Nenya, Galadriel and their power and their part on the assault vs Dol Guldur

[Iarhen]

The power of the 3 elven rings are supposed to be "conservation" powers... warding off the efects of time and keeping everything unsullied and beautiful.

Both Nenya and Vilya were on the hands of "chiefs of state", Galadriel and Elrond.

We all know that the power of the 3 rings is not for war, because they are not designed for it.

BUT when the question of how did the elven realms of Lothlorien and Imladris stand in such rough times as those of the Third Age, the immediate answer is, putting aside the Lorien army and the Noldorin that dwelled in Rivendell, the protection that Galadriel and Elrond had over both places.

Focusing on the Lorien theme, we know that Lorien is assaulted 3 times by Dol Guldur. And it is listed that the orc armies were repelled by a power that dwelled in Lorien (putting aside the courage and valour of the Lorien elves) and that only Sauron himself would be able to penetrate the Woods, and only in person (i.e. not from a dsitance).

Then my question comes to mind. Galadriel used Nenya to protect Lorien from all types of defects. Evil, including the terrible Witch King (according to the UT) feared to come near Lorien because of the power that protected the forest. And according to the UT, it was the power of Galadriel and the White Ring (cited in the UT as the principal of the 3).

So, my theory is taht Nenya DID serve for war purposes. Protective or defensive war, but war after all.

Then, a question about a topic related to the White Council assailing Dol Guldur (when Sauron pretended to flee from his enemies) an affirmation comes to mind in reference to a White Council vs Dol Guldur thread (Battles of the late Third age).

I do think that it is possible that when Saruman, Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel agreed to attack the Mirkwood fortress, they "borrowed" or enhanced the protective "girdle" that Galadriel had over Lorien to expand it towards Dol Guldur in order to help kick Sauron out of it.

What do you think?

[Iarhen]

BTW, another thing...

Tolkien speaks of White as a commanding color. I.e. Saruman the White was the chief wizard of the Istari. The White Council was the chief council concerning securty matters of M.E. in the 3rd Age. Gandalf the White comes to lead men and elves in the last part of the War of the Ring.

So... if Nenya IS the White Ring, then how come we dont put as a "arguable" point the affirmation that Vilya is the mightiest of the 3...

Tolkien may say so in LOTR. But in the UT, he says that Nenya is the principal of the 3 and he reffers to it by calling it "the principal of the 3".

What do you think?

[Socialist]

Vilya is the most powerful ring. But, Nenya is the principle ring.

[Eruwen]

So, my theory is that Nenya DID serve for war purposes. Protective or defensive war, but war after all.

Technically though, they are not using it for war. They weren't actually at war fighting were they? So really, they are just using it for protection as they always have. I wouldn't consider it war, just a defense mechanism.

Though your discriptions of war would be contradicting my opnion, I don't think that power of the 3 was talking about that type of war. I think it was mainly talking about how they wouldn't use it to harm people and help them win a physical war. I'm sure they would be used for defense purposes.

I do think that it is possible that when Saruman, Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel agreed to attack the Mirkwood fortress, they "borrowed" or enhanced the protective "girdle" that Galadriel had over Lorien to expand it towards Dol Guldur in order to help kick Sauron out of it.

This could very much be true as well, but again it was just a "protective girdle". I think that it was the people themselves who kicked Sauron out. The rings themselves just served as a way to keep Sauron from moving into the protected area.

I'm also not sure if I'm making a bit of sense here, but it sounds right in my head. So this is just my opinion on the matter. I agree with Socialist on the other question.

[Willow]

I think that it's hard to speculate unless we know more about what the rings actually DO. Narya (the Great) is the ring of fire; Nenya is the ring of adamant; Vilya was the ring of... air? We could speculate that fire would be most easily used against a foe in an offensive action; adamant is the most useful for standing firm against an enemy, as Galadriel did; air is most useful for... what? Anyway, it's all speculation.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Nenya is the Ring of Water; its stone is Adamant. Just a clarification...

I remember reading something(I don't know where from) that in Rivendell the stars are clearest, because Elrond wields Vilya. I think that is one of Vilya's properties. There may be more, but I'm open to more comments.

[Legolas]

So... if Nenya IS the White Ring, then how come we dont put as a "arguable" point the affirmation that Vilya is the mightiest of the 3...

Tolkien saying so doesn't leave much room for other options with him being the creator and all. Not everything white was automatically better than anything of another colour. It's not much of an argument to say Nenya was mightier than Vilya because Tolkien chose it to be the white ring since explicitly stated which was mightier/st.

When you say the Rings weren't used for "war," I think you're being too general. Does it ever say that the Rings weren't used for war? If it does, it means they would not be used for taking the offense and attacking - not that they couldn't be used for any purpose relating to war.

Aha, I found it. The Rings were not "weapons of war." Elrond's word at the Council:

They are not idle. But they were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained. These things the Elves of Middle-earth have in some measure gained, though with sorrow.

Defending Lorien definitely falls under the purposes he lists while not being a weapon of war. Even so, he says they were not "made as weapons of war," but I imagine there might be instances in which one of the Rings could be useful in a battle (even if not as a "weapon"), and, in dire need and with much reservation, might be used.

[ September 25, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Finwe]

Anything can be used as a weapon of war, from a sword, right down to a toothbrush. It doesn't matter what you use, but how you use it. Galadriel merely utilized one of the properties of Nenya, which was extremely useful at that point of time. She also learned a lot from Melian, during her stay in Doriath in the First Age, so that is another reason why her Girdle seemed so strontg. She learned from the "original Girdle-Maker," which enhanced her power. Also, Galadriel was one of the oldest Elves left in Middle-earth, and one of the most powerful, since she had been born in Aman, and had seen the Light of the Two Trees. That gave her added power.

[Legolas]

Right, but the point was that the purpose was related to war, but it certainly was not used as a weapon presnting no contradiction (Iarhen initially presented this as a contradiction in the Ring's prupose/ability and the Ring's use).

[Rumil]

On the one hand, Galadriel could perhaps have used her ring in a 'defensive' manner. The star-glass certainly repelled evil beings such as Shelob, wouldn't her elven ring, being far more powerful, have a proportionately greater effect on Sauron's servants? Perhaps it would have protected the elvish forces invading Dol Guldur (if that really happened!!) by negating the morale-lowering effects of the Nazgul etc.

On the other hand, Gandalf possesses an elven ring too but it seems to have no effect on the goblins in the hobbit, the wolves in Eregion or the orcs in Moria. Perhaps he was wary of deploying its full power (being under orders from the Valar to avoid open displays of power after all).

[Finwe]

The reason that Gandalf's Ring did not seem to repel the forces of evil was that, that wasn't its purpose. Narya and Nenya were made for two different reasons. The reason that Cirdan gave Narya to Gandalf to begin with was to help him in his labors, to kindle hope in the hearts of the Free Peoples. To kindle anything, you need fire, or a flame of some sort, and Narya was the Rign of Fire. It served Gandalf's purpose.

Nenya was made for Galadriel, and it served to strengthen her defenses. Her duty was not to kindle hope in the hearts of the Free Peoples, it was to rule Lothlorien and help keep the forces of Mordor at bay. In that, she most definitely fulfilled her duty.

[Iarhen]

I agree totally with what Finwe says.

And it is from his idea that my question arises. Since Nenya was used for defensive purposes, among others, lets consider the posibility that the protective "girdle" that Galadriel wove around Lothlorien could be expanded towards Dol Guldur when the White Council attacked.

If Galadriel's girdle was used for repelling all kinds of evil (i.e. the orcs, the Nazgul, etc) imagine the scenario were Galadriel's power was strenghtened with the aid of the other known members of the Council (Gandalf, Saruman, Elrond)to expand the girdle towards the south region of Mirkwood, in order to kick out the Necromancer and his allies. I know its a big maybe, but its a possibility.

Otherwise, would the White Council risk open war against Dol Guldur? And by that I mean sending troops against the fortress (elves from Lorien, Rivendell and Thranduil's realm... can't think of another force being sent there) when they know that Sauron lurks in the fortress and that his sorcery and his orcs (and other fell creatures) are all around it? Wouldn't you attack Dol Guldur, first, from a distance (Galadriel's magic, fueled by the others, from Caras Galadhon) to undo Sauron's craft protecting his fortress, and then send elves to kick out whatever creatures remained behind?

I think it would be a possibility...

[Elladan and Elrohir]

In any case, the assault on Dol Guldur wasn't much of an assault. Sauron had already left and arrived in secret in Mordor a couple of years earlier. There is no record of there even being a battle at Dol Guldur when the White Council attacked. Sauron had long planned his return to Mordor.

I think we'll agree that without Sauron there, it's pretty easy for Gandalf, Saruman, Galadriel, Elrond, etc. to take the fortress, with or without Elven-rings.

[Finwe]

Even if Sauron had left a year or two ago, the White Council would have still wanted to get rid of the Orcs and other Minions still left there. Even without a leader, they would still harass travelers, just for the fun of it, and that had to be stopped.

[Iarhen]

Besides, it is said that the forest was cleansed and made wholesome again, for a while...

That means some kind of regenerating power was at work in Mirkwood... and I know of a woman that specializes in making forests more beautiful and free of evil that lives next to Mirkwood... and her name starts with a G... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Halbarad]

I remember reading somewhere that Galadriel was responsible for tearing the walls of Dol Guldur down. Where is this written, because I can't find it. If someone can clarify this, then would it serve as an additional point of discussion?

[Elladan and Elrohir]

The forest was not actually cleansed at all. Several Nazgul were sent to reinhabit Dol Guldur and command growing evil within it once again, and it was a major stronghold of Sauron in the War of the Ring -- second only to Barad-dur (and perhaps Minas Morgul).

Galadriel only threw down its walls after the destruction of the Ring (and Sauron). And since the destruction of the One Ring meant the end of the time of the Three Rings, she did it without Nenya.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Whoa! She's pretty powerful. I used to think only Ainur like Gandalf(destroying the Bridge of Khazzad-dum) and half-Ainur like Luthien(come to think of it, she's the only half-Ainu in Ea!) could bring physical structures down at their command.

Look at Finrod. He could have brought the wall down on the werewolf, but instead, he chose to bear his powers on the bond. That event, followed by Luthien's single-handed assault on Tol-in-Gaurhoth made me think that Elves can't bring down walls with their words. Now I see; they could, too.

[ September 29, 2003: Message edited by: Nilpaurion Felagund ]

[ September 29, 2003: Message edited by: Nilpaurion Felagund ]

Don't forget that somewhere in the Silmarillion or UT it is stated that either she or Feanor is the mightiest Noldor (possibly even Elf - don't remember the quote). She IS indeed very powerful [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Halbarad]

Given that the Noldor are the mightiest race of Elves, that would make her in the top 2 of all elves...

Also, where would Celebrimbor be ranked if he crafted 3 very powerful rings, a mighty accomplishment, if not quite in the same league as Feanor and the Silmarils?

[Iarhen]

After Lúthien, mightiest and fairest of all the Children of Illuvatar, Feanor and Galadriel are tied in the runner up spot...

Without Luthien, Galadriel is stated to be the mightiest of the eldar (U.T.). And Feanor has a lot more statements in favour of his power. But Galadriel is as powerful and mighty as he, but wiser than him.

Ive always considered that in terms of crafts and creations, the Noldor are the greatest ones. But the Vanyar are the ones closest to the Valar, the Elves of Light, and their art is without comparison.

But, personally, Id preffer to be a hot blooded Noldor than a Vanyar... Im going out of the topic...


But it is in ROTK, in one of the appendixes, were it is said that Galadriel threw down the walls and laid bare the pits of Dol Guldur...

If her brother was able to face a match against Sauron a couple milennia ago, then my guess is that after so many years of experience, Galadriel would have grown to be far more powerful than her fallen brethren...

[Iarhen]

But Celebrimbor is NOT as skilled as Feanor was. Even though the rings of power were a great accomplishment, the Silmarils are the greatest creation ever to be made by the Children of Illuvatar...

[Halbarad]

Ah, so that's where the reference is. Thank you for clearing that up. On another note- have you noticed that all of the greatest sub-creation by the elves was destroyed or taken away from them? e.g the Silmarils, the Rings of Power, Luthien, Arwen... (Luthien and Arwen are sub-creations of the elves in a way...)

[ September 30, 2003: Message edited by: Halbarad ]

[Lost One]

I don't think the power of the Three Rings just winked out when the One was destroyed: rather their power and properties began to fade and diminish, i.e. they lost the 'preservative' element that the elves created them for. The final scenes of LOTR still suggest they have some potency. Thus, when Galadriel threw down the walls of Dol Guldur, she was doing it still as a Ring-bearer.

[The Saucepan Man]

But it is in ROTK, in one of the appendixes, were it is said that Galadriel threw down the walls and laid bare the pits of Dol Guldur...

This makes it sound like Galadriel single-handedly conquered Dol Guldor, which would indeed make her pretty mighty. But just to put it into context, this was after an army of Elves from Lothlorien, led by Celeborn, had captured the citadel. Also, it came after Sauron's defeat following the destruction of the Ring, and so the forces holding the citadel would no doubt have been in disarray:

... and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lorien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldor, and Galadriel threw down the walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.

Galadriel is here placed once again in the healing, rather than the conquering, role. It was Celeborn and his army that did the conquering.

Presumably, the powers of Nenya would no longer have been available to Galadriel to enhance her healing talents at this stage since, as I understand it, the Three Elven Rings lost their powers when the One Ring was destroyed. Or did they perhaps retain some residual power for some time after its destruction?

Edit: Lost One, you seem to have anticipated my question. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] So, are you saying that Galadriel would not have been able to throw down the walls of the citadel without Nenya's power?

[ September 30, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Finwe]

Halbarad, I think that the reason that so many of the sub-creations of the Elves, as you have stated, were taken away was to make readers pity the Elves more. It was a literary device that was used to contrast the Elves superior beauty and power with their severe, poignant losses.

[Halbarad]

Yes, well, Tolkien did do a good job of making the elves miserable. Still, what is a good epic without tragedy right? I can't think of one without it.

[Lost One]

Saucepan Man - I think I am saying that. She was innately one of the most powerful elves, but surely this doesn't mean she would just glare at a fortress and it's walls fall down. The elven rings (in my interpretation) still had potency, though this would gradually dwindle, but this was more than enough for Galadriel to harness her's to focus her power, and thus bring healing to the land of Dol Guldur (which is perhaps how one might interpret the demolition of its evil fortifications). I can't prove any of his, of course!

[Halbarad]

On Orodruin, the light of the phial of Galadriel went out after Gollum went over the edge. Would this not point to the power being lost immediately. Sauron's power was lost instantly, and the Elven rings were dependent on the One's existence as much as Sauron and the Nazgul were. The work of the One, such as Barad Dur were destroyed when the power of the One was lost, therefore, the power of the phial was lost when the power of the Nenya was lost.
I think to think otherwise is merely being romantic.

[ October 04, 2003: Message edited by: Halbarad ]

[Iarhen]

I think you got a misimpression about the fact that the Phial never shone in Orodruin.

The power of the Phial was subdued in Mount Doom. It says so in ROTK. It did not shone because all powers were subdued there, in the heart and core of Sauron's might.

The Phial never shone there. But after the One was destroyed, when Gandalf gave it back to Frodo, it still shone.

Even though the power of Nenya was present in the makiing of the Phial, as well as Nenya, the Phial was not shorn of it's power completely after some time later.

Nenya had no power, as well as Narya and Vilya, when the company went to Valinor. It's last power, to ward off tiredness of this M.E. in favour of their beareres, was lost. And it was impossible now for Galadriel and Elrond to stay here because they longed terribly for Aman.

[Tar Elenion]

Why do you believe that the power of Nenya was used to make the Phial?

[Iarhen]

For the same reason why the Phial did not shine in Mount Doom.

If Galadriel had only used her power, not Nenya's, the Phial could have, at least, comforted Sam. If it was only Galadriel's work, her power would have had some kind of influence on Sam, even at Orodruin.

But the Phial was pale and cold, an image of Nenya dominated by the One Ring.

Besides, since Nenya boosted Galadriel's power, and knowing the type of mission that both Frodo and Sam had ahead, she would have made her best when creating the Phial. Meaning: using Nenya to improve her creation, the Phial.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Wasn't the Phial created from the light of Earendil? I mean, like in the case of the Two Trees. Telperion's light(liquified) was used to make new stars. Earendil's light(well, not liquified, but gathered in the water) was used to make the Phial.