog and the Balrog of Glorfindel were killed, we have to assume that in the War of Wrath only 1 to 5 Balrogs fought. We know for sure that 1 fled and hid himself under the mountains of Moria. Leaving none to 4 Barlogs to utterly destroyed or as well to hid themselves. We tried to keep the possibilities open by saying that they were destroyed if they did not hid themself. But as at seems we did not make it correctly. Please advise if how we can better this passage, without specifying any numbers of Balrog slain or hid away.

Eredlindon: You are right that we have to introduce a change. But the hyphen is not correct. I think we should add to the general changes:
{Eredlindon}[Ered Lindon] per Sil77. It also corosponds to the spelling in LotR (see e.g. Ered Nimrais).

Introducing this I found also:
{Eredwethion}[Ered Wethrin] per Sil77.

Posted by ArcusCalion:

In the later myths this geographical place was called Lindon, ...

Can you give us a source for that?

Posted by ArcusCalion:

I seemed to remember that in MT there's a footnote about the seeming inaccuracy of this statement in terms of even the flat earth cosmology. Tolkien remarks that it undoubtedly arises from the recording discrepancies of the Mannish scholars. I cannot at present find the quote, but would it be a good idea to include that as a footnote?

I don't think a foot note is the right way here, but an inclusion could be possible. Please provide the quote.

Respecfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Maybe

VE-13.04 <AB2 The waters of Sirion lay between the hosts; and long and bitterly they contested the passage. But at last [Eönwë] crossed Sirion and the hosts of Morgoth were driven as leaves, and the Balrogs were utterly destroyed> <BT, save VE-13.045 {some few} [any] that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth> , <AB1 and Morgoth[‘s army] fled to Angband pursued by the hosts of [Eönwë].>

My source is simply the fact that in the original conception, Leithian was meant to be a name for England, as it tells in the Tale of Eriol in the Book of Lost Tales Part II. Unless we assume the term refers to the entire north, it must be assumed that it refers to the place where Gil-Galad made his kingdom in Lindon, where the largest portion of the Elves were said to live. Christopher himself replaced it with "Middle-earth" to avoid the use of the word. However, I might simply be reading too much into it.

This is the quote:

When that body was destroyed he was weak and utterly "houseless," and for that time at a loss and "unanchored" as it were. We read that he was then thrust out into the Void. That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Ea altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru (with or without supplication of the Valar). It may refer inaccurately to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda.

{Note} Since the minds of Men (and even of the Elves) were inclined to confuse the "Void," as a conception of the state of Not-being, outside of Ea, with the conception of vast spaces within Ea, especially those conceived to lie all about the encircled "Kingdom of Arda" (which we should probably call the Solar System).

This is from section 3 of the "Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion. The fact that he says "we read that.." means that we cannot add a correction into the text, hence my desire to include a footnote. Perhaps an edited version of the Myths Transformed essays could be included in Volume 3: The Lore of the Wise, so that this appearance of contradiction may be addressed?

[Findegil]

VE-13.045: Okay, your 'any' seems good.

VE-19: I agree to the chnage {Leithien}[Lindon].

About Morogth thrust through the Door of Night: I think we agree that we can not change the text. As you suggest I am very symphatic with a edited version of MT in Part 3.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Well, I was going to read through all the new discussions before jumping in again, but I've changed my mind.

I think ArcusCalion's suggestions are almost all good; thanks for catching these things!

The only one I would look at again is VE-13.045, where I think the "any" sounds too legalistic and out of place. I actually do think the "they" is grammatically all right - "save they fled" meaning "unless they fled".

Is the version of this chapter in the private forum up to date? I have a file of notes on further changes and things I'd caught (from 2009!), which I don't think I ever posted for discussion, but I want to make sure they apply to the latest version of the text before I do so.

[Findegil]

The version in the members only forum is not up to date. Since the discussion here was not ended I did not update it so far. See your mail.

Repscetfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

All right, below are my notes on the Earendil chapter. I think that a few of these points are things that ArcusCalion also noted, and have been addressed (Gwareth/Gwared, Leithien).

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

VE-01: At line 5 in the Lay fragment there is a missing {Gwareth}[Gwared] change.

Also, I now have doubts about moving these lines to the end:

It doesn’t really work if we simply put a period at the end of it; ‘say I further’ feels like it needs to have an object. Since we are using the fragment as the beginning of the Earendil chapter, rather than at the end of the Gondolin chapter, I think perhaps we can leave those lines where they originally were:

The opening paragraph reads rather well considering that it was fashioned out of so many diverse sources. One point, thought:

As Voronwe has not yet been named in this chapter, this really comes out of the blue. Moreover, I doubt whether it’s true. In the Lost Tales Voronwe was an escaped thrall of Angband; in the later story he was the captain of the last ship sent west at Turgon’s bidding. I know that the Noldor were not renowned for their skill as ship-builders or mariners, but surely Turgon would at least have been able to find a captain who could swim! I suggest we delete the parenthetical comment:

In VE-07:

I would not use the article with the name of the ship. Also, there’s a typo in ‘farwell’:

In VE-10:

I think that, following our general policy (see the general name changes thread) we should emend to ‘Elf’ rather than ‘Noldo’:

VE-11:

Immediately before this comes an inserted passage wherein the survivors tell of the capture of Elrond and Elros and Elwing’s casting herself in the sea. I think that the transition to this paragraph, giving now new information (in the narrator’s voice, not the survivors’) is a little unclear. Perhaps emending ‘her’ to ‘Elwing’ would improve it a little:

VE-11.025: I think the word ‘like’ was accidentally left out of the deletion brackets. It should be:

Another small thing:

I don’t think we really need the editorial addition here. It seems clear from the preceding clause that it was by reason of the power of the Silmaril that they escaped the enchantments. Moreover, unless some editorial marks are missing, doesn’t this sentence all come from the same source? I think some mark must be missing, because the base text for this chapter should be QS37, but unless I’m much mistaken, that’s not where the beginning of this sentence comes from. (I admit it’s a little bewildering to try to follow what text comes from what source in this chapter.)

VE-11.02: After the insertion concerning the sleeper in the Tower of Pearl we have:

This is a bit of a non sequitur since we have just told of the sleeper’s warning to them. At least we should change the ‘and’ to ‘but’:

VE-11.04: Another [Finarfin] misspelling.

VE-13.02: ‘Galion’ should be changed to ‘Galdor’.

VE-15: A typo here; the period after ‘even’ should be removed:

VE-19: I think we should probably remove the reference to the ‘land of Leithien’ here. It seems to be a remnant of the Lost Tales idea that Great Britain (Leithien) was a remnant of Beleriand.

VE-21: The text has:

I think the word ‘that’ is missing:

One point that I've just noticed in looking over this again is in VE-01, where I've realized I don't think the last line works. "Drenched their feet" is all well and good for the "dew enchanted", but the predicate must equally apply to the "sweet breezes", "whispering winds", and "wells of slumber". I'm not quite sure how to solve this yet, but I will think on it and see if I can come up with a suitable half-line.

[ArcusCalion]

Aiwendil It's funny, I find myself pointing out less of these errors than I catch, because I usually just correct them in my own personal "clean" "readable version" of the texts. Your changes are all great though, especially the removal of the "thus they" from "thus they escaped their enchantments." That has never sat well with me, but I didnt question it, thinking it was already finalized.

[Aiwendil]

Glad you agree with my suggestions!

VE-01: A possibility to fix the end of the alliterative fragment here:

There sun was softer, [there] the sweet breezes
and whispering winds, there wells of slumber
and the dew enchanted, [their dolour eased.]

[Findegil]

VE-01: Agreed to all your changes.

Don't you know that the best mariners can not swim? A good swimmer would probably leave a ship in danger to early. So I don't think Voronwë would necessarily be a swimmer.

VE-07: Corrected.

VE-10: Agreed.

VE-11: Agreed.

VE-11.025: Agreed.

'Maybe it was due ...': I agree to remove 'thus they'. I will research the sources. but that might take some time.

VE-11.02: Agreed.

VE-11.04: Corrected.

VE-13.02: Corrected.

VE-15: Corrected.

VE-19: Following ArcusCalion's idea we changed {Leitian}[Lindon].

VE-21: Agreed.

Respectfully
Findegil