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Old 09-20-2015, 08:16 AM   #1
Aaron
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The Eye Were Dragons inherently "evil"?

Hi! Old user here, returning after rekindling my love for Tolkien

Reading The Hobbit, I was always struck by just how sorry I felt for Smaug. He was a beautiful, elegant creature, but all alone with nothing but gold for company. And even if he wanted to eat Bilbo, it almost seemed as if he enjoyed their little banter. I was very sorry when he died.

Given that Smaug was clearly not a simple beast, such as a horse or dog, and capable of rational thought, sarcasm and cruelty - do you think he, and other Dragons, could be "good" if they desired it? Did Dragons in Middle Earth have the option of being moral or immoral, or were they all uniformly evil due to their nature?
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Old 09-20-2015, 09:06 AM   #2
Faramir Jones
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White-Hand Sorry for Smaug?

Welcome back, Aaron!

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you about Smaug. He invaded two countries, killed or drove away their inhabitants, and destroyed or took most of their property. I certainly don't feel sorry for him; because he didn't express any sorrow or remorse for his actions, yet alone attempt to compensate the relevant people, or at least their descendants.

Even if we ignore that, his response at finding out that Bilbo and the dwarves were assisted by the Lake-men was to attack and begin to destroy the town. Not only was it a vast overreaction; it also led to his death.

If he had just flown around, set fire to a few empty but visible places, and sent a threatening message that any future assistance to his enemies, such as dwarves, would be an 'unfriendly act', that strategy might have worked.

There is the seperate question of whether Smaug or any other dragon had the free will to chose good or evil, which is an interesting one. My own answer is 'Not enough information to give a definite answer'. We don't see any dragon in Tolkien's works discussing such a possibility of free will with anyone or even with themselves, and if they themselves were free to make such a choice.

I remember a newspaper cartoon which I've been trying to locate, which had a dragon at a podium addressing a seated group of knights, saying that though they had their differences, the fact that they could be in the same place together without using violence was a step in the right direction.
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Old 09-20-2015, 10:03 AM   #3
Zigûr
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Ooh interesting topic.

Nothing in Arda is "inherently" evil, is it? Even the Dragons must have been bred from serpents and lizards which were (sub-)created by Yavanna et al, one assumes... although I suppose that is an assumption.

Yet they were bred as living weapons, to lead the assaults of Morgoth's armies, and were deeply imbued with his power. I wonder if their love of precious things derived from Morgoth's own weakness for lustrous artefacts.

To me it seems that Dragons were perhaps not "inherently" evil insofar as anything in Arda is, but that they were deeply evil, perhaps in a way beyond Orcs and the like. I think this may be observed in their cruelty and remorselessness.

There's evidently a kind of magnificence or grandiosity about Dragons in Middle-earth, however, which might evoke the "relics" of goodness that could be found in even the most evil things.
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Old 09-20-2015, 12:03 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Zigûr View Post
Yet they were bred as living weapons, to lead the assaults of Morgoth's armies, and were deeply imbued with his power. I wonder if their love of precious things derived from Morgoth's own weakness for lustrous artefacts.
Glaurung was said to be filled with Morgoth's spirit, and Morgoth was the nearest to true evil in the world.
Yet, as has been noted nothing in Arda was evil from the start. However, if by inherent you mean an evil they were from birth primed to pursue, I think the answer is yes. I do not see any other possible path for a dragon but badness. But without Morgoth, it was "evil" in lower case; not serving a prime Evil personified, but a lesser, wicked sense of personal cruelty and greed.
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Old 09-20-2015, 01:09 PM   #5
Pervinca Took
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Thorin described him as 'a most specially greedy, strong and wicked worm.' Whilst he's hardly an impartial judge, it would seem some were worse than others.

Chrysophylax was a flawed but slightly more moderate beast, if memory serves me correctly.
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Old 09-20-2015, 02:55 PM   #6
Galadriel55
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Very interesting topic!

I agree with what has been said. Smaug's conversation with Bilbo hints that he is a dragon capable of philosophical discussion and intrigue. He's a clever beast, but it doesn't make him good. He does not use it to ponder about the world, he uses it to destroy that which is not in his immediate possession.

However, I also agree that there is not enough information on dragons out there to prove or disprove free will and a chance of goodness in dragons.
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