Werewolf XLII: The meaning of life forever

[Thinlómien]

I'm back and I must say we should mark our votes, even as they don't count.

Originally Posted by Azaelia

I haven't expressed any suspicion because it's just the first day.

If this is not just misfortunate phrasing, it's a very suspicious statement. And I'm, truth be told, annoyed with her making no statements of suspicion at all during Day1. What if we all acted like that?

Originally Posted by Azaelia

I have already said that while I'm not throwing today away completely, I do not want to base any opinions on today alone. It must be a personal style thing. I'm not a fan of the finger-pointing that happens on Day 1s. I'm actually not a fan of Day 1s in general. I don't think we have enough from anyone yet to form a solid opinion.

What? Excuse me, but who actually is saying that any opinions should be based on toDay's posts alone? That would be utter folly. I really really don't understand Zali and I'm afraid her logic seems somewhat wolfy.

Originally Posted by Noggles

My only problem with that is that if someone can totally fool me it's Lommy.

Like in Gil's game?

Originally Posted by LittleGreenMan

Is it just my imagination or do I see a contradiction here? When reading the first paragraph of that quote (the thing after the red alert), my first thought was "oh dear, so it's this same old thing, let's vote for the good, fluent, experienced players we personally like to play with". The second statement made me feel slightly better (and slightly less annoyed ).

What? Do you really mean that people like Nogrod tend to vote smart & experienced ones he likes to play with? For it's the contrary.

Originally Posted by Green

Overall, I don't quite know what to think about Nogrod. He is taking a leader role, and I am not sure whether I should be alarmed by it or not.

I don't have any clear image of him yet either, but if you're alarmed with him trying to take the leadership, well, I can tell you that he always does that, regardless of his role.

Originally Posted by Noggie

I'm not perfectly happy with Groin Redbeard's open agreement with both me and Lommy. Also his easy jump on Brinn looks a bit suspicious. But then again I'd be more than ready to grant him the benefit of doubt as this is his first game if I have it right.

I'm not perfectly happy either - though not because it looks wolvish to me, but because if he is innocent (like I'd currently be inclined to believe), I fear he might be easily lead. Groin, don't take the opinions or advice of the more experinced without chewing it first - I did that in my first game and well, I'm very glad those two I almost blindly listened to were gifteds. But not every newbie has such luck.

Originally Posted by Brinniel

I guess one of my concerns is that people will be so caught up with events that occurred toDay, they won't notice later and more important clues that are right in front of their faces. It's happened before...where people are so concerned with one thing they are blinded by another.

Yes, yes, but I fail to see how it applies to this game especially...

I'd like to repeat something I've said before. Today, more and especially less accurate suspicion is flying around and some wolves might be out there that have chosen as their tactic trying to manipulate us. So, whatever we do toDay, we must read and ponder everything said toDay very carefully and critically before our trials. And in the trials, we should definitely not focus only on those who have posted or whose actions have been discussed toDay.

EDIT: mass xed with everything after Green's latest post

[The Might]

What is really so weird about the theory?
Would be an interesting idea, wouldn't it?

Anyway, as I'm off eating and afterwards have some stupid German homework to do I'll go ahead and vote now.

Anyway, I personally choose Nogrod, simply because I really don't like his playing style.
Seems to always enjoy speaking of "we innocents" and also seems to rather make up reasons to accuse many.

So, if I had to vote at this point I would say
++ Nogrod

I know he is the loudest, but I really don't like all this noise he's making and I will take a good look at thim as the game progresses.

[Nogrod]

About Zali then. She seems to be consistent in what she says.

What I find a bit suspicious is her non-commitment to say anything even about the importance of Day 0.0. She kind of walks around the subject looking like she tries to be in good terms with everyone. "Day1's are not my favourites but this time it might be important even if I'm not going to count too much on it..." etc. (that was not a direct quote but kind of a shorthand of what she has said)

A Little Green looks pretty good and Rikae has brought in a few really good points. So that means Izzy is the wolf among them? Maybe I'm not ready to draw that conclusion just yet... But I'd like to hear more from her.

EDIT: X'd with Lommy & Might

[Rikae]

I really don't believe how many players actually expect to see wolves taking back “suspicions” they voiced today in any obvious manner on Day 1. The wolf has, especially considering their (more likely than not) large numbers, more to gain eventually than to lose by going after the others in an honest way. Of all people, really, Nogrod should not be talking to us about wolves protecting one another!
Seriously, I fear that all this talk of the usefulness of votes to catch wolves whochange their opinions later is being fueled, at least in part, by those with evil intent as a way of setting up easy lynches from day 1 onwards. Of course people will change their opinions down the road, but I doubt any of the wolves would be foolish enough to do so in an obvious way - and they may be as likely to pursue their suspicions for each other anyway. It is entirely possible for two players to feud for an entire game while everyone else considers them both innocent.
I'm not sure what to make of it, but I don't like hearing such usually sensible people as Nogrod, Aganzir and Legate spouting such clearly incomplete advice.
While I'm airing my opinions, I will say that I also dislike TM's "I'm an ordo!" ploy (that is, his wacky theory that all are innocent.) Although I'll admit that Volo is capable of anything, this simply doesn't look honest to me.
Menel is actually the only player who is really giving an "innocentish" vibe to me.
If I'm to be pitted against Green and Izzy, I would certainly like to see more from the latter before the day closes.

Well, my vote then - for what it's worth:

++Azaelia

Because she is, as I said earlier, both too agreeable and too defensive. It is the fatal combination between fear for one's own survival but seeming lack of concern for uncovering the truth - not a good combination. I also reserve the right to change my mind whenever I see fit.

EDIT: X'd with Lommy, TM & Noggie

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by The Might

seems to rather make up reasons to accuse many.

Thank's for your vote!

I think this just illustrates the reasons why some people back away from the bussiness we need to do. But we should brave these realities where people who try get voted.

Trying not to see or say anything on Day 0.0 is the worst thing we can do. Sorry Might but we need to get the ball rolling. And the ball will not get rolling unless someone throws it.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Rikae

The wolf has, especially considering their (more likely than not) large numbers, more to gain eventually than to lose by going after the others in an honest way. Of all people, really, Nogrod should not be talking to us about wolves protecting one another!

But really. I'm not sure if the wolves will feel they gain from a situation where they have managed to honestly reveal each other's ways of trying to look good on Day0.0! On the contrary I think it would be quite a nasty situation for them.

Well sadly there's only a few people who have actually voiced any suspicion at all and thence there is nothing too much to read.

Seriously, I fear that all this talk of the usefulness of votes to catch wolves whochange their opinions later is being fueled, at least in part, by those with evil intent as a way of setting up easy lynches from day 1 onwards. Of course people will change their opinions down the road, but I doubt any of the wolves would be foolish enough to do so in an obvious way - and they may be as likely to pursue their suspicions for each other anyway. It is entirely possible for two players to feud for an entire game while everyone else considers them both innocent.

It is entirely possible but not common that those rivals last for long. But you may be right with there possibly being a wolf among those who drive for voting toDay (we should not release anyone just because s/he speaks sense toDay). A bold wolf that is who wishes to take her/his chances by the classical wolf-tactics of speaking against her/his own good in public and thus looking good indeed. But yet again I'd trust the judgement of the people here not to fall into "easy lynches" on grounds of Day 0.0 alone.

[Isabellkya]

Saying you're going to vote for non-voters, seems to me, to be a bit on the path of laying ground for future manipulative endeavors, Nogrod. Today is a free vote day, we can do whatever we like with our vote (if we so choose to do so); reading too much into any votes made today, can and will lead only to folly.

Wolves are dangerous regardless of loud/quiet.. a dead wolf is a dead wolf, much more preferable than scratching at the door, readying to maul us. Yet there is a line between naturally quiet, and too quiet. I don't think any of us have the ability to snag thoughts out of others' minds.. so it does help to say words and thoughts. But lynching people based on how vocal they are.. is a bit rubbish.

Sorry.. skimming everything so I can get a post or two in before deadline.. which is just shy of twenty minutes, I think?


X'd with everything after my last post (#69).

[A Little Green]

1.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

The wolves don't know who will be their fellows, but surely they don't want to lose any of them (in the trials or later). So the "best" a wolf can do is to try to avoid suspecting people in general - who knows if their suspects really are wolves and lynched because their fellow began suspecting them? Also, it'll be very uncomfortable for a wolf if they suspect other wolves vocally know. What will they do when they learn to know one another? Just change their mind: "I have reconsidered this and am sure that my previous top suspect is actually innocent."

So that's why I think it's a nice tactic for a lone wolf to downplay the importance of this day, and that's why I think everyone should speak and suspect. I don't believe that all wolves are doing that (or that all who do that are wolves), but I can't see it being anything but useful if we discuss as much as possible now. Does it make more sense now?

Thanks, I think I got the point. Even though that seems to my little green eyes as a somewhat predictable tactic.

2.

Originally Posted by Lommy

What? Do you really mean that people like Nogrod tend to vote smart & experienced ones he likes to play with? For it's the contrary.

Of course I didn't, I thought you of all people knew that I've never played with Noggie-Woggie before. It was not about him in particular but rather a more general statement.

3. Eek, I suppose I should suspect. I have not really voiced my suspicions today (possibly because I don't have much of those at the moment). So.

3.1. Groin. His behaviour at some points (not all the time, thankfully) reminds me of my first game ever as a wolf. But then, I have no clear notion of how a first-timer ordo behaves, so I wouldn't like to throw too much suspicion on him as yet.

3.2. Noggins. Just too difficult. If he's like that in all of his games, well, then I am inclined to trust my guts about him.

3.3. Azaelia. Actually, it took me a while to realise who was this Zali everyone was talking about. She does seem weird, but not overwhelmingly so.

4. Aargh I'm running out of time, so a hasty little (green) vote:

++Groin

Bah.

[Aganzir]

Aiee, I didn't realise the deadline is so near.

I take back some of my suspicion about Lommy after her last post. But if I have time I'll look through her posts quickly and elaborate on why I suspect her in the first place.

Who strikes me as suspicious at the moment is Groin. I know he's a newbie and therefore suspicious behaviour doesn't necessarily indicate guilt, but anyway.

Originally Posted by Groin

Brinniel- I'm satisfied with the explanation she gives. I still go with my gut feeling anyway and say that she's a wolf.

One of my favourite ways of wolf hunting is reading not only what but how people post. I won't start explaining what my Finnish teacher has told about the reader position (I'm not sure if that's the word, or even a word at all. Anyway, I'm speaking about the perspective from which one automatically views everything s/he reads & writes). And I think the way that was written is suspicious; "Your reply was good, but I don't want to give up suspecting you because I don't suspect anyone else."

Originally Posted by Groin

Nogrod- The loudest and most helpful of the players.

I recognise there the way I always try to please and be in good terms with players I am afraid of when I'm a wolf. Which, of course, isn't what every wolf does, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a newbie wolf doing that.

Ok, and at the moment I feel like suspecting a newbie because of newbieishness.

edit: xed with Noggy, Isabell, Greenie

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I would like to add, and warn, that although toDay's votes (if there will be enough ) do not have a value for themselves, but their main importance will show up after the trial days (I see the term I used found its ground quite nicely ). So, I say there should not be much suspicions based on toDay's votes on the Days 0.1-0.7, quite the contrary, misusing it may prove dangerous, but after the village is together again, those of the wolves who survive will be confronted with the need to modify their opinions (at least some of them, probably, and more of them, hopefully). And then there is the time to look at toDay's votes and say: look, this and this person did this and this.

So now I am to vote, eh? Well, Nogrod's later posts look better to me, though there are some strange things (but lesser ones, like the unnecessary use of the word "we" in the sentence "we innocents..." - he could have said that without the "we"; and also the abundance of smileys in his latter posts). The next candidate would be Menel, but I know him being suspicious always, but he's the second waiting in line. But, if this were to be a real vote, with the hope to lynch the person I cast my vote to, I would say rather

++Nogrod

[Roa_Aoife]

WOOT! Made it!

Alright, firstly, to those that think I'm being overly agreeable- please take into account that I haven't played in a while and am re-aclimating to the game. It may take a little bit. Also, given my history of getting everyone angry at me, I'm trying to be more mellow this game. Also, I made an attempt at stirring a good discussion with my comment about wolvish strategy, but it mostly went ignored, so what can I do?

Anyways, my suspicion of Menel stands, and has only increased.

My suspicion of the Ka has lessened a little, but not much. I hope to see more from her though.

Agan, for the record I don't advocate trusting me, ever. Doing doesn't necessarily make you suspicious, but if your a wolf trying to gain an ally, try someone else.

There are a few others that I find suspicious, but I need time confirm, and I'm afraid if I say anything they'll avoid it.

I don't have time for more (sorry folks) so for now

++MENEL

[THE Ka]

Yay, more people have arrived.

I have some extra time inbetween classes and resume sending today so I thought I'd check in.

Whether Lommy is a wolf or whatever she may be, I'd like to say thank you for post #49. Mainly because I'm trying to scan as quickly as I can and add that to the other piles of theories. Thanks, it helps. A lot for lazy brains like mine.

Originally Posted by Brinn

I guess one of my concerns is that people will be so caught up with events that occurred toDay, they won't notice later and more important clues that are right in front of their faces. It's happened before...where people are so concerned with one thing they are blinded by another. Am I making any sense here?

Yes, some sense. I think things are starting to come forth a bit more. I was kind of put off by the consistent loud vs. quiet arguement, which probably if put in a RL context would be a bunch of people yelling back and forth. Sorry, I find it kind of annoying once a theory has been beaten out over and over again. It doesn't let others, ordinary or possible wolves speak when there's only one arguement going round, and it doesn't make much progress. Except the progress of knowing that loud vs. quiet is an arguement.
Which, I am glad more people have come by and contributed. If all else, it won't flop the trial days like a flan in a cuboard.

With that in mind, I did suspect Roa for a little bit, by either the use of repeated arguement and anything else at disposal. Then, I figured that would be way too easy a move for anyone, especially wolves.
By throwing everyone into their respective corners of standing, is blalant a move. Or, it is also a good one, since it seems too easy as a form of suicide for anyone, thus others nod it off as good trickery (can I use that, or am I writing like Joyce again?). So for now, I don't have much to make any conviction about Roa or other loud/quiet ones in the earlier 'loud vs. quiet' arguement. So, for now I can say I don't have much to make any logic deduction.

Originally Posted by Agan

The wolves don't know who will be their fellows, but surely they don't want to lose any of them (in the trials or later).

Very true, but that is also for specials and ordinaries as well. Obviously the wolves, no matter how large a number there is of them in this game, they need as many as possible to make any great effect. So, whatever anyone throws out they can decide to go with or against. Examples of this are especially arguements about playing style. Diversions like that, when they're dragged on and on, are wonderful for a wolf.

I guess the same can be said about specials, except maybe the need for preserving themselves is an even dire effort. This is because, unlike the wolves, the specials are in different groups with different roles, etc. Whether they are counterproductive to each others' groups can be true, but specials even in larger amounts can be at a great disadventage by the way and number of votes in their direction.

Maybe even at a greater disadvantage is ordinaries, on certain trial days, and by who they vote for. If you're an ordinary, you necessarily don't wish to attract too much suspicious attention, and you definately don't want your vote to end up taking out another of your group or a special who can benefit you. So, in a way I can see why some players are especially cautious about their votes just yet, survival wise when you don't know the role of any other it makes sense.

Originally Posted by Agan

So if we force them to comment on others before they know their fellows, it'll be less likely that they can change their opinion about them later and get away with it.

Be careful about that, wolves really only want to appear as ordinaries at the most, and if they have a head on their shoulders they'll definately go with the most cavaliering and pious crowd, but try to make sure that their response is as unique as it is deemed 'appropriate' saying,
"Oh I agree, but have you looked at this? No?! Well, if it isn't too much to explain, you might kill me anyways, but here's my contribution to the cause..."

If you give them a 'hero', they'll write you a tragedy.

Now, any ordinary knowing their end coming might say the same thing, so that is why it is tricky. Of course though, we always need to remember people will randomly bring back their character's personality at times to keep things varied for the sake of writing.

I have to end my post at this, since I have some phone calls/RL things to finish up for now.

I have a stupid question first though, since I keep seeing people mention it on and off. I thought we were not supposed to know whom else we have a trial day with/tell others for very simple reasons? Sorry if this is stupid, but I just wished to ask since I haven't seen the discussion page today, just PM's I recieved.

~ Ka

[Roa_Aoife]

And Nogrod, if it's you, me, and Lommy, may heaven help us. But I don't think that's how it will be, if it's really one of each a Day.

[Thinlómien]

I'm somewhat concerned about how much I and Nogrod agree. Surely, the fact that he thinks like me might imply he is innocent, but he could be a sneaky wolf as well. I'll be paying extra attention to him.

++ROA

If there actually was a lynch, I wouldn't vote her, but now I can, for she actually seems (by a slight mariginal) the most suspicious.

Brinn, Menel and Zali still seem suspicious to me, mainly because of their wolvish approach to things, but I'd rather vote Roa, for in her case, at least, I know it's not the difference in the way of thinking that causes my suspicion.

I'm slightly suspicious of Legate as well, but I acknowledge that it's just a gut-feeling.

I think Agan raised a very good point on that people should comment the previous trial Days in their trial Day and I second her suggestion.

EDIT: xed with everybody after Greenie

[Volo]

Deadline

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

lynching people based on how vocal they are.. is a bit rubbish.

I do agree. But in a long run the silent people turn from assets to threats. That's the way it is.

Okay my vote then:

++ Legate

He's the only one I have something like a "case" on.

In an actual voting I might have voted differently though as I'd hate to lose a contributing player like he is just on these grounds. In a normal game I'd liked to see more of his posting to decide.

Others that look somewhat suspicious to me:
The Ka: Writing a lot to look committed but not saying anything (careful werewolf -tactics)
Zali: Yes, that's too defencive and roundabout to raise eyebrows
Roa: Too agreeable
Groin: Even if a newcomer his list of suspicions looks like he tried to build it up to look good as the general air seemed to be that we should say something about others.

An uneasy feeling I get from:
Naria & Kath: I always fear them and there's only one post from Naria to count...

Am totally baffled about:
Shasta, Sally & Gil-Galad: Are you playing guys?
The Might: I just don't get your reasoning...
Valier: Enigma, as always.
Menel: fifty-fifty

Innocentish:
Brinn: I disagree with her but she feels innocent
Rikae: Talks sense (even if I disagree with a few things) and feels right.
Agan: Talks sense
Lommy: Feels innocent

Sorry. Time's up...

EDIT: X'd with everyone... but it was still 8.00PM

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I think the DL so near, yup, even I am sort of in stress, even though I knew when it will come. Created almost as good pre-DL tension as a "real" DL would. Anyway, hope to see the most of you again after the trials... good luck and let's hope there will be just a few, or no wolves at all... it's all in everyone's individual hands more than it was ever else...

[Aganzir]

++ Azaelia

She and Brinn are my top suspects right now, but I don't have time to go properly through their posts again. Her reaction to my suspicion was exaggerated.

edit: xed with the deadline. And didn't have time to read the posts from the last about five minutes either.

[Volo]

The first day in imprisoment was queter than expected. Much to the joy of the Wolves. The most significant events of the day included a physics lection by Legate the Ranger lvl. 17 and Nogrod the Dwarf from Nogrod (who was the first to wake from the revelation made by Sauron) trying to create something as subtle as a productive discussion with a sledge-hammer. Only Nogrod seemed to learn from Legate’s lesson, and he himself couldn’t manage to convince everybody that voting is a good idea. This day was a victory of the pessimists.

In the evening three more ships arrived and three more great warriors found themselves trapped in the golden temple. A Little Green Man mastered his fear of the Sun and Moon and his toes turning red and joined the discussion. So did Rikae the lover of retired Wolf Macalaure, who was living his life quite happily at his own private castle somewhere hidden in the mountains (he was, quite obviously, no longer a threat). Isabellkya joined the discussion last of the three and managed to stay away from the chaos that was slowly building.

It might be said that the three newcomers took the places of Sally, Kath and Gil-Galad who didn’t bother to say a word during the whole day. One answer to this might be that they were too busy sharpening their weapons, just like Ugh-Friedrich the host who was preparing speeches, being a host and all.

As the Sun came down completely (and ironically Nogrod would have been dead if this were any other day but today and to think that voting was his idea more than anyone's...), doors were opened into inner chambers of the temple, of for each of the warriors. None had to be asked twice (or even once) if they wanted to sleep. Insomnia didn’t keep a single person awake that night. Not even the Wolves, who were still too unorganized to go killing anybody.

---------~~

Ugh-Friedrich entered the balcony and took out his notes. The crowd cheered wildly and it made Ugh-Friedrich ajust his earplugs before he started to speak. A microphone was brought up to him by a slave.

”Welcome to the greatest event that has ever taken place on Númenor (which I would like to thank sincerely for sponsoring all of this)! It is awesome to see so many of you here today. I hope you’re having fun!” He lifted his brows and paused for a mere second. *YES* ”Just as I thought!

”As most of you know by now, the competitions will last 15 battle-filled days. The first stage has seven days in it. Three gladiators will fight to one’s death. That means that seven will die. The next stage will also last seven days and seven more will die then. The last, and most interesting part will be the 15th day of the event when all the seven remaining warriors will be sent to battle at the same time. Only one will stand alive after that. And it will be the first Man-” *DWARF!* ”- or Dwarf-” *WOMAN* ”- yes, yes, or woman (although Man does include woman, you know…) to ever be blessed by immortality. For that is indeed the one and only prize here!” Pause. ”Immortality!” *loads of clapping and shouting*

”Today three mighty warriors will fight!” Pause. ”One shall die.” Pause. ”Two shall live.” Pause. ”Will it be that one of them will become immortal?” Pause. ”They risk their lives to-”
”Get on with it!” somebody shouted from the audince.
Ugh-Friedrich felt his knees tremble as he was distracted from his notes. ”Ummm….” He began. ”Oh yes: Legate of Amon Lanc! Meneltarmacil the Mooseslayer! Valier of 27 Mysteries!”

---------~~

Alive:
Brinniel
THE Ka
Shastanis Althereduin
satansaloser2005
Aganzir
McCaber
Nogrod
Legate of Amon Lanc
The Might
Thinlómien
Valier
Groin Redbeard
Meneltarmacil
Kath
Gil-Galad
Roa_Aoife
Naria
Azaelia of Willowbottom
Isabellkya
Rikae
A Little Green
Ugh-Friedrich (host)

---------~~

Day0.0 ended, Day0.1 began.

Legate, Menel and Valier may post and vote (for eachother). Others sit in silence.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Look ye, look ye, I haven't in fact done anything against the rules by posting after the DL, as I can actually post now! Yeah!

So Menel and Valier, huh? Good. Will read their posts right now before they show up. Ha-looo, anyone around here?

Legate of Amon Lanc threw his long Elven cloak over his shoulder. With canny eyes, he watched the two figures facing him. His right hand grasped the finely carved long bow, while his left hand reached for a single silver arrow in his quiver. "I could use Manyshot or Rapid Shot," he thought, "but it gives an attack penalty and moreover, one of them may be a good Gifted. One arrow would have to suffice."

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Legate looked at all the other warriors standing in a circle around the three today's fighters. He smiled and shook his head. "I can guess what you are thinking about," he thought. "I know it must be unusually funny to be here and look at us, at me - yes, I know you do - whilst knowing exactly the same thing awaits you, some sooner, some later. Yes, I know you'll try to learn. I have no doubts about it. But first..." he turned his head back to the Ranger in black and the Mooseman.

"A few question first, my opponents," Legate said, rising up his left arm. The silver arrowhead gleamed in the sun. "Before I choose at whom I aim my deadly shot - and I can assure you that if I hit a Werewolf, it will be a deadly shot, as these monsters are my favoured enemies since level 5, which makes it +4 on weapon damage rolls; and I know you basic sample werewolves have just about 2 HD - I would like to know why you did some things you did yesterday - oh, this looks like the longest day ever! So:

Meneltarmacil, your very first post, your post #19. Have you read the posts that were posted before or not, by the time you were writing it?

And Valier:

Originally Posted by Valier

The first day is for the most part pretty random, but think with the vote not really counting today, it gives the evil doers among us a way to minipulate us with their votes . Seeing as most things today can be argued later as being first day not knowinness.

Not sure if I got it right, but can you outline how you imagine a wolf could manipulate with his vote later? An example would be the best.

Please answer these questions to me. Also, you can ask me whatever you wish. The advantage of the three of us being here together makes it much more clear for orientation. When are you going to be around? I am going to be here still at least for quarter an hour now, maybe later, but then I will appear only in the morning, i.e. between 7 and 9 AM GMT.

"At least one good thing," Legate thought, "I had the luck to get two of the less vocal people, so I don't have to go through pages of records. Or is it luck? We'll see." He looked sideways at the audience and attempted to hide a grin. "I pity those of you who have people with thousands of words to analyse..." Then he realised that this includes even himself and started to laugh.

[Meneltarmacil]

Admittedly, I had only glanced over the posts before I started and still haven't fully read everything from the last "day."

A few things I did notice, though:
-Nogrod, strangely enough, seemed to want people to start putting pressure on others, voicing suspicions, etc.
-McCaber started acting unusually friendly toward me after I mentioned that a loud wolf was more dangerous than a quiet one, thanking me for allowing him to remain silent when he had nothing to say.

[Valier]

well hello you two...of all the two...one quiet, one loud.
This should be an interesting day. Ok so now down to it. which one of you is furry and which one isn't. That is the question.

Originally Posted by Legate

Not sure if I got it right, but can you outline how you imagine a wolf could manipulate with his vote later? An example would be the best.

hmmm let's see, I don't and didn't quite mean manipulate, though I used the word. I just mean that by having a vote on the first day, without it counting, could perhaps muddle people up in later days(as I know it would with me if others went by day 0.

Ok let me stop for a second and see if I can make this, make sense.... Ok let's say I was a wolf (which I'm not, seriously) Yesterday it would have been pretty easy to say whatever I wished, since no one was to be killed. and everything I said that may incriminate me that day later on, I could dismiss as a day that "didn't count" just as every other day one except the voting was not necessary.
Did that answer your question Legate? If not please do let me know.

Now as I was writing this I was thinking it kinda weird that I was just answered your question without hesitation, which is a bit out of character for me. But the thing is today is like our own little game of ww. Normally I would question you for questioning me and think you suspicious, but today what else is there? I was thinking along the same lines as you Legate as to how to approach this day, and I thought why not be specific and ask questions.
So this being a wholly different day, and us being the first to try our hand at it your question does not surprise me. This makes me for the moment leaning towards you as being innocent or Gifted (I'm not telling) because you had the same reaction and thoughts as I do. but that could in itself be a furry plot.

Now this bring us to Menel...Oh Menel, I always suspect you and at the same time don't because well you are so dang quiet. When you do post, sorry to say they always seem...no offense weird. I know you can be an effective wolf, because of your elusiveness and your long ww history. But a lot of the time I suspected you, I was wrong. I hope to hear a fair amount from you today, please do contribute so we can get a grasp on each other.

I will be around for the majority of the day. I don't work tomorrow, so let us set the standard for the days to come.

[Valier]

I cross-posted with Menel just now


HUH???? Why are you concern now what McCaber and Nogrod had to say? It is just us three in this battle.

[Meneltarmacil]

Oh, sorry. I guess we can only choose between the three of us, then? Well, in that case I'll go back and read what you've both had to say thus far, not that I think it likely that the early game chat will reveal much.

[Valier]

Hellllooooo(echoes) sure is quiet with three people. Guess I got to make up the talking for us, for now. It seems as well that Legate you are asleep for most of the time that I am on, and Menel I'm not sure of his schedule.

I've read through the posts from yesterday, and frankly there isn't much to go on. Menel mostly said how useless yesterday was and not much else. Legate had his hand in everything having posted a large amount of times. Quite helpful. Menel not so much so..

This is hard to make a decision with nothing to go on.
Menel do you have anything to say or add to the mix? You need to prove us with something about what you are thinking.

I'm going to see if there are some things I can ask you guys that may help me choose. Back to reading. If I don't get back on tonight I will for sure be on tomorrow for hours before deadline.

[Valier]

Just reading through before bed and this caught my eye.

Originally Posted by Menel

Between the two of them, however, I'd say a loud wolf is more dangerous than a quiet wolf due to its ability to affect votes, unless it's an inept loud wolf, in which case it ends up as a Fenris.

Makes me think he is saying" Don't look at the quiet ones as wolves look to the loud ones." which is perfect if he in fact is a quiet wolf, hoping to slip through.

*Taps foot*

having a conversation with myself is a little strange....hope to have something to read when I get up.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well yes, I think these Days will be somewhat monologic at certain times... anyway, from now on, I will be mostly around till DL, so no worry.

What to think now? Thank you both for answering my questions, anyway. What I collected is that Menel obviously did not read what was posted before, which only makes sense. I was referring to the fact that in your first post, you said:

Originally Posted by Meneltarmacil

To be honest, I don't know that there's anything we can really do toDay that would really matter. There aren't going to be votes, so there won't be anybody trying to persuade villagers to vote for others. (...) If there's anything that could make a good talking point, I'm all ears, though.

While Nogrod before (and me as well, and others) discussed, and indeed, even "pushed" already the idea of people voting.

That of course does not move us anywhere, as this makes perfect sense and in Menel's case, basing suspicions on the fact that he does not read what others said won't be adequate. One could maybe think a Wolf Menel will be more careful and read the thread first. But if he were a Wolf and actually believed in what he said yesterDay (which I don't have problem with believing he does), he as well may not have read the thread carefully. Hm.

Now Valier, yes, what you said also answers my question. Valier... however good overall her posts may seem to me, there are a few things that make me wary.

Originally Posted by Valier

Now as I was writing this I was thinking it kinda weird that I was just answered your question without hesitation, which is a bit out of character for me. But the thing is today is like our own little game of ww. Normally I would question you for questioning me and think you suspicious, but today what else is there?

For example, why to say this? One idea I got was that it could say "Menel, look, Legate is doing a suspicious thing. - But Legate, of course, noo, I am not suspecting you." Actually, on more points Valier is flip-floppy in the way of "come-bite-back away". Hm.

So, I am leaving now (again) for a shorter time, I'll be back in about four hours, and then I'll be around for the rest of the Day to immediately react to both of you if you appear. Later...

[Meneltarmacil]

A few thoughts for the Day:

-Valier hasn't posted enough for me to really get a handle on what she thinks.

-Legate was behaving rather strangely earlier. He throws his support behind Nogrod's voting idea, with good arguments to match... and then attacks Nogrod for trying to be too helpful, without posting a lot of reasoning for his choice beyond that. This doesn't look good.

Of the two, I'd be more inclined to suspect Legate, but I'd rather hear more from Valier first.

[Valier]

Originally Posted by Legate

For example, why to say this? One idea I got was that it could say "Menel, look, Legate is doing a suspicious thing. - But Legate, of course, noo, I am not suspecting you." Actually, on more points Valier is flip-floppy in the way of "come-bite-back away". Hm.

Not quite sure what your getting at...My reason for that comment is simple. I am normally not so talkative and would question someone who questions me. But today is different, I must talk. There is no one else that I can sit back read and analyze like I normally do. I always have a difficult time expressing what I think and feel, so this time I was writing what I was thinking at the time, hoping this would give more insight as to how I think and feel. This could be seen as flip-floppy, but there is always a way to see the good points and bad points of a person. My mind at the moment IS a little flip-floppy.

Menel, what else do you want of me? I think I have posted at least a wee bit, giving something to think about. Your posts are not helping. Why do you think Legate is more suspicious? Legate where do you stand?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Right now, if you want me to be honest, I am worried. As probably all of us are, but one for a different reason than the remaining two. I must confess that I hoped to provoke some reaction from you, Valier, where you would slip, in case you are a Wolf. Nothing like that occured. I was inclined to trust you more than Menel, but the problem with him is that he is always silent as grave and does not even realise that he is, so one cannot get too clear view of him.

Menel, one question.

Originally Posted by Menel

and then attacks Nogrod for trying to be too helpful, without posting a lot of reasoning for his choice beyond that. This doesn't look good.

Do you realise that attacking Nogrod yesterDay has only very little in-game value? I mean, as a wolf, I would not achieve anything by accusing him, first, there was no lynch yesterDay, so my suspicion could have at maximum brought him under spotlight when the remaining two are dueling him, but second, I could not even have known if he is not a fellow wolf, in which way I would be ruining the victory for myself.

I am around now, so hoping to see Menel post as well, and then we'll see...

[Valier]

Your comment Legate above is what I was talking about about using yesterday as a way to "manipulate" the later voting. The coin always has two sides. One you can say you would never do something because it would not benefit you as a wolf, and on the other side as a wolf you could say you would never do it, then do it, just to confuse others. Does this make sense?

Now the question is do I vote for the more "easier" candidate Menel, as there is not much to go on and he offers no good suspicions or discussions. Or do I go with the more innocent looking Legate, who seems to offer good discussions and has fair reasoning behind his suspicions. But sometimes what seems good and true on the surface, can indeed be furry beneath.

Still hoping to hear more from both of you....

[Meneltarmacil]

OK, basically, Legate, the reason your suspicion of Nogrod doesn't seem to make sense is that you seemed to agree with a lot of Nogrod's ideas, yet constantly felt you had to mention that he was suspicious. I couldn't find an explanation of why he was suspicious in your posts, except for a mention of him trying to hide behind a helpful idea.

What, specifically, did Nogrod do to make you suspect him?

Alas, my hunting skills are unlikely to help a lot here, given that my favored enemy is moose.

[Gil-Galad]

i am totally confused in this game right now... it is going to take me awhile to get my bearing so i will not be voting today...

(i got to re-read the rules because like i said, i am totally confused... great way to start a game...)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Valier

Your comment Legate above is what I was talking about about using yesterday as a way to "manipulate" the later voting. The coin always has two sides. One you can say you would never do something because it would not benefit you as a wolf, and on the other side as a wolf you could say you would never do it, then do it, just to confuse others. Does this make sense?

Oh yes, I understand.

What I was saying concerning the suspicions created yesterDay is that they won't come into effect until Day 1 when all the folks are together again. And that's a long time. For innocent people, yesterDay was the moment when they could post their honest suspicions, without the fear that if they take a bad step, they immediately seal the person's fate. For a Wolf, intentionally constructing suspicion against someone did not bring immediate results and it would only make people focus on him for fabricating a case. And what worse, he could have fabricated a case against a fellow wolf. Yes, everything is possible, but it would take a very bold wolf to risk that much.

Menel, good to see you here. Well, I said it at the beginning - I just had the feeling that there is something bad about Nogrod. I could have picked a person I think suspicious the most, and I chose Nogrod, because he was posting a lot with slightly over-cheerful tone at times (I believe I mentioned this aspect in some post of mine), and while I agreed with his idea of making people vote, he had this stance even before the game started (so he could not have changed his opinion even if he wanted to), and so he could have turned it to his advantage as a wolf. The overall behavior of his, just the way he behaved, made me think that he may rather be pretending to be helpful than really trying to be helpful. So that was the basis of my suspicion against him.

[Valier]

I see what you are saying Legate. That makes sense.

Gil-Galad, reread the rules. there is only 3 warriors who post today.

[Valier]

Originally Posted by Menel

Alas, my hunting skills are unlikely to help a lot here, given that my favored enemy is moose.

I am but a Ranger. But I'm afraid Moose hunter no matter what your wordly powers, you must find another way to help out in this battle.

[Valier]

Menel you are awfully quiet...even more than usual? Your last post to me sounds a bit like you've given up already.

[Valier]

hour and a bit left..... are you both going to leave it till the last?

I'm still thinking this through myself. but in the end, I'm afraid my gut may have to do the job for me if I don't hear more.

[Meneltarmacil]

I'm still here; that last comment was just an in-character thing.

Anyhow, I suppose it's possible that Legate was legitimately suspicious of Nogrod, given that Nogrod would have had to set his idea in motion regardless of what he was.

As for what I might want from you, Valier, I couldn't find much in your posts that would shed any light on what your role might be, just mild suspicions here and there without much else. You could either be a villager in the dark about things, or a wolf pretending to be a villager, but there's nothing to suggest either one. The playing style here prevents the usual bandwagoning, vote-influencing, and such, and so I don't have any patterns from you to analyze yet. In short, I'm not sure there's much I can do.

So do we have a loud, confusing, influential wolf trying to stay close to Nogrod's ideas while keeping a discrete distance from the man himself, or is the wolf just trying to pass itself off as an in-the-dark villager and hope nobody notices? I'll review the posts some more and get back to you on that.