Does Galadriel have a Palantir?

[Arwen Imladris]

O.K. I know that this sounds kinda wierd but seriosly, her mirror did basically the same thing. It showed you different pictures. It also ended up focussing on Sauron. Is there a palantir in the bottom of the basin? Still sounds wierd but does any one think that either there was an 8th palantir made or that one of the lost ones ended up in lothlorien? Or was it just elf majic?

[Eol]

I do not think Galadriel had access to any of that. She is a three thousand year old, she would know a few things. As far as the mirror goes, it is a reflecting mirror, seeing things that they knew that would be coming, or might be coming their way.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Nope! But you seem to have a different question: how is Galadriel's mirror different from the Palantir?

I admit this is pure conjecture and we have no basis to form a comparison, but.. just for kicks..

Palantir
The Palantir were made by Feanor I believe, though I think not even Gandalf was certain of that. Their magic was inherent, meaning anyone could use them, even a hobbit like Pippin. You didn't have to have any special ability to activate the Palantir, though to control them and direct the images you needed to have some strength of mind, and know how.

The Palantir, the seven seeing stones were connected to one another, designed to seek eachother. To pull them away from "looking at" eachother was difficult under normal circumstances, because that was their purpose. They were used to guard the realm of Gondor, to communicate between the farthest ends of the realm. To tear one away against the strong will of one like Sauron holding another stone was extremely dangerous, fighting both the nature of the stones and his strength of mind.

They also could be imprinted. If the same scene was sought again and again, or the same stone was sought again and again, the seeing stone would return to that. So it was that when Pippin looked into the Palantir, it automatically looked to Barad-dur, where it was usually aimed, instead of wandering aimlessly under the will of someone who didn't know how to direct it. One of the seven seeing stones was used to look across the sea so often it would only do that. And the stone held in the hands of Denethor when he died was imprinted with that image forever after.

Where are the other Palantir?
I believe there was one stone at the Grey Havens, the one that only looked to the sea. There was the Orthanc stone. One that used to be at the tower that once stood on Weathertop. Was that one destroyed by dragons? Not sure... There was the stone of Osgiliath, which unlike the others could communicate with all the stones at once (conference, anyone?). That was thought to be at the bottom of the Anduin. There was the stone of Minas Tirith, the one at Minas Morgul (which was once Minas Ithil). I don't recall where the 7th stone was. Sauron likely had the stone from Minas Morgul.

The Mirror and Galadriel's Elven Ring
The Mirror is Galadriel's own magic, likely she used her ring to create it.

Galadriel had one of the three elven rings. It was not linked then to anything else, unlike the seeing stones, and the elven rings were freed from Sauron's power when he no longer held the one ring. All that was done with them was hidden from him. Since Celebrimbor had hidden them from Sauron, his grasp on them was tenuous. The mirror itself was not inherently magical. It depended on Galadriel to activate it. Sam could not have come back later, poured some water, and had another look at the Shire you see.

Elf Magic
I believe it was her ring at work there, because there's no indication in the Silmarillion that elves in general had special abilities. Magic is always described in connection with some object and some skill of the maker. Other magic is created through the power of the Valar and Maiar, and not technically magic but merely the natural abilities of demi-god-like beings of greater and lesser orders.

Anyways, those are my thoughts on the differences. There was no risk in using the mirror.

-Maril

[ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[Eol]

Palantiri: "Those that watch from afar", the seven Seeing Stones brought by Elendil and his sons from Numenor; made by Feanor in Aman( see 64, and The Two towers III, II). @76, 291-2 Silmarillion index

Hope that gives some clarification.

[Mithadan]

The seventh was at Annuminas and was lost, together with the Weathertop stone, when the last king of the North Kingdom died aboard one of Cirdan's ships in the Bay of Forochel.

Galadriel is, by the way, over 7000 years old at the time of the War of the Ring. She was considered to be the greatest of all the Noldor in mind and body save only Feanor. She may have been capable of making the Mirror even without her ring.

[Eol]

Sorry about my date on Galadriel.I think my time line a little misconscrewed. It cannot be that that I have been working with the Silmarillion for the past two months.....

heh this is rather intersting discussion so far.

[Arie]

...as far as the Palantir goes-no Galadriel doesn't have one-even if se did-why would dhe need it?-She already has a mirror

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

And she was a contemporary of Feanor! In Galadriel you have a being who had been alive virtually since the dawn of time, and seen the whole of the history of Middle Earth unfold. Far older than Elrond, she had seen Middle Earth before the Sun and Moon were created, and witnessed the destruction of the light of the Trees by Ungoliant.

The seventh was at Annuminas..

Thank you! I was hoping someone would solve that mystery. I assume that tidbit was in the HoME?

Even with Feanor, once he completed a work, whether it was the silmarils or the seeing stones, they functioned independently from him. Else at his death they would have ceased.

But the mirror depended upon Galadriel, was not invested with a power of its own.

So based on the way it functioned, similar to how the light of the elder days was preserved in Lorien in dependence upon Galadriel's wishes, I would say that she used the ring to create it.

That she was capable of creating the mirror without the ring... I'm not dismissing her abilities. But even among the elves talents such as Feanor's were singular. And it's talent, not greatness that is important here. Her interests and abilities seemed to follow different lines than the creation of magical things. Else in 7,000 years we would have seen more magical things created by her, and they would be important enough to her story to at least merit some mention.

-Maril

[ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[Tirned Tinnu]

Galadriel used a form of magic called divination. It can be done with mirrors, or crystals, magic seeing stones (as the palantir are) and with water.

I think that Tolkien had an image of Galadriel in his mind such as in this image of Circe:
Circe Looks Into The Waters Image

This is obviously a reference to Vivian, or to The Lady of The Lake, Nimue. (Aurthurian Tales.) All had seeing objects in their ownership.
The basin or mirror of Galadriel was highly polished on it's inside, to create the clearest image when water was cast into it. With the stars cast in it, and supposedly the star of Varda shining over it, and the use of her Ring, which is connected to Varda in some way, the waters (which were also blessed by Ulmo) would present messages to those who could discern them. Galadriel is old enough to understand and translate those messages, and clearly helped the Hobbits to understand them. The reason for her caution not to touch the water is obvious to diviners: her work might be ruined, as the waters and the mirror must be prepared in elaborate rituals, and blessed.

I do not suggest that you try divination if your religion prohibits it, but if you are allowed to and do try, you will see that it can open the mind to things happening in the world. I have not attempted it in some years. The last time I did was during Operation Desert Storm, and all I could see was red dust and war. I do not relish the use of such methods. It can be draining, and it can provoke feelings which untrained individuals cannot deal with. Certainly do your research before attempting any such divination.

Does that answer some of your question?

[ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ]

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Oh, very good Tirned Tinnu! You know, I've really appreciated your mystical-historical lore from both this and the "Dead Marshes" thread. First the history of the various English legends of the Will O' the Wisp and corpse lights, now Circe. It seems likely Tolkien would draw on such classic sources (not being much of a magic buff).

I admit, my sense that Galadriel was using a divination method that was not dependent on the Mirror itself being magical, comes from my own experience with divination. The precautions of not contaminating the object used for divination, of breathing on the surface after some prayer etc., are all very simliar to what is in use today. Standard practice you might say. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] I use a traditional Tibetan Buddhist method called 'Mo' involving counting beads on a mala (rosary), and one involving a translated text. Surprisingly accurate. Did one concerning a sick co-worker, which not only showed me the seriousness of his illness (no one had told me what it was, but I was given a picture of a hooded person holding a sickle - yipe - he had a kind of brain tumor that was inoperable), the fact he was going to be okay, and quick successive rich images of a catholic church, censers and brocade robes, money being given, a general attitude of benevolence towards others. As it worked out he was a big donor to the Catholic church, and many people relied on him for his advice. Two years later, he is fine; his son was born just a year ago.

-Maril

[Maikadilwen]

Galadriel used a form of magic called divination. It can be done with mirrors, or crystals, magic seeing stones (as the palantir are) and with water.

Actually, this specific form of divination is called "Scrying".

[Manwe Sulimo]

Actually, the "Annúminas" stone was mentioned in Appendix A of LotR.

Anyone up for a really far-fetched explanation? (Remember, this is all hypothetical/99.9% chance of not being true)

Galadriel did have a Palantír at the bottom of the Mirror....it was the first stone, the Master Stone (see Unfinished Tales).

The way it was recovered? One of Círdan's ships, on a voyage somewhere (maybe to Valinor?) ran into Meneltarma, or what remained of it, on the way. They landed and discovered the Master Stone and decided to bring it back to Middle-earth. Círdan, being the giving (*cough-stupid-cough*) Elf that he was, gave it to Galadriel. Galadriel, in an effort to conceal it from the Dúnedain for some nerfarious reason, decided to put it in a birdbath.

End of story. Hope you like it!

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Maik-of-Mordor, I stand corrected. Scrying it is, indeed.

But I agree, Manwe Sulimo, it was clearly a birdbath. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

-Maril

[Maikadilwen]

Well Maril, I believe I should know. I do it myself. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[lindil]

I must say Marileangorifurnimaluim,
I respectfully disagree w/ several points in your first reply here.

The elves imo weremagicalby nature.

an example of this that comes to mind is Finrod's battle w/ Sauron in Minas Tirith, Finrod had no magical weapons at all, only himself, and 'spells' which werer probably common to the Noldor [ at least high level one's].

Abilities such as osanwe [ most folks would consider 'psychic powers' akin if not identical to magic]
Also I recal along debate from the past regarding the ford of Bruinen being under Elrond's command. I had supposed this was due to the ring but althoughi cannot recall the arguments, several loremasters here convinced me otherwise.

And how could Elves impart magical abilities to theior say , weapons unless it was aprAt of their nature?

The dunedain likewise have been given [ by the valar/Eru and also thru elvish blood] a varying percentage of 'Elven' abilities; ability to make 'magical swords' 'unbreakable towers'[orthanc] are the first that come to mind.


Anyway as regards the palantir, I think it was essentially the same magical 'technology ' if you will as the palantir but created w/ a [hallowed/magically prepared] basin of Water. As for wether it would work w/ out her, probably not, but we really do not know to the degree she 'charged'the object and to what degree, she 'operated' it.

She had as was mentioned thousands of years to practice and develop such things and she was [ as is said of no one else but Luthien] close in counsel w/ Melian, [ both have girles around their land for inastance, though of a different nature and power].

The only difference between the Palntir and the Mirror in my opinion were the materials it was made of and it's lack of partners. The question as to who could operate it is to me an open one, we simply are given no additional information to be able to accurately infer on this. I do doubt that anyone could pop in to her private garden and check on their long lost relatives in Thranduil's realm, but can we say that Celeborn or a visiting Elrond or Arwen needed help/permission?

[Tirned Tinnu]

Ahhhhh! Now this is what I call a discussion! Fabulous! *Tirned claps her hands together in excitement*
Now!
Marileangorifurnimaluim! First of all I want to say thank you, for that wonderful first-hand commentary on your experiences with skrying-health diagnoses! Absolutely fascinating! It's good to be in the presence of ones who know.

Maikadilwen! Thank you for being so precise! I could not remember how to spell skrying, and so, annoyed and instead of looking it up I just left it out. Impossibly lazy of me, but there it is. I'm glad you have experience with this too. I didn't get the form of your skrying, was it water, crystaline or other? Mine, for the record, was with crystal. However, one might argue that the miriad times I've consulted the tarot are just about the same thing. I don't really think it's terribly alike. The same mind stuff goes into it, surely, but the focus on events is different.

Ah! Lindil, your argument is a good one. The basin and the palantir are definitely described differently. SO! What have we now... something manufactured by Galadriel or her people, something brought out of the Undying Lands, or something created by Elves in Middle Earth other than Galadriel or her people, perhaps... No, it's too far fetched - but as we all know Galadriel spent a bit of time sharing knowlege with Melian the Maia...
Perhaps she got it in Thingol's realm? There could be a number of theories! Oh dear. What a can of worms we've opened.

I still think it's certainly a hallowed object, yes, and requires that the person operating it know its key, hum, its spell of activation. That might not be accurate! Are we speaking of an item that utilizes speak recognition? Or musical tonality? Is it only a blessing on the water? Is it telpathic viewing, as was stated earlier in our conversation?

Wait now. What if we look at this object as technology, as the Elves would have, hmmm?
Think now. What metal might pick up brain waves, ripples in time, camera signals, and be able to display them? Nothing we know of. Huh. *looking flustered* Sounds rather Star Trek or rather Whovian to me! Does it to you? Perhaps it's something like the Guardian of Forever, a computerized gadget that seems like solid rock. Like a megalith, or in this case, an artifact, like the Key to Time, or The Harp of Rasillon. Hidden technology with artsy design? I've even heard of Romaulans(Who by the way remind me of Elves just as the Vucans do, just look at those ears... Roddenbery had read Tolkien!)who had a device to use in battle, one of Telepathic amplification.

Oh dear. My brainstorming is going of the deep end. So what do you think?
*sits and waits to see what happens now...gets herself a cuppa and some biscuits. Anyone for tea?*

[ September 13, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ]

[lindil]

I would synopsize and slightly expand my last post by saying that the palantir acted as an object to both aid Osanwe by it's [ab]/user's and to grant vision.

The mirror as far as we know was not used in an Osanwe context, as galadriel [ and doubtless her inner circle] were adept at it's practice w/ out the mirror. Elrond give evidence of this in FotR when he says that as he looks south 'all is dark to him under the Shadow' which to my mind means normally he CAN cast his mind out and receive impressions/information from great distances. Arwen also is mentioned [ forget where] as watching over Aragorn on all of his travels.

Boy that kind of attention would make wandering for 60 years easier.

So I suppose i have to modify my earlier statement abit.

The palantir had 3 funtions [ not counting the unique one in the white Towers]

1.Images
a> present
b> future/past [great for writing history!>
2.Osanwe

The Mirror had [again as far as I know] only the Images functions [but also like the palantir available in erratic past/present/future modes].

Since we have no detailed description of Galadriel herself using the Mirror w/ out hobbits present, we do not know if she could like an experienced or 'lawful' user of the Palantir direct it according to her will. I rather imagine she could. So like the palantir it had a 'random' [although that is not really the word I want as it does not include the 'fate'/'destiny'qualities shown to Sam and Frodo] and I surmise a 'dircted' or 'Focused' function.

galadriel mentions during the course of the session w/ the hobbits [arggghhh I knew it !!! as I am think about the scene from the book I am seeing Kate blanchett! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ]any way Galadriel describes to them 'that she 'knows the mind of Sauron - at least as it concerns the Elves]. Now was this knowledge from

• the use of the Mirror [w/ built in Palantir like Osanwe functions ]?
• The mirror w/ her own osanwe skills used in conjunction?
• Osanwe alone?

I have not read in any detail the HoME LotR volumes [6-9]or seen any reference to these questions in the Letter's. All of this is from memory I really do need to re-read the Palantir chapter in UT and the Mirror of galadriel again, so if any one can point out something I have missed...

[Nar]

It seems to me that if the mirror of Galadriel shows what has been, is, and might be (barring the freedom of Man) then it must be in contact with the song that defined all of Arda and its history (subject to freedom). The song ceased before time began, but let us suppose the echoes remain until the end of time.

Song, voices rising, harmonics, vibrations--

Still, clear water in a fine basin forged thin and true, trembles to the finest echo murmuring from the song. These ripples translate into another medium the notes that define much or most of the History of Middle Earth. They are caught in starlight derived from the oldest of trees. This starlight, a light like no other, is alternately scattered and focused by the concentric ripples --rings of song, like the rings of a tree. They represent the tale of years, expanding ever outward across the surface of the water from the deep centre to silver rim.

At each moment, all the years, all of the song, is caught in the concentric ripples, but what picture does the observing mind form of of this song of rings? Moment to moment, the picture changes according to the filter the receptive mind applies to the endlessly renewed pattern of diffusion and convergence. What each mind perceives at any given moment depends on the mood, current cares, and nature of the perceiver-- but the song, all of it, is always there, trembling across the surface.

[ September 13, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

[lindil]

Very worthwhile theory Nar.

[Nar]

Thank you, lindil. Particularly as it owed a lot to your review of JRRT's Osanwe-Kenta, for which I thank you very much. Now that I've got that theory out of my system (mostly), I'll try to address your question about Galadriel knowing the mind of Sauron-- wouldn't the protection of 'unwill' apply to Sauron as well? Then she could not force her way into Sauron's mind, and why would Sauron willingly allow her access-- he couldn't have hoped to corrupt her, could he?

Nevertheless, I tend to think it was Osanwe, because of the way she talks about it: 'I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the elves.'

I suppose Sauron's sending out his dominating consciousness into all his servants and questing to know her mind and the minds of others wrecked his 'unwill' defenses. His charge laid him open to her flanking attack, mentally speaking.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Nar, that's lovely. I like it.

lindil, I admit I had to click on the link to your article on Osanwe to know what the heck you were referring to. Okay. Middle-Earth telepathy. If I hadn't just read Tolkien's own words on the subject...

Hm. Tolkien implies that Osanwe is inherent to all life, dependent on 'openess', etc., and distorted by the Hroa for physical beings. One would assume that the difference between the Hroa of men and elves would imply that men have less openess to this than the elves. Particularly as men have the capacity to rule their own fates, and in ways are not bound to the song, but add to it.

It fits nicely into Nar's theory that the magic is a reflection of the song of Arda.

As for the elves being magical, I think the Silmarillion makes it clear that elves learned their lore from the Valar. We forget that Galadriel likely learned this art of scrying directly from Varda, Elbereth herself. Feanor learned the workings of gems from Aule. So Mithadan's point about Galadriel being one of the greatest of the Nolder is well taken. The dark elves (outside of Thingol and Melian's realm), those who did not go to Valinor, display no such abilities.

Galadriel's own words to Sam indicate that she does not consider this 'magic' any more than you or I would consider our illusory posts on this illusory forum to be 'magic.' We understand more or less how it works. All the magic we have today (such as computers) comes from an understanding of natural laws. And, since we're way out on a limb of raw theory here, I think that is what she learned from Varda, is how to utilize those natural laws. Once again, Nar's theory seems spot on.

Also, when it comes to the rings, they seem to merely enhance and magnify the abilities of the wearer. "Giving abilities according to their stature." They are subtle, not magical flamethrowers. Without her ring, her powers were greatly diminished if you recall. She was no longer able to extend the preservation of the Eldar days over the whole land of Lorien.

So I amend my earlier theory. While it's possible Galadriel used her ring out of convenience (and habit) to enhance her scrying, in all likelihood she could have created the mirror or something similar, without it.

Nar - Regarding knowing the mind of Sauron, I think that the gathering of information, an osanwe act of listening can be a passive act, while one who is directing a war is in a aggressive mode. That was the impression that I had. Since she mentioned her mind would have been exposed in particular should Sauron recover the One ring, I suspect that it was her ring once again that gave her that extra advantage. After all, he lost his.

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

-Maril

[ September 13, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[Nar]

Thank you very much, Maril! Interesting thoughts on passive receiving and active pushing and probing. I recognize Galadriel would have been exposed by that treacherous connection Sauron had forged between the one and the three, but I think her mind was hidden not by the power of her ring, but because she was not misusing Osanwe, so her unwill held.

Those are excellent points about Elbereth and Aule. Those moments in Frodo and Sam's journey towards through cliff, marsh and wastelands where Sam says Galadriel's name and something happens... the rope unknots, or light breaks through the murky air, I begin to feel that Galadriel and Elbereth are truly acting in concert ... almost as one. Hmm, let me clarify that. Not that they are merged in any way, they remain separate entities, elf and Vala. But that when Sam says 'the Lady', the word doubles, although he's not consciously aware of this, and he therefore addresses both in one; both hear, both help as they can: Galadriel with her rope (you know she made it herself) and Elbereth with the light and Manwe's winds.

Possibly Galadriel intended all along to open a larger idea of 'the Lady' in Sam's mind than he could understand at that time in his development, so that he would be able to speak to and think of her, a great beautiful lady he remembers all in white under the stars, a great lady he had met and spoken with, and thus gain contact with Elbereth in a way within the means and nerve of a plain hobbit.

As far as the great rings go, the three rings' power, their bearers' natures, and the elements signified seem to be adapted to one another in a fluid and natural way-- very elvish. There's no similar distinction with the rings of men and dwarves-- perhaps those rings could have varied their nature, had their bearers been of a responsive temperament, or perhaps Sauron's tainting of them dulled their functioning. Not much is said of those rings, so I'm working from the sketch of the ring of Thorin's house. It did not corrupt its bearers into greed, their honor resisted, but it did not enhance its bearers' purposes without gold to multiply. That did not reflect the need or the character of Thorin's house particularly. That ring was not attuned to their nature in the way the three rings were to their bearers.

The ring of fire ends with Gandalf, who kindles hearts and minds, and, I think, was of a nature to do that with or without a ring of power. This is much more of a match between like-natured entities than an individual triumphantly acquiring a treasure. Elrond suits the air in his insight and thoughtfulness, Galadriel suits the water in her changeability and qualities both life-giving and dangerous. She seems to reflect and scatter starlight as water does, As master of Rivendell and wise councillor, Elrond seems to be a self-effacing medium for other's existence that nevertheless sustains life as air does. He doesn't scatter light, but he doesn't impede it. Gandalf is a source of some light (gleaming eyes) but more warmth (think of Theoden).

This seems very elvish to me. Their own rings of power companion them as their horses do-- like bearer finds like artifact and a cooperative relationship is born: no bridle, just going in the same direction; no mastery but a merging of like nature into like mind.

[lindil]

maril:

As for the elves being magical, I think the Silmarillion makes it clear that elves learned their lore from the Valar. We forget that Galadriel likely learned this art of scrying directly from Varda, Elbereth herself. Feanor learned the workings of gems from Aule. So Mithadan's point about Galadriel being one of the greatest of the Nolder is well taken. The dark elves (outside of Thingol and Melian's realm), those who did not go to Valinor, display no such abilities.

I think that while there is no question that the high Elves learned 'techniques and lore' if you will from the Ainur, the source of their magic was inherrent. Tutelage only refined it and helped it grow. Let us look at Eol's skills [ increased but not rooted in the naugrim].

For instance the Elvish abolity to convey the meaning of their songs directly to the mind and heart wether the words were understood or not was a natural elvish talent. refined and amplified in the Undying lands no doubt [ though Daeron was held the greatest of Elven minstrils]but there none the less.

Although i am hesitant to use the hobbit as a definitive source for subtleties of Elven 'magic'. i think the glimpses we see of Thranduil's realm hold true more or less. And remember from UT we learn that Thranduil was no big fan of the Noldor [ having a 2nd hand prejudice form his father a Driathrim].

it is past my bed time so...

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[bombur]

Math seems to be against Feanor having made SEVEN Palantir. As far as we know, seven seeing stones were prought from sinking numenor by Elendil... we have no idea how many there originally were. Such great magics are usually made to serve some purpose. Feanor had seven sons (+ 2 halfbrothers, father, 6 nephews, 1 niece, several members of the family also had spouses...). Theese are the people Feanor would have wanted to communicate with. So seven palantirs do not add up. Either one son or the father would have to do without. Maybe there were originally 18. One for each blood-relative and one for Feanor. At least we can assume there was 8. How many ended up below the sea when Numenor sank? Why might Galadriel not have palantir anyway. If 18 were made, 1 was given to her from the start. She is feanors dear niece after all.

She would not need one though.

Galadriel is likely the oldest elf living and she spent much time with sons of feanor learning the wisdom of that family. Galadriel is quite able to reproduce many works of feanor. The bottle she gives to Frodo seems to have similarities with silmarils, so why not a mirror of water that has similarities with palantir.

Besize she has an eleven ring, not to mention that of AIR! Air is the ancient element associated with visions and such.


Janne Harju


PS. I’d say that magic is rather fluid thing in definition. Make armor, shield and sword using modern industrial carbon steel, light arc welding, aluminium compounds, damasking, light airoplane steel, electric-chemical plating etc. Take the set to the early middle age. It will functionally be magic. The sword you can use to strike through the iron batons locals call swords. You can name the sword Excalibur. Eleves are not magic beings. But they are superior craftsmen and their skill extend to creating such items like gems that store the light of the trees. They are also skilled in many other fields like healing arts. The song-duel of Sauron and Finrod and the feats of Luthien are the great exemptions to this. None is using spells, rather skills that are almost magical in their greatness. Finrods songduel is almost like some parts of Kalevala. It is not a metaphore for spellcasting. It is song-duel, a type of innate laws-of-nature magic confrontation that will have very real consaquences to the loser even though no ”spells” are ”cast.” I think Narils post about the nature of eleven magic as a function of the knowledge of the laws of nature was very good. The natural greatness of skills and wisdom the eleves have, manifested in their own ways in the moriquendi even... think of Legolas. He does many things that seem like magic to us, they are nothing more then applying principles learned to practise however. One just can walk on snow without sinking, if one knows how to do it [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] .

[lindil]

bombur : Feanor had seven sons (+ 2
halfbrothers, father, 6 nephews, 1 niece, several members of the family also
had spouses...). Theese are the people Feanor would have wanted to
communicate with. So seven palantirs do not add up.

Lindil: sorry, but Feanor 'hated the guts' as we say of his 1/2 relatives. Proof being he not only left them behind in Valinor, but burnt the ships as a way of rubbing salt in the wounds.

Feanor created to create. I do not think he had any gift of perspective as to the outcome of what he was doing. a trait he passsed down in some measure to his grandson. I do not see him saying, now one palntir for x and one for y. I can well imagine that to create 7 such artifafcts may well have left him spent for a year. Remember he told the Valar he could not remake the Silmarillis even if he tried.

I do agree w/ you re: Magic, although much of the 'disagreement stems from each of us using English in a different way. Of course if you know a secret it is not magic anymore. But much of the so called magical technology relies often on an x factor's not everything is under control. Or Feanor could have created dozens of Silmarills.

Even a 'spell' is a codified something. it may rely on the astral plane oor demons and or both but there is structure of a sort to it. But often X factors as well. For masters the X factors are less but even more mysterious i would guess.

I know in Tai-Chi you aim to train your body and energy to respond to your intuition [among other things], which may not even be something you are aware of. So call it art, science or magic. but in all that is elvish there is a quality which is rare for most people, and impossible for even more.

I suppose the magic thread [Saulotus'] is where we should head for anything further in this direction.

very good thread though!

[bombur]

An old joke....

How many members of internet discussiongroup/mailinglist members does it take to change a lightbulb? 1841

1 does it and tells of it. 14 shares personal experiences. 10 expresses doubts of the competency of the bulb changer. 27 Complains of too academic terminology used. 53 flames the complainers. 12 sends a message with header ”test”. 156 COMPLAINS TO THE PROBLEM THAT BULB CHANGING DOES BELONG ON THE THREAD/LIST. 41 complains of the academic terminology in the flame-mail. 25 announces that they are too busy to participate the discussion. 109 COMPLAINS THAT THE THREAD/LIST IS NOT FOR DISCUSSION OF BULB CHANGING AND SUGGEST BULBCHANGE.COM DISCUSSIONSITE. 203 demands that the messages of bulb changing cease to be forwarded to the threads/lists of homemakers & comicfans. 111 defends forwarding by fact that electric light is required for both reading and homemaking.. 306 genuinely discusses of lightbulbs. 27 mails webadresses for lightbulb pages. 4 wants to know where to find best porn in the internet. 14 informs that the webadresses for lightbulb pages are faulted and sends corrections. 172 complain that one cannot find porn even with the corrected webadresses. 33 paste all the previous mails together and send them with the note ”I agree”. 12 ask for advise on how to unregister/discontinue the order for the list because they are tired of lightbulbs. 19 Adds ”so do I” to the ”I agree” mails and send them. 4 SUGGEST THAT THE DEBATORS GET A NEW LIST / OPEN A NEW THREAD FOR BULB CHANGING DISCUSSION. 56 Sends information on where to find pictures of Michael Jackson. 1 Wants to form a new bulbchanging discussion forum. 47 INFORMS THAT FOR THIS PURPOSE THERE ALREADY IS A HOME-ELECTRICIAN THREAD/LIST. 243 complains that there was no porn in the home.electrician either. 141 VOTE FOR OPENING A BULBCHANGE LIST/THREAD

[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Fact is that when people think of things and discuss them subject drifts arise and enrich the diuscussion. Thinking how Galadriel did her tricks might lead to some kind of passing viewing of magic in the middle earth. Please do not police the subject drifts. I prefer not to discuss the issue in the magic thread, because my concept of the thing is totally different from the basic consept of that discussion and I’m not in the mood for a hot debate. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

It would seem to me that there is no magic as a modern person understands it in middle earth. There are basically two things alike to it, sources of power one might say. There is art-inclination, ones skill and sense of beauty or purpose, and then there is ones personal innate might. Theese are used to become inspired so to say. Typical achievement would be to make items that have a degree of purpose and might. Towers that endure or doors that open at a word. They can be used to learn (not to do... to learn) tricks so to say. Like lighting fire from nothing or walking over dry leaves without cracking them. Basically it is not a feature of the man/elf/dwarf/ainur, but that of the world. To proper harnessing of ones chi ( [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ) world will comply. A smith feanor will be able to able to learn making of things that shine their own light because he has passion, power, art, talent and knowledge. The line between natural and magic is farther in the middle earth then in ours. A smith can learn to forge jewels.

So Galadriel is not a visionary because of the ring. She was given the ring of air because she is visionary. Gandalf is not popular fireworks maker because he knows how to manipulate fire. He knows how to manipulate fire because he likes to play with it. Finrod and Sauron are not singing spells. They are testing their relative mights, Gandalf and Saruman are not debating in Orthanc, they are doing the same... upon reaching a clear result, world will compy to the stronger and he can impose enchantment over the weaker. It is not magic, it is merely local law of nature. There are passes of the exact same nature in Kalevala. In Irish myth as well, as one acchieves superiority in song of beauty or debate of wisdom one can impose a geas on the loser... not because one were ”magic” but because that is how the world works.

This leads to few interresting implications....

Only such who creates ”to create” CAN acchieve the kind of ability Feanor did. But Feanor said of silmarills something to the effect that there are SOME works that are so great that the maker can never do them again... he is speaking of the silmarils as his greatest work. Silmarils were created by his purest inspiration and ONLY to be beautiful works of art. This same restriction does not apply to the more practical and conventional works of his. He forged many ”terrible” swords and weapons to his sons and himself. Now to which category do the palantir fall?

Galadriel is not divining. What she is doing is that she is looking through the water to distant place as she has long time ago learned how to do it. Only one who seeks wisdom and knowledge as an end and purpose in itself can learn to do this. Perhaps she learned to do this by using palantir at times gone by though she does not need one anymore. Or perhaps while Feanor was learning from Aule she learned from Varda. Or perhaps she merely has been learning inch by inch to see farther as this has been her inclination.

Perhaps even Feanor made the palantir together with Galadriel. After all, the Palantir bother me. Where did this power come from. It would be the only instance in the history of middle earth of someone making an item having some kind of basic capability that the maker does not have. The items seem to empower and add to qualities already there. Feanor loved light and his heart was full of fire and the light of the trees surrounded him, so he was able to make the silmarils. But his making the Palantirs is like a blind man inventing TV-camera. One can hardly categorise him as farsighted person. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Now Galadriel was the seer, Feanor the maker, Galadriel was in good terms with this side of the family.

What I mean is that Galadriel has had plenty of chance to get a palantir. But I think she is well beyond what palantir are. Only those who cannot walk need a wheelchair. The palantir have a natural function that imitate her natural skill, hardly vise versa.


Janne Harju

[lindil]

sorrry Bombur, if my suggestion re: the thread felt like policing, it was merely a suggestion.
Now if we were in my forum... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

you mentioned the following:

1-Now to which
category do the palantir fall?

2-Galadriel is not divining. What she is doing is that she is looking through the
water to distant place as she has long time ago learned how to do it. 3-Perhaps even Feanor made the palantir together with Galadriel. After all, the
Palantir bother me. Where did this power come from.4- It would be the only
instance in the history of middle earth of someone making an item having
some kind of basic capability that the maker does not have.

Out of your many points [most of which i agree with in at least some of their aspects] I see he above 4 differently.

1- I would [ purely my opinion here] put the Palantir much closer to the Silmarils because of the complexity of their functions they are as i have mentioned elsewhere 'crystalized Osanwe' + skrying.
2- As far as I can tell we do not know exactly what Galadriel was doing, what was innate and what was Osanwe and what belonged to the properties of the mirror. we are only given 2 examples of anyone working w/ the mirror and neither of them is her. This point was broached several posts above.
3- Extremely unlikely. here's why :
a> Gandalf mentioned [to pippinI think on the ride to Gondor] of wanting to look back to Valinor in the stone and see the 'hands and mind of Feanor at work' If Galadriel had had a hand in the Palantir G. would have mentioned it also
b> in the long discussion on the Palantir in UT we see nothing re: Galadriel at all.
c> As I have said before Feanor was not on good relations w/ his father's children by Indis or Indis herself.
The Silmarillion shows some of this. Shibboleth of Feanor [ and an extract of it in UT in the Galadriel and Celeborn chapter] in PoME and also the Finwe and Miriel material in MR all show a Feanor who despised his 1/2 kin. Some of the sons of Feanor are known to have had close friends among their cousins [ Aredhel w/ Celgorm amd Curufin, Fingon and Maedhros are mentioned] Feanor was an unhappy genius and seemingly a loner. I recall somewhere a saying that 'ever he worked alone', his spirit was far too great for his personality to manage.
4- Osanwe has many similarities to the palantir. The essential difference as far as I can tell is in the sense of sight. Sending the mind forth, or a specific emanation of the mind i.e. a thought [ as a palantir does] is only a step away from attaching vision to the thought and receiving it back [ remote viewing] I had previously ascribed this ability to the Elves in some measure but upon checking what i thought was the primary reference in FotR [Elrond to the ccompany before the departure] I am now of a different opinion, re: any examples of this ability among the Elves [ can anyone cite examples?].


The Osanwe Kenta states that all 'minds' are equal in status thought they differ in capacity and strength .
We know the Valar [ at least manwe and morgoth] can 'see' almost w/out limit, although and this most certainly does deserve a thread of it's own : )] though I know of no exploartion of the extant and limitations of this. So w/ the above quote in mind it is possible that the function of remote viewing [ if we take it as a latent capacity in all incarnates] was temporarily isolated and somehow imprinted on the Palantir. I am only specualting here w/ in the texts as well as i can. Others will hopefully have more research [from the Legendarium] to add.


so in short Feanor [ and all incarnates] may have 'remote-veiwing ' capabilities [ as surely semms the case if modern tales of government employ of remote-viewres be even partially true]. Feanor seems to have taken the trouble to at least temporarily isolate this latent ability and 'imprint' or them on a 'crystal' sphere.


I agree w/ you though Bombur that vision was not Feanor's strong suit by nature Not that these seem to be Feanor's strong suit as you mention but he may well have in his younger days striven mightily against his own weakness.

One final point though Bombur; while Galadriel's Ring was Nenya and had a white stone it was the ring of Water. And Elrond's was the ring of Air w/ a blue Sapphire. Backwards from the usual and to me obvious elemantal associations, but perhaps explainable in that the sky is [seen as] blue and water can be clear and even white upon occasion of great stirring. I also posted the reverse correspondences awhile back and was corrected by the Chief -Wight himself if I recall. I just took that info from the 'Complete Guide to M-E' although previously I checked the LotR and Silm ['of the rings of power...' ] references myself.