decent of house of hurin

[laurens]

Would anyone know whether there is more to say on the descent of the house of stewards? two things are mentioned in Tolkiens texts: 1 that they were of high numenorean descent and 2, that they were originally of royal blood, though not descended from any of the kings of gondor (which implies they descended from one of the kings of numenor). this question has been bugging me in respect to the refusal of the stewards to allow any of the descendants of arnor to become new king (until aragorn of course), and a passage that I think remembering to have read about denethor II spending his days reding old texts. one might say he was doing his own genealogical research to be able to claim the throne.

[Boromir88]

one might say he was doing his own genealogical research to be able to claim the throne.

Denethor, nor any of the Stewards would ever be able to become "officially" King. Now, you may argue that Denethor in his latter days had a lot of power, and ruled as a King, but he would never have been able to officially claim the Kingship. And Denethor as we see knows this. Denethor loves power, he doesn't like those who aren't under his rule, but he understands that he can't be king. As we see in The Window on the West, Faramir tells Frodo...

'And this I remember Boromir as a boy, when we together learned the tale of our sires and the history of our city, that always it displeased him that his father was not king. "How many hundreds of years needs it to make a steward a king, if the king returns not?" he asked. "Few years, maybe, in other places of less royalty," my father answered. "In Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice."

The Stewards were theoretically unable to become King, because of a Declaration of a past steward.

After King Ondoher's death and the death of his sons, Gondor was left without a king. The Steward Pelendur ruled the city for a while, then Arvedui (one of the Dunedain) tried to claim the throne. He claimed to be Isildur's heir and that he wanted to reunite Gondor and Arnor. Pelendur and The Council denied his claim, saying Isildur gave up the throne of Gondor to the son of his brother, Meneldil. So, they declared only "Male heirs from the line of Anarion" can claim the throne. Then they found the successful General Earnil, who was a descendant of a past King, Telumehtar Umbardacil.

But, with Pelendur's declaration, this prohibited Stewards from officially becoming King, since they are not male heirs of Anarion. I say officially because as we see their power would grow and they would rule like a king, until a King returns in which they relinquish their power.

[laurens]

great, this helps me somewhat further. The only thing I m still trying to find out, apart from whether they have a claim on the throne or not, whether they are descendants of elros. Since the line of halfelves is rather thin throughout ME-history, it s difficult to find any relatives apart from the royal house(s).

[laurens]

I know faramir mentions his line is not descended from elendil, somewhere else it says that the house of hurin is ultimately of royal descent, so I take this to mean ther royal descent is to be loated in elros's line, before elendil, so a royal side-branch of the numenorean kings. haven t fund out which one(s) this could be. however, faramir stating all this, doesn t make it true of course. might just as well be a family myth.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by laurens

I know faramir mentions his line is not descended from elendil, somewhere else it says that the house of hurin is ultimately of royal descent, so I take this to mean ther royal descent is to be loated in elros's line, before elendil, so a royal side-branch of the numenorean kings. haven t fund out which one(s) this could be. however, faramir stating all this, doesn t make it true of course. might just as well be a family myth.

I think you might be confusing the quotes somewhat. The quote that I presume you to be referring to, in regards to Faramir is:

We of my house are not of the line of Elendil, though the blood of Numenor is in us.

The house of the Stewards is not of the LINE of Elendil, meaning that they cannot, as Aragorn could, or the Kings of Gondor could, trace their lineage back, father-to-father to Elendil.

I am familiar with the other quote that you are thinking of, the one about the House of Hurin having royal blood- but I am at a loss to find it myself.

In any case, I have always taken it to mean that the House of Hurin was not descended from a SON of the Royal House. If you think about it, the Kings of Gondor were around propagating their line for two thousand years. They should have had any number of children, and by the time of Pelendur, pretty much every noble in Gondor was probably related to the royal family in some respect. The question was simply whether or not anyone was in a direct line (ie. father to son) from one of the Kings.

Therefore, I would discount, personally, any suggestion that the House of Hurin had descent from Elros from a different party than Elendil. Certainly, if they did, they would not be "royalty" at any point in Gondor's history, since Gondor was ruled by the House of Elendil- the descendents of Elendil and no other descendents of Elros. Furthermore, Elendil's own lineage from Elros, while certainly uncontestable, would not have placed him anywhere near the front of the line for the Throne of Numenor, but somewhere in the back of those with Royal Blood.

[laurens]

thanks, Formendacil, for your exactness.

One thing I ‘ve read in respect to the royal houses of Numenor and Gondor is that they didn't make a habit out of having many children. Often they' d only have 1, and if they had two, most of the time, the second line sprouting from the second one will play an important role in history.

In any case, to summarise, the house of stewards would never be able to claim the throne - since not descendent of Elendil - they might be able to claim kinship with Elros (although we cannot as to now find out through whom), and Elros's descendents in general are rather scarce, though it's hard to make an estimate who s descended of him by the end of the 3rd age.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by laurens

I know faramir mentions his line is not descended from elendil, somewhere else it says that the house of hurin is ultimately of royal descent, so I take this to mean ther royal descent is to be loated in elros's line, before elendil, so a royal side-branch of the numenorean kings. haven t fund out which one(s) this could be. however, faramir stating all this, doesn t make it true of course. might just as well be a family myth.

This was from an earlier draft, which was removed from the published copy. With the declaration that any King/Queen of Numenor had to marry another descendant of Elros, the vast majority of Numenorean Lords dying in the Akallabeth, the low birthrate, the kin slaying, the wars with Sauron etc; I don't think there were many descendants of Elros let alone Elendil left.

I think also they were allowed to rule, precisely because they had no claim to the throne.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

I am familiar with the other quote that you are thinking of, the one about the House of Hurin having royal blood- but I am at a loss to find it myself.

I believe in chapter 7 of The People of Middle-earth it is said, "the Hurinionath were not in the direct line of descent from Elendil, they were ultimately of royal origin, and had in any case kept their blood more pure than most other families in the later ages".

[Faramir Jones]

There might have been other descendants of Elros who left Númenor before it perished, apart from Elendil and his immediate family. The candidates are those of the family of the Princes of Dol Amroth. According to endnote 39 in the story 'Cirion and Eorl' in Unfinished Tales, when the then Prince of Dol Amroth was mentioned, Tolkien says that the title was given to the Lords of Dol Amroth by Elendil

with whom they had kinship. They were a family of the Faithful who had sailed from Númenor before the Downfall and had settled in the land of Belfalas...with a stronghold upon the high promontory of Dol Amroth.

It's reasonable to say that this family were cousins of Elendil, and possible that they shared a common descent from Elros. It's interesting that even if this was the case, there was no suggestion that, when Gondor's throne was vacant, they should become kings. It appears that an eligible candidate for the throne had to be, first and foremost, a direct descendant of Elendil.

While there is no evidence given, it is possible that in the ships in which Elendil and his followers escaped the Downfall, there were also cousins of his. Perhaps one was Húrin’s ancestor, which is one explanation for the Stewards being ''ultimately of royal origin', though not directly descended from Elendil.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by laurens

thanks, Formendacil, for your exactness.

One thing I ‘ve read in respect to the royal houses of Numenor and Gondor is that they didn't make a habit out of having many children. Often they' d only have 1, and if they had two, most of the time, the second line sprouting from the second one will play an important role in history.

In any case, to summarise, the house of stewards would never be able to claim the throne - since not descendent of Elendil - they might be able to claim kinship with Elros (although we cannot as to now find out through whom), and Elros's descendents in general are rather scarce, though it's hard to make an estimate who s descended of him by the end of the 3rd age.

laurens, I'm afraid you're confusing me. I'm pretty sure your summary here is almost an exact opposite of what Formendacil actually said!

Unless you're summarising something else, of course.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

There might have been other descendants of Elros who left Númenor before it perished, apart from Elendil and his immediate family. The candidates are those of the family of the Princes of Dol Amroth. According to endnote 39 in the story 'Cirion and Eorl' in Unfinished Tales, when the then Prince of Dol Amroth was mentioned, Tolkien says that the title was given to the Lords of Dol Amroth by Elendil

with whom they had kinship. They were a family of the Faithful who had sailed from Númenor before the Downfall and had settled in the land of Belfalas...with a stronghold upon the high promontory of Dol Amroth.

It's reasonable to say that this family were cousins of Elendil, and possible that they shared a common descent from Elros. It's interesting that even if this was the case, there was no suggestion that, when Gondor's throne was vacant, they should become kings. It appears that an eligible candidate for the throne had to be, first and foremost, a direct descendant of Elendil.

Of course, the "kinship" here referenced could be the same by which Imrahil was Denethor's "kinsman": by marriage (Denethor's wife was Imrahil's sister).


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It's also worth noting that here as in so many places T couldn't make up his mind, or at least left contradictory accounts; in another version the first Prince of Dol Amroth was Galador, son of Imrazor and Mithrellas, born almost 2000 years after Elendil's time. (Note also the anachronism of the title "Prince of Dol Amroth" prior to that time, although it's an understandable later usage in the same way one sometimes sees Habsburgs prior to 1806 called "Austrian Emperors.")