Shelob

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1306</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Shelob came to her Lair before Sauron and before the first stone of Barad-dur. She was known to dig new tunnels around any roadblocks the local orcs would put up, but her Lair was in tunnels that were obviously carved by the hands of Men or Elves. Barad-dur was erected around S.A. 1600 and Minas Ithil around S.A. 3200 (I'm not sure of these dates). So what were these tunnels and who made them?

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[Suldaledhel]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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Re: Shelob

Maybe they werent carved by the hands of men or elves, if they were Then good for you Ron on getting it right!!! <img src=rolleyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes"> <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> Maybe, just maybe that they were there before anyone else, like the caves and tunnels Gandalf described when he was dragged down down down into the earth by the Balrog, tunnels that have been there for ages. Or not I dont know... Oh well that shall have to do for now. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

"See, half-brother! This is sharper than thy tounge. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks to be master of thralls." -Feanor to Fingolfin- -=I may be found merrymaking at either <a href=http://pub24.ezboard.com/bmountgundabad>Mount Gundabad</a> or at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/>The Barrow Downs</a>=-</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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Re: Shelob

There appear to be two possible answers: (1)the steps and tunnels were built by servants of Sauron; and (2) they were built by men of Gondor after the end of the Second Age. I favor the latter. The tower at the top of Cirith Ungol was built by Gondor to watch Mordor and the steps and tunnel would provide easy access from Ithilien.

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
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Re: Shelob

But with Shelob there, such construction would seem difficult.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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Re: Shelob

If constructed by Gondor at the beginning of the Third Age, maybe Shelob arrived later or was living elsewhere in the mountains and took up residency after the Gondorians vacated.

</p>

[galpsi]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Unquiet Dead
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Re: Shelob

Yet darker things unspoken and sooner.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 128</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Shelob

?????? Cryptic. Hi, Galpsi.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[HerenIstarion]

Maybe some ancient folk living here before Dark years, some relatives of those pukel - men or different breed.

[Turambar]

Just thought I'd revive this old thread and see if anyone has any comments.

[ March 27, 2002: Message edited by: Turambar ]

[ainur]

i guess I always thought that Shelob had her own tunnels and that the men of Gondor built the stairs and their tunnels themselves when they built Minas Ithil. Shelob then opened a passage into them, perhaps centuries later after the Minas Ithil became Minas Morgul. I can't verify any of it though. I know of no specific mention of her whenever Minas Morgul is discussed except from Gollum's plottings. It's possible the connections between the two sets of tunnels was not made until around the time of "The Hobbit" when Sauron was driven from Dol Guldur and returned to Mordor. But like I said, I can't verify it. Just speculating.

[Turambar]

Assuming that Minas Ithil was built in part as a wall around Mordor (to prevent orcs and other evil things from returning), it's possible that the Gondorians would build tunnels into Mordor (so that they could occasionally check up on Barad Dur and the return easily to the west). As the Wight points out, this must have been a tough job if Shelob was already there. But Shelob must have been eating something in all the centuries that Mordor was under the control of Gondor - maybe it was some poor men of Gondor.

[ March 27, 2002: Message edited by: Turambar ]

[Kuruharan]

Shelob arrived later or was living elsewhere in the mountains and took up residency after the Gondorians vacated.

If she had been living somewhere else in the mountains where would that be? I would assume (her being a reclusive spider and all) that she would have been living someplace that was almost as concealed as in the tunnels below Cirith Ungol, yet have access to adequate supplies of easily snared food. Is it possible that she was from some other place entirely and moved there at a relatively late date?

But Shelob must have been eating something in all the centuries that Mordor was under the control of Gondor - maybe it was some poor men of Gondor.

It does say that no soldier of Old Gondor had been able to set blade to her, so I think that this is likely to be true.

That would push the date on a late arrival theory until after Gondor's occupation, but before they left. Perhaps the fall of Sauron allowed her to move through Mordor without attracting anyone's notice?

(Nice pic, Turambar)

[Nice-Smeagol]

What about the Avari. The Elven race began East of Mordor, it would be natural for some of them to have wandered into Mordor (from the East) before Sauron and His servants came. They could have made the tunnels that Shelob inhabited and before the Men of Gondor added to them.

[Turambar]

Good point - it could have been the Avari.

[avarerniliel]

The Avari were always who I thought were responsible for the tunnels. But now I'm not so sure... [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

[VanimaEdhel]

Is it at all possible (now this is just a wild, out of the blue guess) that, although they appeared to be manmade caves, they were made by some underground water channel that dried out? A lot of channels and tunnels left by water look man-made, and since it is supposed to be from the fairly unworldly points of view of two hobbits and Gollum, it SEEMED to be manmade? Because if you look at Tolkien's writing style, with each scene, the writing style is much like it would be if one of the characters were telling the story, even though it is 3rd person narrative...so it could have been that the hobbits PERCEIVED that the caves were Man(or Elf)-made

Oh: then he does sort of have Shelob's point of view...but she probably would not know either...so maybe that was the case.