*TTT - Osgiliath*

[Estelyn Telcontar]

What did you think of the scenes at Osgiliath in the movie?

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

Though none of this was in the book (the setting, no necessarliy some of the dialogue) I liked what happened there. The way they showed the ring's possession growing on Frodo and his response to the Witch King. The moments when he held Sting at Sam's throat is a great moment for both actor's.<BR>Thumbs up!

[Sharkû]

"Mr. Frodo, by all rights we shouldn't even be here." <P>Well put.<BR>The Osgiliath scene was flawed in terms of drama and effect alike. Frodo's "seduction" could have been conveyed far better and more credible (if you will) with the scene described in the book; the passing of the black army out of Minas Morgul. Frodo fondling with the Ring and facing the Witch-King on his winged steed is over-dramatic and does not fit the flow of the story. If any story-consistent logic were to be applied, Frodo would not be able to make it one mile further once discovered.<BR>His harshness towards Sam was an anticipation of things we would not see until the very slopes of Mount Doom. It is up to the authors how to top that; I daresay it was not necessary to go that far so soon. <BR>Faramir is an entirely different story again, see there.<p>[ December 19, 2002: Message edited by: Sharkû ]

[TolkienGurl]

The scenery was great, but the characters were not. <P>The Frodo/Sam confrontation: right feeling, wrong time.<P>The desparation of Frodo would have been better suited for RotK. How is he supposed to be even <I>more</I> depressed in Mordor?<P>"The Indecisive Ringwraith" (see Birdie's thread) really was illogical as Sharku said, and I stated in the before mentioned thread. <P>And poor Faramir. They completely butchered his role. <p>[ December 18, 2002: Message edited by: TolkienGurl ]

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

It was quite good. It was only there to show the threat to Gondor, which becomes of central significance in the next film.<P>Those Wraiths on wings are terrifying.

[The Silver-shod Muse]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> "Mr. Frodo, by all rights we shouldn't even be here." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My sentiments exactly. I can't believe that line's even in there. Was PJ trying to justify his mistake? It didn't work. Despite Sam's touching speechifying, the entire scene was sickeningly false.

[Sapphire_Flame]

You people have no sense. (Except Tigerlily Gamgee ) I thought the scene was very well done, in spite of the fact that it wasn't even in the book. I think PJ put it in just to show what Gondor was up against on its eastern border. I mean, Osgiliath is mentioned constantly in TT and RotK (the books) but we are never actually taken there. This shows the struggle over this stratigic spot, and (in my opinion) it gives Faramir a chance to redeem himself of his earlier actions. <P>As for the Nazgul/Frodo encounter, I think that was a bit much, but very suspenseful. And when Frodo has Sting up against Sam's throat...Sad! I think the whole thing was very well done.

[Maeglin]

Why did it look like stalingrad? Did they ruin all the buildings with arrows? Sure they had some sort of catapult but it only hit the water all the time and it couldn't possibly have mad all those holes in the wall.<P>???

[Túroch]

Alright i'm not the most reliable source of Tolkien info but, wasn't Osgiliath already a ruin by then? It had been taken by orcs several years ago.

[Maeglin]

Oh yes, that might be so. Sorry.<BR>BUT! Why and how did they do to ruin it like that anyway? Speaking in the name of logic. Threw orcexplosives from dragons?

[TolkienGurl]

Did any of you see the enemy the men in Osgiliath were shooting at? Orcs? Easterlings? The Gondorians were shooting arrows across a large expanse of water, but <I>at what</I>? If the attack was so important and serious, why weren't the bad guys anywhere to be seen? And why did the catapault have such bad aim?<P>I really think it was a mistake to put this in the movie. Both Faramir and Boromir were supposed to be there, defending the bridge against the army and the Nazgûl. Osgiliath was attacked on June 20, 3018 (when the Nine set out from Mordor) and I'm pretty sure Frodo and Sam did not encounter Faramir until quite early the next year! So, yes, Osgiliath was already in ruins by then.<P>For me, the Osgiliath setting did nothing to enhance the overall effect of the movie (except to confuse me). I understand it was used to portray the evilness of Mordor, and the danger of Gondor's position, but I'm sure they could have used a different, more accurate way than that! Maybe they could have shown a meeting of the captains of Gondor, or something. <P>The "Mexican Standoff" was unnecessary, and he rest of the Faramir/Frodo/Sam encounter could have easily been done at Henneth Annun. And Sam's little speech, though sweet, could have been saved for a time in Mordor when things were more desperate, like at Mt. Doom, on its slopes or something. <P>I also likes the Frodo/Sam/Sting part, but that could have been done in the Tower of Cirith Ungol after Sam finds Frodo, and Frodo realizes that Sam has the Ring. He certainly freaks out at that part in the book!<P>Alright, enough of my ranting. <p>[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: TolkienGurl ]

[Diamond18]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I also likes the Frodo/Sam/Sting part, but that could have been done in the Tower of Cirith Ungol after Sam finds Frodo, and Frodo realizes that Sam has the Ring. He certainly freaks out at that part in the book! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm really curious as to how that Tower of Cirith Ungol scene will go in RotK. I'm looking forward to it, too...I mean, you know what a sucker I am for movie-Frodo and his weakness/psychosis. I'm guessing that unless for some strange reason Sam doesn't bear the Ring at all ( ) that scene will be quite tense. I'm pretty sure I'll like it, since I liked that one part about Osgiliath in the movie.

[Cherie Centaur]

TolkienGurl, you took the words right out of my mouth. I'm speechless.

[doug*platypus]

Sharku has ably summed up the scene, at from my point of view at least. It's nice to see that not everyone hated it completely, though, otherwise the thread would just be a b*tch session (not butch, or batch).<P>I'd like to add that even though the visuals of the Nazgul/Frodo scene were amazing and terrifying, the Nazgul don't really do much, do they? Why is the movie making them even less powerful than in the books? True, their main weapon is fear, but when you have one <I>that</I> close to the Ringbearer, surely he should be able to come up with something else? Why didn't his Fell Beast just pick Frodo up and carry him off?<P>Also, it seems that Faramir is not the master strategist we thought he was. Instead of falling on the enemy from the rear (east), he somehow finds boats somewhere, crosses over the Anduin, and joins his mates on the other side. Of course, the Extended DVD might try and come up with an explanation for that one.

[Liriodendron]

The winged nazgul were not scary at all!(to me) I was disappointed with their steeds. They looked like they flew off the doorway decorations of some old stone building. They were too small, neck too curved, I dunno, they totally missed the mark. They needed some fear build up of some sort. I think it might have been scarier to have not shown them at all, just dark shadows and foul winds, screeches, and people and animals falling prostrate with fear. I think the nazgul's horses were good, they should have just given them wings. I do not remember the description for these creatures in the book.

[the real findorfin]

Shouldn't the Nazgul (is their a singular version of the word) inspire a bit more fear in the Gondorians??

[TolkienGurl]

No! Not winged black horses! Please! <P>*cowers in the corner as she remembers watching the animated <I>Return of the King</I>* Now <I>that</I> was a horrible movie!

[Pookabunny]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>For me, the Osgiliath setting did nothing to enhance the overall effect of the movie (except to confuse me). I understand it was used to portray the evilness of Mordor, and the danger of Gondor's position, but I'm sure they could have used a different, more accurate way than that! Maybe they could have shown a meeting of the captains of Gondor, or something. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>A-FRICKIN-MEN!<P>Tolkiengurl, that was right on! Thanks for expressing what linguistically I'm inept for, and motivationally too lazy to type <P>Okay the scenes with Faramir were hard enough to watch, but this one was downright having me say "Ninja whua?!?!?" I just didn't get it. I did like how they had Faramir redeem himself at the end of that scene. I'm dyslexic and I'll pretend that I have ADD, and pretend that scene wasn't preceeded by anything other than that part when Sam said "PO-TA-TOES!"<P>HAHA the funniest part in Fellowship was when Merry said "Sausage, tomatoes and nice crispy bacon" (ok the chronology may be a bit off), and the funniest part in this one was the Potatoes deal. Leave it to me to relate my favorite LOTR experiences to food.

[Nurumaiel]

Though Faramir bringing Frodo and Sam to Osgiliath was not in the books, I thought it was pretty cool.<P>As for the Nazgul vs. Frodo talk... When I went to the movie I was watching that part with great alertness, and it seemed -to me at least- that the Nazgul never got a chance to take the Ring from Frodo, or take Frodo, for that matter. Frodo goes up and holds up the Ring, the Nazgul seems like he's trying to get his steed to land on that pretty narrow spot for a creature of that size, Sam comes running up and knocks Frodo down, Faramir shoots the Nazgul's steed, it goes crazy, making it nearly impossible for the Nazgul to do anything. And trust me, I know. I've been on some horses that have gone crazy. When did the Nazgul get his chance?<P>I was very moved by the Frodo/Sam talk (though Sam seemed to do most of the talking), but about halfway through his speech I was wondering if Osgiliath was the right place to put this talk. All the same...<P>~Nurumaiel

[Lily Bracegirdle]

I agree with Sharku and TolkienGurl. Even though certain parts of the scene were well done (especially the interactions between Frodo and Sam), the whole thing was a giant HUH?! as far as I was concerned.<P>1) It seemed silly for Faramir to take the Ring to a place that was (for all he knew) about to be overrun by the Enemy.<P>2) The Ringwraith gave up too easily. If I were a Nazgul, and I saw the Ring of Power, I wouldn't leave until I had it IN MY HAND. I wouldn't care how many arrows people shot at me. At the very least, I'd have all of my forces charge the Ring's position. [Edit, 1/26/03: Now that I've seen the movie again, I'm convinced the Nazgul didn't actually notice the Ring, silly as that sounds. See The Indecisive Nazgul thread.]<P>3) Frodo was too far under the sway of the Ring. If he's already trying to kill Sam before they enter Mordor, he's going to be a gibbering pre-wraith for most of the next movie. (Not that that scene wasn't effective, mind you. I was holding my breath the whole time! I just agree with the others that it's too soon.)<P>4) Faramir's "I think we finally understand each other" line made no sense. He had just seen Frodo just about HAND the Ring over to the Nazgul. At that point it would have made more sense for him to say: "You are a menace and can't be trusted with that thing! Give it to me! Right now!" Instead, he turned Frodo loose in the middle of the battle. WHY? The sudden change of heart didn't seem believable.<P>5) Faramir's men also know that Frodo has the Ring, yet none of THEM tried to take it when Faramir decided to let Frodo go. If the Ring is so powerful that it (even temporarily) corrupted Faramir, do you think his men would just say: "Okay, Boss, we'll let the thing go to Mordor. We're just sorry that you're going to die for it"?<P>6) After being so pale and despondent in Osgiliath, Frodo looks remarkably healthy and cheerful in the next scene. (The Osgiliath scenes were done in pick-ups, so I guess the "Samwise the Brave" scene was one that had been shot earlier when Faramir was still going to be a good guy.)<P>In short, I think the Osgiliath scenes were pretty to look at, but didn't really add anything significant to the plot, nor did they do much for the characterizations. Their internal logic also seemed questionable. <P>If PJ needed to show the ring to the Nazgul to give Sauron a reason to attack Gondor, I wonder if that means Aragorn won't be showing himself in the Isengard palantir.<P>PJ could have just as easily shown what Gondor was up against by having Faramir fighting at Osgiliath (or Cair Andros) after the hobbits leave.<P>I would have prefered it if we had just cut from the "A chance for Faramir...to show his quality" scene to Frodo and Sam back on the road talking about stories. Barring that, it would have been nice if Faramir had given them food and advice as he did in the book. (Something for me to look forward to on the extended version DVD.)<P>It's unfortunate that Faramir actually saw the Ring in the movie. I think the reason he was able to withstand its power so easily in the book is that he didn't actually see it (nor did he want to). It just didn't have as much opportunity to work on him the way it did Boromir and Aragorn (who travelled for months with it). That doesn't necessarily make Book-Faramir better than Aragorn, so I think the whole PJ fix of Faramir's character (and thus the Osgiliath scene) was unnecessary.<P>What do you think?<P>-Lily<p>[ January 26, 2003: Message edited by: Lily Bracegirdle ]

[LePetitChoux]

Did you notic how Sam's speech was heard by all the right people? <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Frodo, who then decided that he could do it after all<BR><LI>Gollum, whose "to kill or not to kill-that is the question" dilemma was increased about tenfold<BR><LI>Faramir, who decided to let them go from a place they shouldn't even be at.</UL><P>The Osgiliath scene - muchos rubbishos, sehr schlecht, très mal, ochen' ploho, valde malus. In a sense, very bad.<P><I>They were on the wrong side of the river, for Pete's sake</I>! When somebody said "The orcs have taken the eastern shore" it implies that they were on the western shore. PJ = bad geographer! Mt. Doom, the Dead Marshes and Ithilien = EAST side of Anduin.

[ElentariGreenleaf]

I like the bit with the Ring Wraith and the bit with Frodo attacking Sam!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"It's me Mister Frodo. Don't you recognise me?"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Or something like that!!

[Kalimac]

Lily, welcome! I'm really impressed by your post. The only point I wanted to comment on was #4, where Faramir says "I think at last we understand each other..."<P>That was definitely a sideswipe, in the sense that I was thinking "Huh? HOW did this persuade him exactly?" The only two explanations I can think of are these.<P>1) The scene really got sliced, a la Lothlorien in the original release vs the extended edition. (Celeborn: "Wait, WHERE did my lines go??"). Faramir's line is, after all, part of one of the final speeches he makes to Frodo in the book, where he explains that he understands the innate evil of the Ring.<P>2) What Faramir means is "If bearing the Ring has shattered and corrupted you to the point where you're willing to hand it over and become the willing slave of the forces of darkness, maybe taking and using it wouldn't bring about such great results." This is kind of a leap, though it would be perfectly reasonable if Faramir had a few more short speeches interpolated where he EXPLAINS this thought process.<P>Just hoping the extended TTT does it a little more believably. And for heaven's sake, Faramir, give them some food this time around. Dragging them a week's march out of the way and then just booting them out without any supplies are not the actions of a guy who really understands what he's dealing with.

[The Saucepan Man]

The "wrong side of the river" thing is a problem, isn't it? It didn't occur to me when I was watching the film.<P>I have read that the extended version of TTT will explain this by having Faramir take Frodo and Sam through Osgiliath's sewer system so as to enable them to carry on their journey east. Which begs the question: Why not take his entire army through the sewer system and attack the orcs from the rear?

[HCIsland]

I may have my facts wrong, but doesn't Gondor control the crossing at Cair Andros, forty miles or so north of Osgoliath? Isn't this how Faramir gets across the Anduin to get to Minas Tirith in RoTK?<P>H.C.

[doug*platypus]

Good point, Spaceman Spiff, I never thought about how Faramir gets across in the book before. I seem to recall him mentioning watchers near the river with boats. Surely a march north to Cair Andros would have wasted too much of his precious time? Of course, I don't know exactly where Henneth Annûn was in Ithilien.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> You are a menace and can't be trusted with that thing! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Oh, man, great post Lily! I look forward to plenty more like it.<P>As for the Sam Speech... what ever happened to subtlety?!?! Tolkien manages to get across all these and many more messages without resorting to that favourite Hollywood gimmick, the "cheesy speech". I don't think the scriptwriters give their audience enough credit, here and basically all over the films.

[Lily Bracegirdle]

Thanks for the warm welcome, Kalimac and doug*platypus! <P>Kalimac, I hope that your number 1 option (Faramir's dialog got hacked) turns out to be the case, because that leaves the door open for it to be restored in the extended DVD version. *hopeful look* I'm just sorry that even with restored dialog, there's no way Sam can say to Faramir "(You) showed your quality: the very highest." ;_;<P>I agree with you about the food! Just because Faramir is tough on the hobbits at first doesn't preclude him from being helpful to them later. Plus, if Faramir plays nice after he decides to let the hobits go that would go a long way toward explaining Frodo's cheery demeanor in the next scene.<P>Now that I think about it, the other thing that confused me about the "understanding each other" line is that I don't think Frodo understands anything about Faramir at all --except that he's a big meanie. I hope the audience gets the chance to understand him better in RotK.<P>doug*platypus, I agree the Sam speech was a little heavy-handed, but I still found it moving despite myself. I have to give credit to Sean Astin for making emotional gold out of what could otherwise have been pure cheese whiz.<P>I don't have a good explanation for how they got into (or out of) Osgiliath either. If the orcs had taken the Eastern shore, does that mean the Men held neither? e.g., "They've taken the eastern shore (in addition to the western shore that they already control)"?<P>-Lily

[Deiagorn]

hated it...ggggrrrrr

[Lalaith]

It was, I think, *meant* to be suspenseful. First we have Galadriel's portentous voiceover, "all that is needed is for the young captain of Gondor...for all to be lost" and then we have a shot of Faramir looking like Robin Hood's nasty cousin. Oh, No! thinks Mr Average MovieGoer. The Quest is Going to Fail!<BR>Ok, not all the audience has read the books. But *everyone* knows that there is going to be a third film. So is it really likely that "all will be lost" now, at the end of the second film? <BR> What was especially annoying about the Osgiliath scene is that it cut into a really fantastic scene from the cleansing of Isengard which I was enjoying enormously.<p>[ January 23, 2003: Message edited by: Lalaith ]

[The Saucepan Man]

On another thread, the question was asked: What is Denethor doing in Osgiliath. <P>Now, I know he wasn't there and Faramir and co were just passing through in their way to Minas Tirith. But, when you think about it, it's a perfectly reasonable question. Why go to Osgiliath if Denethor wasn't there? It wasn't on a direct route from Henneth Anun to Minas Tirith, and neither was it exactly the safest place to escort the Ringbearer through. Is this another one of those re-writes that doesn't hold up under scrutiny, or is there a perfectly logical explanation?

[Thulorongil]

Evil-PJ-Movie-Faramir must've just thought that the little city that his evil-PJ-movie-mind told him that they still controlled (on the wrong side of the river) was more important than his evil-PJ-movie-plan to bring the ring to his daddy.<P>Evil-PJ-movie grr....<P>-----------------------------------------<P>ok, so it was ok......... but there were A LOT of NOT OK things about it. <P>-why would Sauron go on to attack Minas Tirith if he knew that the Ring was with a halfling in Osgiliath?<P>-why wasn't Sting glowing if there were orcs attacking right on the other (wrong) side of the river???<P>-why is awesome-JRRT-book-Faramir suddenly transformed into evil-PJ-movie-Faramir???<P>-how are Frodo & Sam going to make it to Shelob's lair in the same time frame as they did in the books if now they are some many miles off course? <BR> Because if they get there late, the Shagrat & Gorbag won't be there, and they will be late at getting to the crossroads where they meet more orcs, and they will be late at getting to Mt. Doom so all the people who marched to the Black Gate will have to be holding out against the evil armies for longer, so Aragorn will be late for his coronation.......................<BR>Or maybe PJ will just push March 27 back a week....<P>hmm

[HCIsland]

This didn't occur to me until this morning, but I think I know another main reason why Osgiliath was in TTT.<P>In the book RoTK, Faramir goes to Minas Tirith a few days after Pippin and Gandalf arrive. He reports to Denethor about the Halflings he encountered and Denethor surmises that he let the Ring slip through his fingers and is none too pleased. He bemoans that he should have sent Faramir to Rivendell instead of Boromir as Boromir would have brought him the Ring. Denethor then sends Faramir to Osgiliath to fortify the crossing and Faramir returns a few days later, poisoned and dying setting up the whole funeral pyre scene.<P>Putting Faramir in Osgiliath at the end of TTT really helps set this up. We'll get to see the host of Mordor overrun the crossing instead of just hearing about it and Faramir will arrive at Minas Tirith already wounded. One of his men (likely Parn) will see Pippin and tell about Sam, Frodo and Gollum. He will also relay the information that Faramir was going to send a "mighty gift" (a line that is well hated around here, but may have it's purpose) but he let the Halflings go. Denethor will again glean what this "mighty gift" is. Likely he'll bemoan to Gandalf over Faramir's still body about how he should have sent Faramir instead of Boromir. Gandalf of course will argue (as he does in the book) but with his only son dieing and the Ring of Power out of his grasp, Denethor will sink into depression (yes, I know there are other reasons for his behaviour which will become apparent) setting up the funeral pyre scene.<P>This works extremely efficiently (note: I'm not saying better) and efficiency is necessary in order to get as much of this story on the screen as possible.<P>H.C.

[The Saucepan Man]

But that still doesn't explain why Faramir went to Osgiliath on his way back to Minas Tirith, when it was not the quickest route. As you say, in the book, he first returns to Minas Tirith (presumably <B>not</B> via Osgiliath) and then goes out to Osgiliath to command its defence.

[HCIsland]

The way I remember it (and I'm looking at a <A HREF="http://www.dreamwater.net/seatofkings/script_ttt.html" TARGET=_blank>transcript</A> of the movie to be sure) Faramir gets word that Osgiliath is under attack and asking for reinforcements. I assumed he went there for that reason. I'm not sure I see the problem. Maybe I need to read the previous posts more closely.<P>By the way, how do people see Faramir getting to the western bank. I heard mention of tunnels below the river. Is it a fact that there was shots concerning this? I'm no engineer but it seems strange to me to build sewers under a river. I would think the sewers would end at the river.<P>I always assumed he crossed at Cair Andros, north of Osgiliath as he describes in the book.<P>Edited to add: Okay, I see where you are coming from Saucepan Man. If he crossed at Cair Andros and took a straight line to Minas Tirith, he would come very close to Osgiliath. Perhaps he wanted to see the situation there and then assess what he would do. If he was going to Denethor, he would certaily want to report the conditions of this important crossing. He likely felt, with the Orcs on the opposite bank, that it was safe enough to bring the Ring in. It seems unlikely he would have anticipated a Nazgul showing up and Frodo's reaction to it, which was the only thing that put the Ring in danger of being lost.<P>H.C.<p>[ January 28, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]

[The Saucepan Man]

Hmmmm, I suppose it's a feasible explanation. <P>As for the Osgiliath sewer system, see my earlier post on this thread. I saw a reference to this (with shots) in a picture book that I was reading in the local supermarket.