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Old 07-11-2002, 01:03 PM   #1
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White-Hand a barrow wight

I was reading 'Fog on the Barrow-Downs' again last night. The part about the wight really confusses me! What are they? What do they do? It all happened so quickly, and why was Frodo they only one to wake up? Then when Tom Bombadil came, did he like bannish the wight from it's grave? [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]
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Old 07-11-2002, 01:12 PM   #2
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Silmaril

Good question!! The barrow-wights in some sense, are like the Ringwraiths, except without rings of course [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] But the Barrow Downs were like a grave site, sorta...I guess, am I wrong? And I think they were under the rule of the With King. And they were kings of old, but they were bad. And they haunted the Barrow Downs. I hope I helped, but I don't think I did! Sorry!
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Old 07-11-2002, 01:17 PM   #3
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Our Barrow-Downs Theme is the place to start for an answer to some of these questions.
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Old 07-11-2002, 01:24 PM   #4
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Here is a link which might help also:

BARROW WIGHTS
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Old 07-11-2002, 01:39 PM   #5
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I would always point to our own encyclopedia first: Barrow-Wights
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Old 07-11-2002, 02:33 PM   #6
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Of course, dear Barrow Wight! I meant only for Anorien to use my link AFTER she had exhausted the resources of this site!
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Old 07-13-2002, 05:07 PM   #7
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I posted this reply elsewhere, but it should suffice for this query also [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

quote:
Some say that the houselsess desire bodies, though they are not willing to seek them lawfully by submission to the judgement of Mandos. The wicked among them will take bodies, if they can, unlawfully. The peril of communing with them is, therefore, not only the peril of being deluded by fantasies or lies: there is peril also of destruction. For one of the hungry Houseless, if it is admitted to the friendship of the Living, may seek to eject the fëa from its body; and in the contest for mastery the body may be gravely injured, even if it be not wrested from its rightful habitant. Or the Houseless may plead for shelter, and if it is admitted, then it will seek to enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes. It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them.


This is an excellent quote, though the quote tends to relate more directly to the inhabiting of a 'living soul' by a wandering or evil spirit? This is more akin to possession, whereby the barrow-wights re-animated the bones of the dead. Whereas they could certainly have been the remnants of Avari or Silvan Elves, I find it less likely. Yet, the fact remains that either way, these spirits were able to manipulate the bones of the dead, for whatever reason.

quote:
1.) Who were the Wights? We know they were sent by Angmar, but what were their origins before they passed into the shadow world? Could they have possibly been the men of Carn Dum, who were killed in the siege of Cardolan. Could Angmar have used these evil spirits to haunt the Barrows in order to keep anyone from ever settling in that region again?


This is my personal opinion, based on one quote only. They are certainly the tortured souls and spirits emanated from Angband, though they are neither Elvish, nor or they corrupted Maiar spirits.
For they revealed themselves to Merry in their true form;

quote:
'The Men of Carn Dum came on us at night, and we were worsted. Ah! the spear in my heart!' He clutched at his breast. No! No! he said, opening his eyes. What am I saying, I have been dreaming


I beleive this quote in itself signifies the origin of these spirits as Men, captured, tortured and corrupted by Melkor/Sauron, died in captivity, spirits then subject to Sauron, master of phantoms that he was, and the irony being that they were sent to inhabit the barrows of their own kind. A mockery in itself that they re-animated the bones of the Kings of old, haunting the places that were esteemed by the Numenoreans, who the Witch-king was charged with destroying. My thoughts and always up for debate.

quote:
2.) Bombadil told the hobbits to pass the barrows on the west (in the direction of the Lords of the West-Valar/Aman). When the hobbits reached the hill with the saucer shaped hollow on it's crown, they fell asleep on the east side (in the direction of the Lord of the East-Sauron/Mordor) of the standing stone. Is this, along with the Witch King's visit to the downs, what initiated their capture? Had they heeded Tom's advice and slept on the west side of the stone, would they have escaped the Downs unharmed? Was thier capture by Old Man Willow initiated by the Witch King's visit? Why wasn't Bombadil aware of the evil presence of Angmar, especially since his presence aroused that which was evil in The Old Forest? Bombadil apparently knew a bit about the people of Cardolan and about th Wights themselves. If this was the case, why would he be clueless about Angmar, the being that initiated the fall of Cardolan and the haunting of the Barrows?


No matter which side they slept on, they were destined to be captured. They had followed the path as best they could, the fact however remains that they dwelt too long in a place that was still under the spell of the Wights. They had become disorientated in the fog, which was deliberately set as a method of confusing them. The sleep, which might be explained by the journey, the food, the warmth, was still most likely an enchantment, for they had rested beside a stone, and this Tom had warned them about.

As far as Old Man Willow goes; he was black in his heart either way and had long been set in his ways, long before even the Witch-King had visited the region.

quote:
Tom says; 'The countless years had filled them with pride and rooted wisdom, and with malice. But none were more dangerous than the Great Willow; his heart was rotten, but his strength was green etc.

Trees were not subject to the evils of Melkor, Sauron or the Witch-King, their spite was nurtured and cultivated by very different reasons, mainly filled with a hatred of all things that go free on the earth, gnawing, biting, breaking, hacking, burning; destroyers and usurpers. This would ensure that trees, would be subject to no-one but themselves, disliking any who threatened them, and even for Old Willow-Man, those who didnt.

quote:
3.) What's the deal with the gold and jewels? It is more than likely that the Lords and Kings buried in Tyrn Gorthad were entombed with their possessions, but why, when Tom placed them on top of the barrow, was the spell of that barrow broken?


It is clear from the burial rituals of humankind (Germanic, Celtic, Norse and actually most civilisations in history) that people, especially warriors and Kings are prepared for their journey to the afterlife. On many occassions it has been found that these higher beings are buried with their families, dogs and even servants, who themselves may have been killed in order to accompany the warrior or King on their journey; which in itself is pretty crap for those who were related! Though this was a great honour?
As far as the Wights were concerned, their preparation of their sacrificial subjects depended heavily on the adornment of jewels, trinkets and circlets; this is possibly because the sacrifice itself was to Sauron, therefore they needed to be prepared in a way that would satisfy their master. One doesnt make an offering to their God without first ensuring it is of the highest quality, if it was unsuitable, would this not risk the wrath of their God? Opening the barrow to sunlight and scattering the possessions of the dead would render this useless to any spirit thereafter, for this tomb was already sullied and any sacred meaning it had was lost. Yet the very fact they sacrifice anyone is in mockery of Eru and a victory of of his opponents, I cannot relate it any other way than via a passage from the bible;

quote:
The LORD your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But when you have driven them out and settled in their land, and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, "How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same." You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods. See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it. Deuteronomy 12:29-32


quote:
4.) If the Wights were evil spirits, what was up with the long arm and the hand?? Could it be possible that the arm was the arm of the deceased occupant of the barrow?


Who knows the ways of these phantoms? If they can manipulate the bones of the dead, there is no reason why, in the dark, they can extend their evil arm beyond the comprehension of us mere mortals. Yet, we know they also had form outside the barrow, for Frodo noticed it just before his capture.
Originally, Barrow-Wights were similar to the Nazgul in Tolkiens mind, even related one could say. In 'The Return of the Shadow (HOME)', CRT noted some of Tolkiens scribblings whereby his intention was that the Nazgul were 'horsed' Barrow-Wights. Actually, that varied a number of times, for the Barrow-Wights who had attacked the group on the downs were horsed. It is intriguing to see the development of the story and the characters at the early stage. Though thankfully it did, for we may have had Bingo as Frodo and Trotter as Strider!!
However, as he progressed thru writing this chapter some significant changes were introduced that dispelled this idea. The problem is that there is no real reference to who they were in his earlier writings, nor does he elaborate on their demise which is what we really want.

Yet, the more I searched other references the more I began to understand that the truth is simple enough to find. This lies in Tom Bombadil's verse that he sings when he opens the roof of the Barrow;

quote:
Get out, you old Wight! Vanish in the sunlight!
Shrivel like the cold mist, like the winds go wailing

It is exactly this that destroys the Wight, possibly combined with the command of Tom's words, but most likely the power of the clear sunlight that fills the tomb, the Wight becomes as a mist and its screams fade into unmeasureable distance. Why use magic where none is indeed required, Tom knew the power of the sunlight and that in itself was the power he needed for this task.

Regarding Tom stamping on the 'spider-like hand'. There is no clear reference that he does this. Stamping and Thumping could simply describe Tom's 'bull in a china shop' approach to searching the tomb for treasure. Because Frodo thought he saw it, does not mean that Tom stampped upon it. However, if he did, it may be that this 'severed' hand remained in shadow, while the main part of the body was destroyed by the flow of sunlight. This strengthens my belief that it was the Sunlight that destroys the wight more than the verse, if the verse was so powerful, then surely all, even the hand would simply have disappeared.

quote:
5.) Tom said that only folks with hearts that never falter would be able to avoid the dreaded spell of the Barrow-wights. Obviously, Tom was one of these particular folk. Why was Frodo able to wake up while Sam, Merry, and Pippen were not? Was Frodo too strong hearted to fall under the spell? Did the Wight think that by sacrificing his friends, that Frodo would become so terrified that he would loose stregnth of heart and succumb to the spell?


I think it is more to do with the way they were caught by the Wights; From the account of Merry and the trailing scream cut short that Frodo heard, it seems they were attacked more vigourously than Frodo. Frodo was already feint and had fallen to the ground, then was gripped by an icy touch that froze his bones, he remembered no more. This suggests that Frodo did not need to be subdued in the same way the others were, Merry states that they were worsted, come upon with what seemed to him a spear in his heart. This attack, which one must imagine was how Pippin and Sam were also worsted, was more severe both mentally and physically than Frodo dropping to the ground, almost swooning before being gripped by the cold-ironlike hand.
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Old 07-13-2002, 11:28 PM   #8
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You know you spend too much time here when "Fog On The Barrowdowns" is obviously a reference to the site newsletter.
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Old 07-13-2002, 11:35 PM   #9
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holy-you wrote a lot! and it was very helpful! Thanks a bunch!
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Old 07-14-2002, 09:00 PM   #10
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Hey ~
Yeah wow that was very very long but very informative!!! Laters~!
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Old 07-15-2002, 03:08 PM   #11
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Thanks [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Sorry, I know it is a little long, but it was fully intended to cover as many of the bases as were asked in the original question; plus a few more to boot.
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Old 11-10-2008, 12:06 PM   #12
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Excellent post, Ancalagon's Fire. What I would like to know is: are the wights, like the old Police song sings, "spirits in the material world," meaning, how were they able to interact with the Hobbits in the physical world?

From what I can gather, Merry, Pippin and Sam were taken first by the wight(s). Frodo, after a long uphill slog, finds a wight/barrow and gets touched by the wight and remembers no more. So, first, how do the three hobbits get up into the barrow? How are their clothes removed? (and an aside, I believe that a wight exists next to my clothes dryer, as I cannot explain missing socks otherwise).

Seems like a big job for a crawling hand...

And after dragging the hobbits into the barrow, undressing them and adorning them with various bric-a-brac, the crawling arm makes to execute them, seemingly. Why couldn't the same mechanism that interacted with the Hobbits hold the sword that would have slain them?
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Old 11-11-2008, 06:02 AM   #13
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on the last point (why the hand was needed to do the actual slaying), I've laways thoght that the reason could be because this isn't simply a defensive killing, it is a ritual sacrafice. since it is it may be that the ritual calls for a specifically ordained "person" to be the one who actually strikes the blow, while the duty of adorning the sacrafices is the job of others.
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Old 11-14-2008, 01:01 PM   #14
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That would make some sense, except that some 'thing' had to transport the hobbits into the Barrow.

So are wights spirits in the material world? I guess so, as even the Nazgul can wear clothing. Odd that Frodo's clothing, when he wears the Ring, disappears with him.

So maybe spirits are just invisible, yet material.
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Old 11-14-2008, 01:29 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by alatar View Post
That would make some sense, except that some 'thing' had to transport the hobbits into the Barrow.

So are wights spirits in the material world? I guess so, as even the Nazgul can wear clothing. Odd that Frodo's clothing, when he wears the Ring, disappears with him.

So maybe spirits are just invisible, yet material.
I always considered the wights to be spirits (sent by the WiKi) that reanimated the corpses (or limbs of corpses, as it were) in the Barrows. The arm could have been one of those once attached to the long-dead prince of Cardolan, or his stuttering cousin, Stanley. So you see, the limbs/skeletal remains in the Barrows were once Dunedain (or even remains of previous cultures), but the spirits inhabiting them were wightish; therefore, there is no reason a healthy skeleton or two could not drag a few Hobbits into the Barrow. After all, there was always a wight laying about willing to lend a hand...or leg.
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Old 11-14-2008, 01:59 PM   #16
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I guess so, as even the Nazgul can wear clothing. Odd that Frodo's clothing, when he wears the Ring, disappears with him.
The nazgul do have material bodies. They are faded into invisibility, visible only in the Shadow World, but material nonetheless.

Frodo's clothing disappears with him because he wears the Ring. Nazgul clothing remains visible because the nazgul do not wear their Rings - Sauron keeps the Nine himself. When the nazgul desire to go around invisible, they have to remove the clothing (as in UT-Hunt for the Ring), because Sauron doesn't deign to lent them their Rings.

I fully agree with Morthoron about the wights. Most likely they were Houseless Elves inhabiting material corpses / bones - not their own, but those of the long-dead Dunedain.

I wonder what the Wights wanted to do with the three hobbits, what was all this dark rite about - maybe they wanted to get some fresh corpses to inhabit?

And why didn't the Wights treat Frodo the same way they treated the rest of the hobbits? Was it because he was caught the last, or was it because the Wights felt he had the Ring and were going to deliver him to the Witch-King?
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Old 11-17-2008, 10:07 PM   #17
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Quote:
Frodo's clothing disappears with him because he wears the Ring. Nazgul clothing remains visible because the nazgul do not wear their Rings - Sauron keeps the Nine himself. When the nazgul desire to go around invisible, they have to remove the clothing (as in UT-Hunt for the Ring), because Sauron doesn't deign to lent them their Rings.
Not to turn this into a Nazgûl discussion, but surely they did not go around naked most of the time (even though invisible)! I'd always thought them to be clad in whatever they had been wearing when they had 'faded' when invisible to eyes (or as you said, like Frodo when he puts on the Ring). They were then obligated to put on additional garments in order to be seen by all but Sauron. Frodo, when wearing the Ring, was able to see their original clothes.

Quote:
(Frodo) was able to see beneath their black wrappings. .......Under their mantles were long grey robes; upon their grey hairs were helms of silver; in their haggard hands were swords of steel.
FOTR p221. (paperback)
None of that was visible to any of the others present on Weathertop. Just the black stuff.

Quote:
I fully agree with Morthoron about the wights. Most likely they were Houseless Elves inhabiting material corpses / bones - not their own, but those of the long-dead Dunedain.
Elves? It doesn't seem they were allowed to be ghosts hanging about in the ether. The spirits of all Elves went to the Halls of Mandos after the destruction of their physical bodies. And something bothers me about that arm. If it was an appendage of a long dead Dúnadan, why was it not skeletal? No- it must have been part of the wight. Look at what happened when Frodo attacked it.

Quote:
With what strength he had he hewed at the crawling arm near the wrist, and the hand broke off; but at the same time the sword splintered up to the hilt. There was a shriek and the light vanished. In the dark there was a snarling noise.
FOTR p161 (paperback)

The sword broke just as it would have when striking a Nazgûl (though without the wounding of the sword-arm). The 'shriek' seems to indicate pain, the 'snarling noise', animalistic anger. Would any of that had happened if the arm had been simply a piece of corpse animated by another force?

Quote:
And why didn't the Wights treat Frodo the same way they treated the rest of the hobbits? Was it because he was caught the last, or was it because the Wights felt he had the Ring and were going to deliver him to the Witch-King?
My only thought on that is that the ring must have been a factor, though I don't know that the wights actually would have even been aware of its existence. They were, after all, sent there by the Witch-king around 1670 of the Third Age- long after the Ring was taken from Sauron and believed lost forever. Perhaps the Wight sensed the Ring and was confused and alarmed, not understanding what it was, yet still desiring to kill Frodo along with the rest. Maybe the Ring also gave Frodo some measure of ability to resist the Wight's spell.
It's really all conjecture, I think, because there just isn't a lot of textual evidence to go on to make a point, one way or another.
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Old 11-18-2008, 02:18 AM   #18
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Inziladun, I will open a new thread to discuss nazgul clothing.

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Elves? It doesn't seem they were allowed to be ghosts hanging about in the ether. The spirits of all Elves went to the Halls of Mandos after the destruction of their physical bodies.
They were supposed to go there, they were summoned, but they could refuse the summons and stay as disembodied ghosts in ME. It was against the Design of Eru, so such Elves became easy prey to Morgoth and his followers.

Here is what is said about them in Morgoth’s Ring (HoME 10), The Later Quenta Silmarillion, Laws and Customs among the Eldar:
Quote:
It is therefore a foolish and perilous thing, besides being a wrong deed forbidden justly by the appointed Rulers of Arda, if the Living seek to commune with the Unbodied, though the houseless may desire it, especially the most unworthy among them. For the Unbodied, wandering in the world, are those who at the least have refused the door of life and remain in regret and self-pity. Some are filled with bitterness, grievance, and envy. Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone. They will not speak truth or wisdom. To call on them is folly. To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one own’s will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant.

Some say that the Houseless desire bodies, though they are not willing to seek them lawfully by submission to the judgement of Mandos. The wicked among them will take bodies, if they can, unlawfully. The peril of communing with them is, therefore, not only the peril of being deluded by fantasies or lies: there is peril also of destruction. For one of the hungry Houseless, if it is admitted to the friendship of the Living, may seek to eject the fëa from its body; and in the contest for mastery the body may be gravely injured, even if it be not wrested from its rightful habitant. Or the Houseless may plead for shelter, and if it is admitted, then it will seek to enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes. It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them.
I guess the Witch-King, using necromantic, Morgul magic, helped the Houseless to become housed - not in the living bodies, but in the corpses of the Dunedain

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Originally Posted by Inziladun View Post
And something bothers me about that arm. If it was an appendage of a long dead Dúnadan, why was it not skeletal?
The "Last prince of Cardolan" whose barrow it was (see App. A), died in 1409. The Wights entered the Barrow soon after the Plague, in 1636. So the corpses had only about 230 years to rot naturally. If the conditions were good, the air dry etc., in such a short time the bodies could have been quite nicely preserved, especially if embalmed properly. And I guess Dunedain (with their obsession with Death and tombs) did embalm their dead, much like Egyptians.

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Originally Posted by Inziladun View Post
No- it must have been part of the wight. Look at what happened when Frodo attacked it. The sword broke just as it would have when striking a Nazgûl (though without the wounding of the sword-arm). The 'shriek' seems to indicate pain, the 'snarling noise', animalistic anger. Would any of that had happened if the arm had been simply a piece of corpse animated by another force?
Well if a spirit inhabits a body, it should feel pain when its body is damaged. After all, it is almost alive, even if it looks like a corpse or a skeleton.
As for the sword breaking, it is quite similar to nazgul case, in fact ("All swords perish that pierce that dreadful King"). Perhaps any blade that strikes some denizen of the Shadow world breaks as a rule.

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Originally Posted by Inziladun View Post
My only thought on that is that the ring must have been a factor, though I don't know that the wights actually would have even been aware of its existence. They were, after all, sent there by the Witch-king around 1670 of the Third Age- long after the Ring was taken from Sauron and believed lost forever. Perhaps the Wight sensed the Ring and was confused and alarmed, not understanding what it was, yet still desiring to kill Frodo along with the rest. Maybe the Ring also gave Frodo some measure of ability to resist the Wight's spell.
It's really all conjecture, I think, because there just isn't a lot of textual evidence to go on to make a point, one way or another.
There is some textual evidence. Firstly, we know that the Witch-King had visited the Barrow Wights right before Frodo et al. were trapped in the Barrow.
Quote:
The Black Captain […] himself visited the Barrow-downs. In notes on the movements of the Black Riders at that time it is said that the Black Captain stayed there for some days, and the Barrow-wights were roused, and all things of evil spirit, hostile to Elves and Men, were on the watch with malice in the Old Forest and on the Barrow-downs.-UT, "Hunt for the Ring"
I believe the Witch-King reminded the Wights that he was their master and explained to them the current goals. They had to know he wanted the One Ring. Strange it is that the Wight hadn't summoned the Witch-King straight away. Instead it started this strange dark ritual involving the three hobbits, but not Frodo. I can't understand the Wight's behaviour…

Last edited by Gordis; 11-18-2008 at 02:25 AM.
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Old 11-18-2008, 08:26 PM   #19
Inziladun
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They were supposed to go there, they were summoned, but they could refuse the summons and stay as disembodied ghosts in ME. It was against the Design of Eru, so such Elves became easy prey to Morgoth and his followers.
I don't have the HoME books, nor have I read them, so I was drawing from the 'core' works - LOTR, UT, and The Silmarillion. I knew of no instance of an Elvish spirit remaining bodiless outside Mandos. Even those who died in Valinor were there. All the HoME information is very interesting, and I must make some effort to acquire those volumes.

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The "Last prince of Cardolan" whose barrow it was (see App. A), died in 1409. The Wights entered the Barrow soon after the Plague, in 1636. So the corpses had only about 230 years to rot naturally. If the conditions were good, the air dry etc., in such a short time the bodies could have been quite nicely preserved, especially if embalmed properly. And I guess Dunedain (with their obsession with Death and tombs) did embalm their dead, much like Egyptians
The Barrow Downs didn't seem especially dry- green grass was everywhere, fog was in abundance, and while the hobbits were in Tom Bombadil's house they noted:

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The upper wind settled in the West and deeper and wetter clouds rolled up to spill their laden rain on the bare heads of the Downs.
FOTR p146 (paperback)

It is also interesting to observe that in the Moria Chamber of Mazarbul, presumably a far drier environment, we have this description:

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By both the doors they could now see that many bones were lying, and among them were broken swords and axe-heads, and cloven shields and helms.
FOTR p. 360 (paperback)

Those bodies, apparently the result of fighting between Balin's Dwarves and Orcs, had been there only thirty years or thereabouts, and already had decayed to bones.
Embalming could explain this, as the Númenoreans certainly practised the art, but I would question whether they did it as a matter of custom on all their people, or just their Kings (and later, Stewards).

Quote:
There is some textual evidence. Firstly, we know that the Witch-King had visited the Barrow Wights right before Frodo et al. were trapped in the Barrow.

Quote:
The Black Captain […] himself visited the Barrow-downs. In notes on the movements of the Black Riders at that time it is said that the Black Captain stayed there for some days, and the Barrow-wights were roused, and all things of evil spirit, hostile to Elves and Men, were on the watch with malice in the Old Forest and on the Barrow-downs.-UT, "Hunt for the Ring"

I believe the Witch-King reminded the Wights that he was their master and explained to them the current goals. They had to know he wanted the One Ring. Strange it is that the Wight hadn't summoned the Witch-King straight away. Instead it started this strange dark ritual involving the three hobbits, but not Frodo. I can't understand the Wight's behaviour…
Indeed. If the Wight knew of the existence of the Ring, why wasn't it taken from Frodo immediately? That is why I simply cannot believe that the Wights did know. The Witch-king stayed there for a while, and his presence acted as a catalyst to increase the hostility of other evil creatues in the area. But did he actually tell those creatures what he was doing, and what they should look for? Again, the actions of the Wight that took the hobbits seem to indicate it was doing its own thing, evil in itself, but not necessarily in lock step with the goals of the Witch-king.
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Old 11-19-2008, 06:07 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Inziladun View Post
Embalming could explain this, as the Númenoreans certainly practised the art, but I would question whether they did it as a matter of custom on all their people, or just their Kings (and later, Stewards).
Barrow-Downs were Royal tombs where Chieftains and Kings of the Edain were buried over the ages. Perhaps the oldest, pre-Numenorean, barrows had the corpses not embalmed, so the Wights who entered these mounds would have to be content with mere bones. The barrow in question, dating from TA 1409, obviously contained the embalmed corpses of the Last Prince of Cardolan and his family, including the Lady of the Brooch. They would be still well preserved in 1636 - so this particular Wight could have got a nice whole body.

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Indeed. If the Wight knew of the existence of the Ring, why wasn't it taken from Frodo immediately? That is why I simply cannot believe that the Wights did know. The Witch-king stayed there for a while, and his presence acted as a catalyst to increase the hostility of other evil creatues in the area. But did he actually tell those creatures what he was doing, and what they should look for? Again, the actions of the Wight that took the hobbits seem to indicate it was doing its own thing, evil in itself, but not necessarily in lock step with the goals of the Witch-king.
I think the Wight desired to "play" with the unnecessary, ringless hobbits, those the WK wouldn't want anyway. The hobbit who had the Ring was set aside, awaiting to be delivered to the nazgul.
I don't believe the Wight, being an Evil magical creature, was unable to feel which one of the hobbits carried a powerful artifact, imbued with Darkness. Maybe it didn't know what exactly it was, but it felt its magic strongly, I guess.
Orcs who had attacked Isildur were drawn to the Ring (UT), though they had no idea of its existence. The Watcher-in-the-water picked Frodo unerringly out of the company of nine, and so did the orc who rushed into the Chamber of Mazarbul and hit Frodo with a spear.

It is quite possible, IMO, that it was the Ring that permitted Frodo to overcome the Wight's magick and to wake up in time to save the others - much like the Ring unwittingly helped Sam against the Orcs at Cirith Ungol.
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Old 11-19-2008, 04:50 PM   #21
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another possiblity (re the preservation of the bodies). We hear how foggy (even without wight activity) and wet the downs are, maybe they're actually over a peat deposit (grass can grown on top of these right) if they are and the tombs aren't water tight bodies could have been essentially pickled (I know the tombs arent wet when they go in) but they could be just at the point where they are below the water table sometimes and above it at others; the hobbits could have been crossing in the dry season) the Orc and dwarf bodies would still be skeletionized, as they are on the surface, and things have to be buried in peat to be preserved by it. Peat bogs are pretty good at perserving bodies (just look at all of the ones in museums, like Tollund man) There is no mention of the hobbits seeing water damage in the toumbs but given how dark it was (and the circumstances they were in there, they probably wouln't have noticed) The only flaw I can see in this throy is that I am not sure how well peat preserves iron; I'm concerned the swords would have rusted away in those circumstances. The main problem I have with the embalming scenario is that, for the most part, embalming by itself wont last forever. Egyptina methods improved the cnages of a body mummifying well, but it was the hot, dry climate that kept the bodies preserved. Incan mummies became mummies because they were exposed to the drying winds of the Andes, Unzie (the iceman) had more or less the same thing happen to him. In wet conditions (like the downs apper to be), embaming doesn't last long, assuming that edain embalming tecniques were equal to our modern ones, the embalming substances would have worn off long ago way before the 220 or so years till the wight came. Most modern "wet" embalmings are disngned to last a few years to decades; longer than that usally requires someone to re-embalm the body from time to time, or at least preform some upkeep (as is done for Lenin's body).
One finally possiblity, there are places where for some reason, the soil naturally mummifies bodies (I think there's a town in either Mexico or Spain that famous for it) maybe the down are like that.
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