Second-guessing Peter Jackson

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Kalimac and Amarinth, welcome to the re-writing playground! Let's see, the way we could rewrite the Merry & Pippin meeting, and your points Amar..<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I like the "abbreviated" version of "A Conspiracy Unmasked" where Frodo leaves a week later to stay with Merry, but if you want to be even more conservative with time - considering that realistically we're probably looking at a maximum of eight minutes for all of this to happen - why not just have Frodo and Sam stop the night at Merry's place in Buckland on their way out of the Shire (so he could still leave instantaneously, no need to show shots of him planning the trip)? This would introduce Merry and Pippin in a believable way (why wouldn't Frodo crash at Cousin Merry's?), you could work in a line about "My cousin lives not far from here" thus establishing the relationship, and by showing Frodo *spending the night* somewhere you could also give the viewer a sense of time passing and make them realize that this journey does take quite a few days - I know they tried to do that in the movie as is (showing Frodo and Sam cooking over a fire in the woods, and so forth) but still the impression you were left with was that it took about twelve hours for them to reach Bree, when in fact even Buckland was a good couple of days away from Hobbiton. (For people who like the "farhest away from home I've ever been" line, that could be kept in, since it's unlikely that Sam ever *did* visit Buckland before). And since Black Riders have been shown as being all over the place, it's likely that Merry and Pippin would have heard or seen them before Frodo and Sam arrived, and seeing Sam's protectiveness and Frodo's terror would put two and two together (possibly an oblique reference to Bilbo's travels, and the fact that they were asking for "Baggins") and announce in the morning that they were coming along to help protect him. If nothing else this would give them time to get some luggage together and lock up the hole, instead of literally running off in what they stood up in. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Good points all. But how would we fit levity into this version? The Black Riders and all are so dark, especially with everything shortened, we need the comic relief. Even if stealing carrots is a little lame. We could take snippets of Crickhollow, the first morning on the walk in the Shire, steal some lines from Tom Bombadil's house.. hmmm...<BR><UL TYPE=SQUARE>At Merry's -<BR>Merry: "Wake up everyone!"<BR>Frodo: "Oh, 4 o'clock, what was I thinking..? Surely even black riders sleep."<BR>Pippin (mischevious): "Sam, it's half past nine, have you got the bathwater hot?"<BR>Sam, bleary: "No - the time! My gosh, no, I haven't sir!"<BR>Frodo, throws pillow at Pippin: "Just for that, You make breakfast."<BR>Merry: "Breakfast is ready. But last one down gets grass and rainwater!"<BR>Frodo laughs, already dressed he has a head start; fires back at Pippin: "Eldest or quickest, either way you're last!" <BR>Pippin tears after him, hopping in a pant-leg.<P>Hobbits whooping and laughing tumble down the stairs (it is Brandy Hall) pulling on and tripping over pants and shoelaces, half-buttoning shirts as they run, Pippin slides down bannister, passing Sam. Merry cuts Pippin off at the corner. <P>Last scene cuts to Merry placing a plateful of grass with a flourish in front of Pippin. The other hobbits laugh and eat.<BR>Pippin (crosses his arms): "Oh, you're funny."<BR>Sam passes him a plate of real food.</UL><P>Well, that was fun, but maybe not visual enough. Also that means Sam and Frodo are alone when they meet the Black Rider, which is way too scary for that point in the story. Let's think about this.<P>Amar, right on with Galadriel. <BR><UL TYPE=SQUARE>All we needed was a soft laugh, adding "gently are you avenged for my test of your heart. So you tempt me. You offer the ring freely. I do admit..." Then at the end (after greatly reduced CGI), she smiles sadly "I pass your test."</UL><P>Council of Elrond. It would be tough to make it stand out without making it clear how contested the ring was. People sitting around a table is pretty dull, unless it is the first time you've heard the stories they tell. Yet if you tell them in flashback, you lose the immediacy of the story, and lose the audience. I thought the arguing was overdone. But, focusing on the ring during the fight as PJ did demonstrated the ring was causing all this, and foreshadowed Boromir's fall. <P>But I dunno.. what could we do.. I know! <UL TYPE=SQUARE>Gandalf could interrupt the discussion when it started to break into an argument, reading the "one ring to rule them all" in the Mordor tongue, stunning them into silence. <BR>Elrond: "No one has ever spoken that tongue here before."<BR>Gandalf: "Nor will again, I hope. I do not ask pardon. This is the One Ring. There is only one course left to us: it must be destroyed."<BR>Silence...<BR>Frodo: "I will take the ring.<BR>Though I do not know the way."</UL><P>I think the unwilling heir gives more room for the expanded role of Arwen, and lets Aragorn develop as a character more clearly. In the book there is a contrast between Aragorn in the beginning, and Aragorn in his first meeting with Eomer. Tolkien had time to explain the difference, by letting us see Aragorn through Legolas' eyes, so we're not sure whether Aragorn changed or we just saw a different side of him. Can't do that in a movie, you need concrete events to show us <I>why</I> Aragorn changed.<P>I think if we had Arwen speaking elvish throughout she would not have been so annoying. PJ was planning to do this, don't know what changed his mind.<p>[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[Kalimac]

Hey, I like that! Though I'm not sure why you think it wouldn't be visual enough - I'm sure you could get in enough good shots of the interior of Brandy Hall to keep the viewer interested (at least if it's anything like Bag End in the decorations department). And it might just be possible to pull off having Frodo and Sam encountering a Black Rider by themselves - it's true that having Pippin The Oblivious along is what really lightens that scene up ("Do you think we shall see any Black Riders today?" as if they were some kind of wild onion). But Sam at the beginning is still a fairly comic character, even in the books, so you could probably give him a few of Pippin's comments (in slightly more respectful language) and still keep the flavor of it. This might even make the change in Sam, and his growing seriousness and understanding, seem more deep later on, especially after Weathertop (let alone what we'll see in the next two movies). <P>And for the scene where they arrive at Merry's (Pippin is presumably staying over anyway since they spend all their time together): working on the principle of "mornings are wiser than evenings" have the dismal discussion in the evening, maybe taking a few lines from "A Conspiracy Unmasked" or even the Farmer Maggot scene - something along the lines of <P>Merry: "Really, Frodo, do you think we can't understand what's going on? Stories of those Black Folk all over, looking for a Baggins - why, I saw a Rider myself only the other evening, when I was crossing the Brandywine. Then you and old Sam turn up here, shaking like leaves and you more close-mouthed than old Gandalf, even." <P>Pippin: "Merry, I thought it was old Bilbo they were looking for! After all he's the one who went traveling that time, he's the one likely to know queer foreigners like that, not Frodo, who doesn't even come to Tookland!"<P>Sam: "They weren't looking for Mr. Bilbo, Master Pippin, leastways I don't think they were, but if you ask my opinion they were after his Ri-" [stops, blushes. Oops].<P>Frodo: "Sam!"<P>Merry: "His Ring, you mean? Don't look like that, Frodo. Bilbo wasn't as good at keeping secrets as he thought..." Riff over to "Conspiracy Unmasked" conversation, where Merry tells the story of seeing Bilbo disappear and catching a glimpse of the Ring, and ending with him and Pippin giving each other a silent look for a moment, and then saying that they're coming with, of course; they couldn't let him go with just Sam, knowing what he's heading into. <P>Then the next morning, with the sun up and everything looking much more sanguine, have a scene like you described with maybe a few good shots of them packing in haste (Come on, Pippin's going to be bringing all the food he can carry). <P>Whew. OK, that's enough - sorry about that. More later, I promise I'll be constructive about other scenes as well .

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

I like it! <P>But I think both of our versions would end up on the cutting room floor. There is length to consider. We're cutting out as many Frodo/ring close-ups as we can, and some length out of the action scenes, but there's only so much we can add.<P> Maril

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

I think my next viewing of the movie will be with a stopwatch. Each time I think a close up of Frodo is belaboring the point, or an action scene is overly long, I'll push the button. Then I'll know how much time we really have to work with.<P>You think I'm kidding, don't you? <P>Another concern is pacing. That's one thing I think PJ got just about right, if it was a little exhausting and needed longer gentle moments. I suspect when PJ had to trim that last 10-15 minutes, it was consistantly the softer moments that were left on the floor. It's hard to cut thousands of dollars of carefully planned CGI, but easy to lop off a few minutes of dialogue or scenery that doesn't drive the plot.<P>I think your point about the passage of time is spot on though. The time was a little too compressed after Lorien as well, leaving the impression that they really flaked out letting Frodo wander off alone, rather than it being the natural sloppiness after a month's break from threat. You lose your edge. But it wasn't apparent.<p>[ March 28, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[goldwine]

I have read your re-writes with interst guys...good ideas. I wonder how many real Tolkien fans PJ discussed his ideas with? It has been my experience that those who knew the books well were the most disappointed with the movie.What do you think?

[Kalimac]

I don't know, goldwine, I've been reading the books since the age of ten and really liked the movie (whatever its weak spots, it was just such a gigantic undertaking which could have gone so horribly wrong that I will give all honor and praise to Peter Jackson for coming as close to the mark as he did). <P>Maril, thanks for the kind words . And as far as I remember, no theater I've ever been in asks you to please turn off your stopwatches before the movie - just don't let it beep during the Council of Elrond or some such quietish moment . I'm trying to think of a way to stretch out the Lorien/post-Lorien scenes more; it's difficult because, when you get right down to it, they don't really *do* much, especially in Lorien. It's been mentioned before that Frodo sounded far too suspicious with his "What will I see?" line in Lorien; it hadn't struck me that way at the time and then I realized that it was because the movie went along so breathlessly at that point that it felt as if Frodo had been attacked in Moria, stabbed by the troll, run from the Balrog, seen Gandalf fall, been confronted by bow and arrow-wielding Elves and had his mind probed by Galadriel - all within the space of about twelve hours! At that point it seemed like a wonder that he wasn't prostrate on the ground begging for mercy.<P>There probably isn't too much to do with Lorien; as for the scenes where they're boating down the Anduin...I'd probably have to resort to a fairly cheap device and just intercut more night shots there to show that this journey is really taking quite a few days. Maybe before the Kings of the Argonath scene you could a brief, wordless night scene of about 30 seconds where everyone is asleep and Frodo is on watch by the shore; then we slowly see two "lamps of eyes" glowing brighter and brighter. Frodo draws Sting, and they fade away. Quiet rustling of leaves for a moment, cut and fade to everyone scrambling into boats the next morning with Frodo looking even more burdened than he already does. If you didn't mind repeating effects, you could do the same thing with the winged Nazgul later on (maybe make that an evening scene, with everyone having late supper together), or leave it out if it seems like repeating effects too much. Anyway, having one or both of these prospective scenes would establish two things: (1) this is taking several days and is tiring for everyone (obviously Frodo isn't the only one taking turns on watch) and (2) Heeee's back! ("He" being either Gollum or the Ringwraiths, or both). <P>Apologies for the verbosity. Do you think these would work at all?<p>[ March 28, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ]

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

I think there are ways to work more of Lorien in, though you do have a point, they don't "do" much there. The very reason so much of it was cut. Actually, all we need is Sam's comment, looking up at the moon, and saying waitaminute, we were in Lorien a month? That's what Tolkien did, to great effect. The theme of a thousand years passing in the outside world while someone passed an hour in fairyland is common enough to a) add to the Lorien mystique and b) make it clear they are really rested, and perhaps a bit soft. 10 bucks says the Director's Cut has exactly that scene you describe with Gollum slipping away.<P>I'm off to see the movie and start timing what we can cut! I haven't figured out how to keep my stopwatch from beeping, but I think since it's Easter I may be able to find an unpopulated section in the back (Easter's not a holiday for my religion though I am quite partial to easter baskets). I bought a stopwatch with a pretty quiet little beep fortunately, but yes, I wanted a "beep-free" setting. <P>Will get back to you later. I'm off!

[goldwine]

I feel much more kindly disposed to PJ after reading your commments! and have much more critical understanding of the movie process. I have also come to the conclusion that the bits where nothing much happend are my favourites! If the story had been one long succession of battles etc. I would have shelved it long ago. So that is where I differ from movie audiences I guess!<BR>Pity the movie footage is already done..PJ could have used your help!

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

I timed my way through the movie. How much was I able to cut for rewrites? Two minutes, 23 seconds! Ha! <P><UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Cut the entire scene of Farmer Maggot chasing the Hobbits. I'd use most of the time saved rewriting it.<BR><LI>Cut the Nazgul breaking down the gates of Bree. Over the top, it's not necessary.<BR><LI>Cut some of the cutaways to the Nazgul riding, between Bree and Weathertop. Take some of the stress off, make the getaway from Bree clean to leave us unsuspecting of the possible attack at Weathertop (and thus the fire lighting more likely).<BR><LI>Cut the scene (from the moment Arwen's blade shown) with "A ranger, cut off his guard?" Instead introduce Arwen with her appearance to Frodo.<BR><LI>Cut some of the gallop to Rivendell.<BR><LI>Cut some shots of Frodo's gasping face.<BR><LI>Cut Arwen's "Frodo, oh Frodo.." and started up again with Elrond speaking elvish.<BR><LI>I cut the portion showing Lurtz coming out of the pod. Irrelevant. Inaccurate. And they're scarier without showing how they're created.<BR><LI>Cut 90% of the Watcher in the Water (it grabs Frodo, Sam cuts off the tentacle - cut - everyone flees inside, tentacles come from everywhere and slam the door - cut part of falling rocks - starts again with Gandalf lighting his staff.) <BR><LI>By-the-way, to make Moria scarier I would have had silence and clattering stones only - no Howard Shore score - from the slamming of the door until the spotting of Gollum and then Frodo's conversation with Gandalf. Silence again until the hall of the Dwarrowdelf.<BR><LI>Cut some of the cave troll scene, bits and pieces, the entire portion with Aragorn getting tossed by it trying to save Frodo - adds nothing - and part of the hide and seek around the pillar. The scene's just too long and exhausting, we need to save more for the Balrog.<BR><LI>Cut several seconds of the goblins gathering around them in the great hall. They wait too long to attack, it's not clear why they would wait.<BR><LI>Cut several seconds from the broken stairway tipping. It's too slow, takes too much space in the story for what it is: a cool special effect.<BR><LI>After that I would cut nothing until after Lorien..<BR><LI>But I would not have Aragorn run through the water on the way to Lorien. This is where PJ shows he's not a hiker. I am. You get your boots wet, you're screwed, even with modern fabrics. No way.<BR><LI>Cut a few seconds here and there showing mean Uruk-hai growling at the camara. Two shots of that will do. Left in Saruman's speech to them.<BR><LI>After Lorien, I cut out all but one of the cutaways to the orcs running while the Fellowship rowed down the Anduin. Why not let the attack of the orcs be as much a surprise to us as it is to the Fellowship? I could be wrong, but I think releasing the tension slightly there will cause the audience to loosen up as much as the Fellowship, and make it believable Frodo would wander off.<BR><LI>Surprisingly, I find I wouldn't cut one iota of the final battle scene.<BR><LI>Cut several seconds showing Frodo standing at the boats with the ring in his hand, tears running down his face. But leave in the part with the voiceover with Gandalf.</UL><P>It all amounts to 2 minutes, 23 seconds. Sheesh.<P>[ March 31, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]<p>[ March 31, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[Midgardsormen]

Great thread!!<BR>I agree with most of the posts....still cringe at: "If you want him come and claim him"...did not mind Arwen being instead of Glorfindel, but I agree that Frodo should have crossed the Ford by himself and stood up to the Nazgul!! I also thought Gandalf spinning on the floor was a bit much but I can live with that....the scene I really do not like is Frodo and Galadriel....she should definitely NOT turn green and purple!! there are other ways of making her look powerful and even scary!!<BR>I do not really mind the closeups of Frodo as I really like his expressive face.<BR>Just a few comments to some of what others have written.<BR>I really like the idea of Frodo and Sam visiting Merry...but since Merry lives quite far away in the book I do not think that is the best solution. I think a better one would have been Gandalf telling Frodo (and Sam after pulling him through the window) to leave after dark...then Sam could send a message to Merry and Pippin to meet them at a certain point....of course this would mean that there would have to be some earlier scene of Gandalf and Frodo discussing the ring...otherwise how Sam know about the danger...maybe just Sam and Frodo deciding to take to the road for a while and then come across Merry and Pippin who go along with them because they are heading the same way....then we get the "get off the road" episode, and Merry and Pippin start to understand that something is definitely wrong. A few more lines about how friends should help eachother out would make it a bit more plausible. <BR>Rivendell....I did not really mind the arguing at the meeting as it was a quick way to show that Elves and Dwarves do not think much of eachother...I just love the dread growing on Frodo's face...it is just done so well.<BR>Anyway we can always hope!! The extended DVD is said to have more from the Shire, Rivendell, Moria and Lothlorien (the gift giving scene), so hopefully it will be a much better version for the fans. We might think it should have more of this or that but many I talked to who have not read the book thought that the first hour was a bit 'slow' (??), so maybe that was all PJ could get away with putting in in a version for cinemas!! What I think is so great about the DVD is that the extra 30 minutes will be integrated into the movie....I am sure to enjoy it!! (unfortunately that still does not get rid of Arwen at the ford!!..will just have to fast forward that part) <BR>One thing that has bugged me after several viewings is on Weathertop....I can live with Frodo dropping his sword...after all he has never used one and these five scary creatures are all out to get him!!! I think the way they portrayed the Nazgul after Frodo puts on the ring is cool too....and it does show that Frodo is strong enough to pull back his hand when the Witch King tries to take the ring....but then the Witch King stabs Frodo in the shoulder...why not the heart??? It would have been more believeable if he started to stab Frodo, who manages to deflect the knife just enough so that it goes into his shoulder and not his heart...I never took the Nazgul as being stupid??<BR>the other thing I agree with many posters about is the ring....I do not mind him looking at it on the way to bree....it is NOT on a chain there....actually it is not on a chain until he wakes up in Rivendell. But AFTER Rivendell, the ring seems to be able to get in and out of the chain at random?? Weird.<BR>ps. does anyone think that PJ will fix up the obvious mistakes in the DVD, ie. the Argonauths (sp?) arm??

[KingCarlton]

Whew ! That was some good reading, people!<BR>Almost as good as the books themselves.<BR>I have this to say in the defence of Mister Peter Jackson. <BR>The Exposure a movie gets is far greater than any book ever will. He has done a great job, keeping in mind that not everyone is a Tolkien follower and that it would be nice to get their money too.<BR>And if any of us had the means to make a great epic like this into a movie, wouldn't we love to put in two bits of our own into it.<P>Know Peace<BR>

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Hello, King Carlton, Lord of the Dream Kingdom, welcome to our dream, the Barrow-Downs. And our little re-write.<P>Glad you enjoyed it. We've been having a blast. <P>Don't misunderstand the intention of this thread, the "Second-guessing" is to mock our own efforts in plinking around with what I think will be, once all three parts are out, a masterpiece. I didn't say that btw until I saw the preview of TTT this weekend. <P>I think only one person in this thread didn't love the movie. The rest of us are tinkering the way a mechanic tinkers with a hotrod: out of sheer love, to bring out its full potential.. 'if we just change this - vroom... VrooOOOM... Yeah. Niiiiiiiice.' It's telling that I would only change two minutes and twenty-three seconds for one thing. <P>If you'd like, do please join in. I'm getting close - delayed by an influx of new ideas - to posting all the changes in order.<P>Yes, yes, I keep promising, but it's daunting and there are so many good ideas.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Midgard, thanks for your thoughtful post, and well-come and well met.<P>You know, when I first saw the scene at Weathertop, I did think that was a little odd, that slow precision. Also, Frodo's holding still for it. But after seeing the movie four or five times I think I got used to it and didn't notice anymore. I agree, Frodo should roll to escape and get stabbed in the arm up across to his shoulder. <P>And that change won't cost us any of our precious 2 minutes and twenty-three seconds to change. <P>-Maril

[Amarinth]

ai na vedui, maril! just got off from a 5-day vacation, and i couldn't wait to get on this thread!<P>i totally agree with your list of scenes to cut i am amazed by and salute your perseverence!<P>may i say --<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Cut several seconds of the goblins gathering around them in the great hall. They wait too long to attack, it's not clear why they would wait. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>yeah i agree... maybe maintain the running shot of the orcs moving in on the company, but not really getting to the point where they get them in a tight circle. maybe just as the chase gets close the company suddenly notices the orcs doing a double-take and a shriek and run tail-between-legs to hiding places...then they stop, notice and stand gaping at the horrific shadow and flame threatening at the other end of the dwarrowdelf.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Surprisingly, I find I wouldn't cut one iota of the final battle scene. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>me too! it's outstanding! for me, all the cgi in the movie are second only to that difficult and superlative zigzag shot running down the hills of amon hen.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Gandalf could interrupt the discussion when it started to break into an argument, reading the "one ring to rule them all" in the Mordor tongue, stunning them into silence. <BR>Elrond: "No one has ever spoken that tongue here before."<BR>Gandalf: "Nor will again, I hope. I do not ask pardon. This is the One Ring. There is only one course left to us: it must be destroyed."<BR>Silence...<BR>Frodo: "I will take the ring.<BR>Though I do not know the way."<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>i see, i see, the dramatic effect of those evil lines can take the place of the shock value of the argument...maybe you can throw in some reference to the dunadan's poem?<P>oh ok, i understand now that aragorn develops more clearly into his ultimate role as king the way he was recast. please tell me, do you know what happened to the reforging of narsil?<P>midgardsormen--now that you mentioned it, galadriel did go green and purple. how about is she just went brighter, larger and more beautiful, the scene sort of shot from the side view with galadriel looming over frodo?<P>kingcarlton-- your absolutely right! have no fear...i myself don't think anyone could have done a better job than pj. i was practically peeving everyone off in another, oscar thread about him not winning that oscar for direction. here, this is sort of just 'helping' pj, you know, post-mortem-like. hail pj!<P>---------------------------------------------<BR><I>every man's life is a path to the truth -- hesse</I>

[Kalimac]

Maril - $10 says you're on (and frankly, for me it would be worth losing ten dollars to see a Gollum scene like that on the DVD - sad, aren't I?). And wow, that was quite a job with your stopwatch. Can't think of a cut I disagreed with - though there have to be some closeups of Frodo, same as with the Ring - just not quite to the point that they took it. And Midgardsormen, I see your point about stopping at Merry's being kind of awkward - but a little tinkering with Shire geography (yes, I know it's sacrilege, but still ) could put Merry's house directly on their way to Bree, and in that situation it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to have them stop there. <P>I really like all these rewrites; the trouble is there's so much material it's impossible to comment on it. One thing I wanted to comment on was the Galadriel scene, since it seems to be a universal non-favorite (I don't know...it wasn't my favorite but it didn't really bother me that much either. Not sure why). Obviously a lot of the CGI can be cut, but I don't want to cut it down too much; it has to be a frightening scene because we need to get an impression that this is a truly powerful Elf who, if she chose, could be seriously contending with the likes of Saruman or Sauron - and since they've been so colorfully shown she needs to be too. My own preference would be to keep the voice that they used in the movie but make the graphics more the way they are when Arwen first appears to Frodo; just a simple white light. The contrast between the terrible voice and the Elf-light which we previously saw with Arwen would be jarring enough, IMHO. You'd be seeing the good, so to speak, but hearing what it could turn into.<P>Maybe that's still a little cheesy, but I'd rather overdo it than underdo it. Probably this is residual scarring from the Galadriel scene in Bakshi's LOTR, where that whole scene consists of Galadriel sort of twirling around once and chirping "I pass the test!" and all you can think is "WHAT test?" She looked about as threatening as Daphne from "Scooby Doo." It's better that the Elves seem frightening than feeble.

[KingCarlton]

I would be most happy to join in this excellent series of discussions. In my opinion a motion picture caters to a much wider variety of people and has to adjust the initial story accordingly.<BR>I have no problem with the beefed up role for Arwen....in the mind of the general audience, a beautiful leading lady is necessary. Though it is sad that Lotr does not have a prominent female cast of characters, it is welcoming to have what little of them is exceptionally visialised in the movies. <BR>There isn't a sequence That I would like changed other than the mugshots of frodo. I would have liked a little more on Gollum.<BR>Everything else was as good as a movie could get.<BR>The best sequences for me were - the war segment in the beginning, everything at the shire, the chase to to ford(Just the horses, excellent camera), the sweeping shots of pits on mordor, the treks on the snow, the way to Darrowdelf(but not the fighting) and of course the final battle in it's entirity.<P>What I am absolutly dissapointed by is the soundtrack. Every composition seems like it is from other movies. For instance, the segment on the sweep of the hell-like pits of mordor and all the way to the final battle, the musical piece called 'A Knife in the Dark' seemed lke a rip-off of the main theme of 'Conan The Barbarian' interspred with the 'O Fortuna' Chorus. And in too many places the music seem inappropriate.<P>Know Peace. <BR>

[Thinhyandoiel]

I must say I am quite impressed! I have been reading this thread for some time now, dwelling on all your ideas. And I have this to say:<BR>I agree with the whole Arwen deal. Though I did like her expanded role, there were portions (ie. What's this? A Ranger caught off his guard?) that could have been omitted. You were right. When I first saw it, I didn't notice. Too far caught up in the majesty of it all. But the six times after that I kept muttering to myself: "Frodo's DYING you dolts! Shut up!"<P>I don't think this has been mentioned yet, but when the Balrog first growls and all the Orcs go scattering. There is a BIG BIG pause with Gandalf and Company just standing around going 'what is it?' yadda yadda. Seven times I've seen this and each time I just want to scream at the screen RUN ALREADY! I mean, there is a saying "run now, explain later" isn't there? Why waste precious time just standing there in fear? Gandalf would probably stand a bit in shock, but he knew the thing was in Moria anyways, so I don't think he'd stand there as long as PJ made him.<P>Lorien, all I wanted to see more of was some interaction between the Elves and the company. Elves...meaning Haldir. In the book he is kind and even has a nice little conversation with Merry as they walk to Lothlorien. In the movie he seems so dowdy and moody. Almost all the Elves exhibit this, I thought. Aren't Elves supposed to be happy merry people? Also, Celeborn could've been given a little more dialogue, I think. Or, at least before they left, he could have given his warning about Fangorn. Not only would this give curiousity in the audience about the next movie, but it would definately satisfy me.<P>And yes! Definately less time spent on Frodo's worried face. Or him just holding out the ring to various people throughout. The ring is supposed to have that effect that he's overprotective of it, not willing to hand it out to just anyone. I mean, he wouldn't let Bilbo even see it, but in one scene before that he clearly just holds it out to Sam. Your line about a bird coming to snatch it up definately applies to a lot of scences. But alas, I must go! Bed time pour moi. I'll check up on the thread tomorrow.<p>[ April 02, 2002: Message edited by: Thinhyandoiel ]

[Amarinth]

hey guys, how about narsil? shouldn't they have inserted very short scenes of narsil taken, reforged and appearing in the hand of aragorn?<P>---------------------------------------------<BR><I>every man's life is a path to the truth -- hesse</I>

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Amar, you know, I think Narsil's reforging will be shown in the TT. Since Shelob is bumped to the RotK (as are, I believe, the Paths of the Dead) I think PJ has some time to kill in the Two Towers.. unlike the Fellowship where he had to lay quite a foundation, cover 3/4s of the distance to Mordor, and make it to the splitting of the Fellowship and the first climatic moment after Gandalf's fall. *gasp*gasp* just typing it has me winded.<P>Dream King, Gollum was a bit of a tease in the FotR I admit, but I'm willing to wait till the TT, especially with the bribe that we'll see a Lot of Gollum. I'm very curious about how he's going to do the next one, especially with the point made that here is where PJ deviates the most from the book. I'll gamble another ten bucks with Kalimac that the big fans of the books will scream over the changes, especially the additions, but in retrospect as a movie it will turn out to be the best of the three. But I digress.<P>Thin, re. the pause before they run from the Balrog, I have to admit I kinda like that. Gives (me) time to really take in the enormity of what's coming. Remember in the book Legolas dropped his bow in fear and cried out "A Balrog!" so it does suit. <P>But we can take a few seconds off (Timer moves up to 2 minutes, 25 seconds).<P>There are quite a few votes for more Lorien, and I'd be willing to spend some of my (almost) 2 and a half minutes on Lorien.<p>[ April 02, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[Midgardsormen]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Narsil does not get forged until RotK!!<BR>I am sure there will be some changes and quite a bit new stuff in TTT...cannot say how I will react because it really depends on what the changes are!! I am willing to give PJ some lisence...in the preview when Galadriel says: We can do nothing for Frodo, the Quest will claim his life!....I had shivers down my spine, even though I know that line does not exist in the book!! I do want the 'competition' between Legolas and Gimli, and I do NOT want Arwen and Eowyn meeting eachother...but I think we will just have to wait and see...

[Ereinion]

The only parts I were really terribly disappointed with were the Last Alliance scenes. The fighting was great, of course, especially the incredibly synchronised movements of the Elves. But the actual fall of Sauron was rather butchered. I was looking forward to seeing Gil-galad and Elendil battling Sauron on the slopes of Orudruin so much. Instead, we see one second of Gil-galad and not his death, and Elendil the Tall gets tossed into a wall like a leaf. Sauron gets nailed in his own stupidity in not staying aware. The only good thing about it was that it made Isildur seem a little more heroic then just walking up to a defeated Sauron and chopping off the ring. And what happened to Sauron's hand "that burned with fire" or something like that? I guess we do see a little of it, when it hits the ground. And PJ answered the question of Sauron's weaponry, giving him a mace instead of a sword as many of us thought in Books II. Other than making the Last Alliance scenes better, I have no qualms other than the changes you've suggested. Thanks for your input and keep up the discussions!

[KingCarlton]

What does everyone think about the casting of the characters...can I discuss this here or do we need a new topic...a new topic will be better, right...<P>Know Peace ! <BR>

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Dream King, you're quite right, I think casting questions will get lost in this thread.<P>Regarding the score, since the focus of this thread is suggesting changes, I'm not sure how to re-write the music here. Quarter notes and half notes don't seem to be among the available fonts. <P>*hums*<P>Well, what do you think of my re-write of the "heroic" theme on the way to Caradras?<P> Maril<p>[ April 05, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Thought I'd bring this to the top of the heap, see if anyone is interested...

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

I'm bringing this up to the top.<P>Guys, everyone who's seen the SE (okay, you can stop laughing, I know we've all seen it) - it's time to be smug.<P>Did we suggest changes to the Council of Elrond? Did we suggest Gandalf interrupt by reading 'one ring to rule them all' in the Mordor tongue? Why, yes, we did, didn't we?<P>Did we feel that the focus needed to be more on the Hobbits? That if anything, more peaceful moments needed to be spliced in, to balance out the action? Oh, indeed.<P>Did we insist on the gift-giving scene? Yes.<P>Did we say there needed to be more of the travel from Lorien to Rauros, to give us a feeling why the Fellowship relaxed their guard? Oh, yes.<P>Take a bow, everyone. Half our suggestions nailed what Peter Jackson added to his SE.<P>-Maril <p>[ November 22, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[mollecon]

Agree that Frodo should have taken the decision to leave the shire himself.. But in general, he does seem a bit too wimpy in the movie - which I like a lot btw.!

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

The original discussion from last year.

[Arwen Imladris]

Well, even if we second guesse PJ, others think that he is great!<P>Steven Spielberg is No. 1 on Premiere magazine's 2003 Power List of the 100 most influential people in Hollywood..."Lord of the Rings" director Peter Jackson (No. 20)<P><A HREF="http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/8/1050091114" TARGET=_blank>more</A>