"Lord of the Rings and Philosophy" - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Frodo2968thewhite · 03-02-2004, 05:42 PM

I have recently finished reading Lord of the Rings and Philosophy, and I thought that it was very enlightening, and captured many of the aspects of LOTR. Though, it did partly miss many objectives. It had an excellent essay about good and evil in Tolkien's masterpieces. It said the following:

Quote:

....Another way to look at evil is to see it as essentially parasitical on goodness. On this view, goodness is necessary for evil, but evil is not necessary for goodness. Evil is like the darkness of a shadow: light is necessary for shadows to exist, but shadows are not necessary for light to exist. Goodness is primary and independent, whereas evil is secondary and dependent on goodness......

That is one of the many great passages in this book!

I'm curious, though; out of all the people who have read this, what are your thoughts about this book????

***Mister Underhill*** · 03-02-2004, 07:49 PM

You might be interested in this thread.

Frodo2968thewhite · 03-02-2004, 09:30 PM

Oh, thanks Mr. Underhill! I guess I didn't see that!

davem · 03-03-2004, 04:29 AM

Tolkien clearly does imply a correspondence between Light & Goodness, & Darkness & Evil, but also between Light & Language. Light has its source in Illuvatar. It is in the world from the begining, & the Valar use it to create the Lamps. When they are overthrown, they create the Trees, which are then slain, but the Light continues to shine in the Sun & Moon, & in the Silmarils. The Light is broken, 'splintered' as Flieger has it, but it continues to shine, always with lesser intensity, but always there. Language too, fragments, from the primal Eldarin, which reaches its height in Quenya, but only after it has broken from the tongue of Middle Earth, which appears in the course of the story b after we have met Quenya. Quenya is the Language of the Calaquendi - the speakers of Light. The Sindar are Moriquendi, & speak 'darkness' - at least in comparison to the High Elves. the Sindar cannot learn to speak Quenya - they cannot understand the concepts which the High Elves developed Quenya to express, not having had experience of the Light of the West. The Light deteriorates the further East one goes, & the further away in time one moves from the sourcce. So, in Numenor, Sindarin is replaced by Adunaic. Adunaic is succeeded by Westron, & Westron is corrupted by the Orcs into a language of abuse & foulness. Then, at the ultimate extreme, is the Black Speech. 'Black Speech' implies a language where Light is completely absent, & therefore in which even the concept of 'goodness' is absent. The Nazgul speak the Black speech, which, significantly perhaps, even Orcs don't adopt - a remnant of their Elvish ancestry, perhaps?

Light is originally 'One', as Language is also. Both Light & Language go through a series of fragmentations & falls, as does 'Good'. Glorfindel symbolises the 'single' Light, driving back the Nine fragments of Darkness. He 'speaks' Light to them, they reply with Darkness. Light/Goodness, from the 'begining' (Glorfindel has returned from the West, from Mandos, purified of the sin of his part in the Rebellion, & with the Light of Aman in his face) shines in the 'Darkness' . The Darkness is driven away, by his presence, & by Frodo's invocation of Elbereth, who kindled the Stars with the Light of Illuvatar, the Light of the Secret Fire (which Gandalf serves, & which will stop even the Balrog, which cannot pass it).

Whether Light brings about darkness is another question. If there was no Light there could be no Darkness. If some of the first Elves had not followed Orome into the West, then there would have been no Moriquendi - because they only become Moriquendi once the Calaquendi come into being. Yet, if all the Elves had gone into the West, all would have been Calaquendi, which implies, what? That Darkness chooses its existence, by refusing the Light? So, Evil 'choooses' to exist, by an active rejection of the Good. (Which, of course, is not going to work as a theory, because if Evil//darkness can be 'chosen' it must be a thing, in & of itself. So, Darkness & Evil are not things which are chosen, in & of & for themselves. It is, rather, that people refuse the Light, the Good. The Moriquendi do not choose to be Moriquendi, unlike the Calaquendi. The Moriquendi end up as Moriquendi simply by chooosing not to become Calaquendi. So, 'evil' people are/do evil because they haven't made an active choice to be//do Good. Good is a 'positive' act/choice. Evil is the decision not to make that choice. We are 'fallen', hence in darkness, & we must, therefore, make a positive choice of the Light, the Good. There is, therefore, an inherent 'momentum' towards Darkness & evil, always pulling us in that direction, because that is the place/state from which we began - so going 'back to nature' (including our 'natural' human nature)is not an option. What is 'natural' is not 'Good', it is a state from which we must raise ourselves, which we must move away from).

In Middle Earth there seems to bee this 'gravitational' pull, away from Light & Goodness towards Darkness & Evil, symbolised by the movement from Quenya to the Black Speech.

The Elves are driven forward in time, against their will, away from the Light & perfect 'Goodness' of the past. For them, time is an enemy. Going back is their dream - & its significant that the speak of going back to Valinor, being 'borne back across the Sundering Seas'. Yet this desire to return to an idealised past is what Feanor plays on with his reference to Cuivienen to inspire the Noldor to rebellion. The Elves have memory, & in the end that is all they will have, memory of a place they cannot return to, & hence of a Light & Goodness to which they cannot return, but they cannot go forward. Only the truly blessed Elves - Luthien, Arwen, are liberated from memory & time, & able to pass beyond the Circles of the World. Ultimately, it is the Elves who must seek Light & Goodness within the World. Men can seek it beyond the World. Elves must seek for it in the Past, Men must seek it in the future, so, Death is Illuvatar's gift to Men. Which means that the Elves have only memory of Light & Goodness, which they must hold onto, against the coming of the Great End, while Men have hope
of those things. Men suffer in Hope, Elves suffer.

Anybody still here

davem · 03-04-2004, 03:24 AM

Addendum: Hope

When I said 'Men suffer in Hope. Elves suffer'. I was talking about Amdir , as opposed to Estel . In the Athrabeth Finrod distinguishes the two kinds of 'hope'. Amdir ('looking up') seems to be 'optimism', or belief that the world can be made better. Elves seem to lack this, especially the Elves of the Third Age - Elrond speaks of having lived three ages in the world, & having seen 'many defeats & many fruitless victories'. Galadriel speaks of 'fighting the Long Defeat'.There seems to be no feeling that the world can ever be made better, & that, on the contrary, it can only get worse, therefore the best one can do is delay the inevitable decline into evil & Darkness.

Estel, on the other hand, is faith in Illuvatar, that, as Illuvatar is 'Good', then he will, in the end, bring 'Good' out of the evil & suffering, but this 'Good' will not come about 'in' the world of time. (Julian of Norwich: 'For Sin is behovely, but Alll shall be Well, & All shall be Well, & All manner of thing shall be Well'). This position does not seem to involve any specific sense or vision of the form this ultimate 'Good' will take. It is just faith that Illuvatar cannot but bring about the victory of 'the Good'.

Elves have Estel, but not Amdir.

Men clearly posess both, generally speaking - though one wonders if Tolkien was capable of Amdir - Men struggle to make the world a better place, against the odds often, while the Elves struggle on without Amdir, in hopes merely of preventing it becoming worse for as long as they can. This is slightly odd, in that the race which leaves the world has more hope for, & faith in, its future, than the race which is bound to it forever.

Which, I suppose, begs the question, is Amdir as important as Estel, & is the Elves lack of a capacity for Amdir the real cause of their tragedy?

symestreem · 05-11-2004, 02:13 PM

That was an excellent pair of posts, davem. I think I'm just going to call you "Mr. Philosopher, Sir" from now on.

Quote:

Goodness is necessary for evil, but evil is not necessary for goodness.

This is correct, in my opinion, but I would like to add something. Evil is necessary for goodness to be known as goodness. It serves as a 'standard of comparison', so to speak, or a control in an experiment. If you have only light, you do not know what anything else can be (unless someone tells you...), but if you have shadows and light, then you clearly see the difference. So if you have only light, you will not realize what darkness is. Can this cause a heightened vulnerability to darkness? Ie, if you know your enemy you will be better prepared against it?

Quote:

Which, I suppose, begs the question, is Amdir as important as Estel, & is the Elves lack of a capacity for Amdir the real cause of their tragedy?

(davem)

Isn't Estel a form of Amdir?

davem · 05-12-2004, 02:31 AM

Thanks, but I don't know that I deserve it - I don't think I do, really.

I suppose Estel & Amdir are related, but Estel is trust in things beyond the world, a belief that even if things in this world never progress beyond 'fighting the Long Defeat', there is hope beyond the circles of the World. Amdir is belief that things can be made better in this world, but that does not necesarily deny Estel. It merely requires the holder to be 'optimistic'. Estel, on the other hand, can be held to by the most pessimistic person - pessimistic in terms of the world, that is.

I wouldn't say Estel is a form of Amdir, though, as Estel is the more 'spiritual' of the two, & doesn't depend on Amdir. I don't know that Amdir depends on estel either - the two are not mutually exclusive though, & one could hold to both - Men seem to, generally speaking. Elves seem to lean more & more towards Estel pure & simple - maybe that's down to their long experience of life in Arda. It is odd that the longer one dwells in Arda the more ones hope & trust lies in something beyond it. Its a profound contradiction, & maybe has something to teach us - immortal life in this world will lead only to lack of amdir, & only estel would, in the end, be enough to make that immortality bearable.

Amdir fluctuates, is transitory, & depends on circumstances, whereas Estel, being founded in eternity or 'Truth', is constant. I think that's Tolkien's reason for distinguishing them, & the point of the Athrabeth itself in many ways.

03-02-2004, 09:30 PM	#3
Frodo2968thewhite Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Shire Posts: 95	Oh, thanks Mr. Underhill! I guess I didn't see that! __________________ INAGURAL GOLDEN RING MARATHON, OCTOBER 20, 2005!!! FRODO LIVES!!!!

05-12-2004, 02:31 AM	#7
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,256	Thanks, but I don't know that I deserve it - I don't think I do, really. I suppose Estel & Amdir are related, but Estel is trust in things beyond the world, a belief that even if things in this world never progress beyond 'fighting the Long Defeat', there is hope beyond the circles of the World. Amdir is belief that things can be made better in this world, but that does not necesarily deny Estel. It merely requires the holder to be 'optimistic'. Estel, on the other hand, can be held to by the most pessimistic person - pessimistic in terms of the world, that is. I wouldn't say Estel is a form of Amdir, though, as Estel is the more 'spiritual' of the two, & doesn't depend on Amdir. I don't know that Amdir depends on estel either - the two are not mutually exclusive though, & one could hold to both - Men seem to, generally speaking. Elves seem to lean more & more towards Estel pure & simple - maybe that's down to their long experience of life in Arda. It is odd that the longer one dwells in Arda the more ones hope & trust lies in something beyond it. Its a profound contradiction, & maybe has something to teach us - immortal life in this world will lead only to lack of amdir, & only estel would, in the end, be enough to make that immortality bearable. Amdir fluctuates, is transitory, & depends on circumstances, whereas Estel, being founded in eternity or 'Truth', is constant. I think that's Tolkien's reason for distinguishing them, & the point of the Athrabeth itself in many ways. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

03-02-2004, 07:49 PM	#2
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,752	You might be interested in this thread.

03-03-2004, 04:29 AM	#4
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,256	Tolkien clearly does imply a correspondence between Light & Goodness, & Darkness & Evil, but also between Light & Language. Light has its source in Illuvatar. It is in the world from the begining, & the Valar use it to create the Lamps. When they are overthrown, they create the Trees, which are then slain, but the Light continues to shine in the Sun & Moon, & in the Silmarils. The Light is broken, 'splintered' as Flieger has it, but it continues to shine, always with lesser intensity, but always there. Language too, fragments, from the primal Eldarin, which reaches its height in Quenya, but only after it has broken from the tongue of Middle Earth, which appears in the course of the story b after we have met Quenya. Quenya is the Language of the Calaquendi - the speakers of Light. The Sindar are Moriquendi, & speak 'darkness' - at least in comparison to the High Elves. the Sindar cannot learn to speak Quenya - they cannot understand the concepts which the High Elves developed Quenya to express, not having had experience of the Light of the West. The Light deteriorates the further East one goes, & the further away in time one moves from the sourcce. So, in Numenor, Sindarin is replaced by Adunaic. Adunaic is succeeded by Westron, & Westron is corrupted by the Orcs into a language of abuse & foulness. Then, at the ultimate extreme, is the Black Speech. 'Black Speech' implies a language where Light is completely absent, & therefore in which even the concept of 'goodness' is absent. The Nazgul speak the Black speech, which, significantly perhaps, even Orcs don't adopt - a remnant of their Elvish ancestry, perhaps? Light is originally 'One', as Language is also. Both Light & Language go through a series of fragmentations & falls, as does 'Good'. Glorfindel symbolises the 'single' Light, driving back the Nine fragments of Darkness. He 'speaks' Light to them, they reply with Darkness. Light/Goodness, from the 'begining' (Glorfindel has returned from the West, from Mandos, purified of the sin of his part in the Rebellion, & with the Light of Aman in his face) shines in the 'Darkness' . The Darkness is driven away, by his presence, & by Frodo's invocation of Elbereth, who kindled the Stars with the Light of Illuvatar, the Light of the Secret Fire (which Gandalf serves, & which will stop even the Balrog, which cannot pass it). Whether Light brings about darkness is another question. If there was no Light there could be no Darkness. If some of the first Elves had not followed Orome into the West, then there would have been no Moriquendi - because they only become Moriquendi once the Calaquendi come into being. Yet, if all the Elves had gone into the West, all would have been Calaquendi, which implies, what? That Darkness chooses its existence, by refusing the Light? So, Evil 'choooses' to exist, by an active rejection of the Good. (Which, of course, is not going to work as a theory, because if Evil//darkness can be 'chosen' it must be a thing, in & of itself. So, Darkness & Evil are not things which are chosen, in & of & for themselves. It is, rather, that people refuse the Light, the Good. The Moriquendi do not choose to be Moriquendi, unlike the Calaquendi. The Moriquendi end up as Moriquendi simply by chooosing not to become Calaquendi. So, 'evil' people are/do evil because they haven't made an active choice to be//do Good. Good is a 'positive' act/choice. Evil is the decision not to make that choice. We are 'fallen', hence in darkness, & we must, therefore, make a positive choice of the Light, the Good. There is, therefore, an inherent 'momentum' towards Darkness & evil, always pulling us in that direction, because that is the place/state from which we began - so going 'back to nature' (including our 'natural' human nature)is not an option. What is 'natural' is not 'Good', it is a state from which we must raise ourselves, which we must move away from). In Middle Earth there seems to bee this 'gravitational' pull, away from Light & Goodness towards Darkness & Evil, symbolised by the movement from Quenya to the Black Speech. The Elves are driven forward in time, against their will, away from the Light & perfect 'Goodness' of the past. For them, time is an enemy. Going back is their dream - & its significant that the speak of going back to Valinor, being 'borne back across the Sundering Seas'. Yet this desire to return to an idealised past is what Feanor plays on with his reference to Cuivienen to inspire the Noldor to rebellion. The Elves have memory, & in the end that is all they will have, memory of a place they cannot return to, & hence of a Light & Goodness to which they cannot return, but they cannot go forward. Only the truly blessed Elves - Luthien, Arwen, are liberated from memory & time, & able to pass beyond the Circles of the World. Ultimately, it is the Elves who must seek Light & Goodness within the World. Men can seek it beyond the World. Elves must seek for it in the Past, Men must seek it in the future, so, Death is Illuvatar's gift to Men. Which means that the Elves have only memory of Light & Goodness, which they must hold onto, against the coming of the Great End, while Men have hope of those things. Men suffer in Hope, Elves suffer. Anybody still here

03-04-2004, 03:24 AM	#5
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,256	Addendum: Hope When I said 'Men suffer in Hope. Elves suffer'. I was talking about Amdir , as opposed to Estel . In the Athrabeth Finrod distinguishes the two kinds of 'hope'. Amdir ('looking up') seems to be 'optimism', or belief that the world can be made better. Elves seem to lack this, especially the Elves of the Third Age - Elrond speaks of having lived three ages in the world, & having seen 'many defeats & many fruitless victories'. Galadriel speaks of 'fighting the Long Defeat'.There seems to be no feeling that the world can ever be made better, & that, on the contrary, it can only get worse, therefore the best one can do is delay the inevitable decline into evil & Darkness. Estel, on the other hand, is faith in Illuvatar, that, as Illuvatar is 'Good', then he will, in the end, bring 'Good' out of the evil & suffering, but this 'Good' will not come about 'in' the world of time. (Julian of Norwich: 'For Sin is behovely, but Alll shall be Well, & All shall be Well, & All manner of thing shall be Well'). This position does not seem to involve any specific sense or vision of the form this ultimate 'Good' will take. It is just faith that Illuvatar cannot but bring about the victory of 'the Good'. Elves have Estel, but not Amdir. Men clearly posess both, generally speaking - though one wonders if Tolkien was capable of Amdir - Men struggle to make the world a better place, against the odds often, while the Elves struggle on without Amdir, in hopes merely of preventing it becoming worse for as long as they can. This is slightly odd, in that the race which leaves the world has more hope for, & faith in, its future, than the race which is bound to it forever. Which, I suppose, begs the question, is Amdir as important as Estel, & is the Elves lack of a capacity for Amdir the real cause of their tragedy?