Prince Imrahil's elven descent - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Willow · 12-28-2002, 01:11 PM

Were the Eldar only the Noldor elves? If Prince Imrahil was descended partially from Amroth's people, then either Amroth was a Silvan elf, which is implied in the book, or Prince Imrahil's ancestors of the race of men were not of the three houses that fought against Morgoth, or the Edain. (Or both.) If Amroth was a Silvan elf, that would mean that the Silvan elves were not counted as Eldar, because the only 3 unions of the Eldar and the Edain were Beren and Luthien, Idril and Tuor, and Arwen and Aragorn. I've been reading the Lost Tales, and it seems like the meaning of Eldar keeps changing, so I'm confused. Can anyone help? Thanks.

Curulin · 12-28-2002, 01:21 PM

After the elves awoke, and they were summoned to Valinor, some of them refused the journey and some decided to go. The elves that decided to go were called the Eldar, and these were split up into three houses: the Vanyar, the Noldor and the Teleri. The ones that didnt go were called the Avari, and of these the silan elves descended, so it would still be ok to say that Prince Imrahil's ancestor was involved in an elf-man marriage, its just that Amroth (the elf) wasn't an Elda, he was a silvan elf descended from the Avari.

I think all of that's right, but if i'm wrong someone correct me please.
curulin

p.s. was legolas and his kin from mirkwood silvan elves?

[ December 28, 2002: Message edited by: Curulin ]

Man-of-the-Wold · 12-28-2002, 04:00 PM

Well, I don't know how this is reconciled. Amroth and others of the Silvan Elves were probably Eldar, in that they were descended from the Teleri of the Second Sundering, the Nandor, which also populated areas of what became Gondor and Eriador at times up thru the Second Age. A part of this group also eventually entered Beleriand and were the Green-Elves, who also accompanied Grey-Elves in the Second Age in colonizing the Eastern Woodlands.

The Green Elves were sort of intermediary between the Beleriandic Sindar who knew the influence of Thingol & Melian, and the Non-Beleriandic Nandor, who were still in some sense Eldar.

The Avari were left in the rather distant East, and they apparently never had any longing to ever go to Valinor, whereas with the Sindar, Laiquendi and Nandor the longing merely slept.

Some of the Wood-Elves of Thranduil's realm may have been in large part derived from Avari, however.

Seemingly, though, Amroth, Nimrodel and any of the Elves venturing to Gondor/Edholland in the Second through Fourth Ages to pass over the Sea (if not Sindar/Noldor) were Nandorin. True Avarian Elves would not have had this desire for the most part.

Imrahil's Elven ancestors were not necessarily related to Amroth, but was/were apparently an Elf-maiden or two who eventually went West, after bearing the child/children of a Gondorin Dunedain, as described in the UTs.

What I think the significantly difference here is that Luthien and Idril were not only much greater, but the nature of such offspring in terms of being Elf or Mortal was undetermined until the end of the First Age. And, it is only through these unions and the crowning one (pun intended) of Aragorn and Arwen, that the blood of the Firstborn was introduced and mingled with that of Men.

After that the Valar probably made it such that any other offspring of Elf-Man that might later arise would simply be Men and Women, and notwithstanding how Imrahil's ancestors who were born of such unions seem to have carried superficial Elfin traits in terms of appearance and what not, they were not Peredhil, like Earendil, Dior, Elwing, Elwing's brothers, Elrond, Elros or Elrond's Children, nor were they like Arwen's children, who were nevertheless Mortal.

Man-of-the-Wold · 12-29-2002, 05:06 PM

I might further note based on what I'm reading in HoME V, assuming JRRT more or less maintained this structure, was that the Nandor (except perhaps those that later entered Beleriand as the Laiquendi) were neither Eldar nor Avari. They were in the middle, orginally he had intrepreted them as being in origin of the Noldor and with the name Danas.

So, in this framework, which JRRT may have later retranslated, the Silvan Elves who were of Nandorin descent were not Eldar, and so the Elfin ancestors of Prince Imrahil would not have represented a union of Man and Eldar, such as the might three: Tuor-Idril, Beren-Luthien or Arwen-Aragorn.

The Nandor in this sense, however, were not Avari, and like the Eldarin Grey-Elves (Sindar) and Green-Elves (Laiquendi) they had a deep longing for the sea and to pass in the West, which eventually awoke, and that most if not all of these Silver-Elves did so by the time of, or shortly after, the Last Ship left from the Grey Havens, which was primarily for the transport of the Eldar, whereas the Elves of Lorien had long tended to set sail from the Bay of Belfalas.

Possibly, some Silvan Elves, who were Nandorin, never left Middle-Earth, and like the Avari, they stayed and faded, but in contrast to an earlier Topic of mine, that would have thus left no Eldar in Middle Earth after the early Fouth Age.

Also possible is that a large part of Thranduil's Realm was comprised of Avari who had eventually wandered eastward, and was not so much Nandorin. The people of Lorien were probably almost entirely Nandor or Eldar.

Selmo · 01-09-2003, 05:27 AM

In answer to Zacattack's question about why Imrahil, as a prince of Gondor, wasn't ruling in place of the Stewards:

When the last King went to Minas Morgal to answer the Witch King's challange and disapeared, there was no direct heir to take his place. There were several distant relatives to the King, such as the Prince of Dol Amroth, who could have claimed the throne but the Steward took control to prevent a civil war between the claimants. There had been a disasterous civil war over the succession a few generations earlier and no-one was keen to repeat the experience.

Gwaihir the Windlord · 01-09-2003, 06:23 AM

The Nandor were Eldar, as were all you began the march whether they finished it or not.

Quote:

(Of the Silvan Elves, who were Nandor) They dwindled and became a rude and rustic people, hardly to be distinguished from Avari; yet they remembered in their hearts that they were indeed in origin Eldar...'

They again increased in wisdom when the Beleriandic Elves came among them.

Man-of-the-Wold · 01-11-2003, 06:03 PM

Yes, UT and Silm77 would tend to make the majority of the Elves of Lothlorien (if not Thranduil's realm) Nandorin Eldar -- that is, if one must divide the world into two mutually exclusive categories. But in a sense they were in-between, and at times JRRT would stress that aspect.

I still think it is possible to reconcile Prince Imrahil's "elvish" ancestors, with the statement elsewhere that there were only three (true) Eldar-Man unions. As follows:

1. Allow that JRRT in such matters should not be expected to be perfectly precise, and thus there there are "Eldar" and then there are Eldar. It is as much poetry as biology.

2. That the Elf-Man offspring of Silvan migrants in Belfalas were despite great beauty, simply mortal Men, whereas the three great unions represent more because of the choices bestowed on Earendil, et al., and Melian's role as ultimate foremother.

12-28-2002, 01:11 PM	#1
Willow Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 16	Prince Imrahil's elven descent Were the Eldar only the Noldor elves? If Prince Imrahil was descended partially from Amroth's people, then either Amroth was a Silvan elf, which is implied in the book, or Prince Imrahil's ancestors of the race of men were not of the three houses that fought against Morgoth, or the Edain. (Or both.) If Amroth was a Silvan elf, that would mean that the Silvan elves were not counted as Eldar, because the only 3 unions of the Eldar and the Edain were Beren and Luthien, Idril and Tuor, and Arwen and Aragorn. I've been reading the Lost Tales, and it seems like the meaning of Eldar keeps changing, so I'm confused. Can anyone help? Thanks. __________________ Peruser of old threads.

12-28-2002, 01:21 PM	#2
Curulin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The woods of Orome. Posts: 58	After the elves awoke, and they were summoned to Valinor, some of them refused the journey and some decided to go. The elves that decided to go were called the Eldar, and these were split up into three houses: the Vanyar, the Noldor and the Teleri. The ones that didnt go were called the Avari, and of these the silan elves descended, so it would still be ok to say that Prince Imrahil's ancestor was involved in an elf-man marriage, its just that Amroth (the elf) wasn't an Elda, he was a silvan elf descended from the Avari. I think all of that's right, but if i'm wrong someone correct me please. curulin p.s. was legolas and his kin from mirkwood silvan elves? [ December 28, 2002: Message edited by: Curulin ] __________________ Well, I'm back.

12-28-2002, 04:00 PM	#3
Man-of-the-Wold Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: With Tux, dread poodle of Pinnath Galin Posts: 239	Well, I don't know how this is reconciled. Amroth and others of the Silvan Elves were probably Eldar, in that they were descended from the Teleri of the Second Sundering, the Nandor, which also populated areas of what became Gondor and Eriador at times up thru the Second Age. A part of this group also eventually entered Beleriand and were the Green-Elves, who also accompanied Grey-Elves in the Second Age in colonizing the Eastern Woodlands. The Green Elves were sort of intermediary between the Beleriandic Sindar who knew the influence of Thingol & Melian, and the Non-Beleriandic Nandor, who were still in some sense Eldar. The Avari were left in the rather distant East, and they apparently never had any longing to ever go to Valinor, whereas with the Sindar, Laiquendi and Nandor the longing merely slept. Some of the Wood-Elves of Thranduil's realm may have been in large part derived from Avari, however. Seemingly, though, Amroth, Nimrodel and any of the Elves venturing to Gondor/Edholland in the Second through Fourth Ages to pass over the Sea (if not Sindar/Noldor) were Nandorin. True Avarian Elves would not have had this desire for the most part. Imrahil's Elven ancestors were not necessarily related to Amroth, but was/were apparently an Elf-maiden or two who eventually went West, after bearing the child/children of a Gondorin Dunedain, as described in the UTs. What I think the significantly difference here is that Luthien and Idril were not only much greater, but the nature of such offspring in terms of being Elf or Mortal was undetermined until the end of the First Age. And, it is only through these unions and the crowning one (pun intended) of Aragorn and Arwen, that the blood of the Firstborn was introduced and mingled with that of Men. After that the Valar probably made it such that any other offspring of Elf-Man that might later arise would simply be Men and Women, and notwithstanding how Imrahil's ancestors who were born of such unions seem to have carried superficial Elfin traits in terms of appearance and what not, they were not Peredhil, like Earendil, Dior, Elwing, Elwing's brothers, Elrond, Elros or Elrond's Children, nor were they like Arwen's children, who were nevertheless Mortal. __________________ The hoes unrecked in the fields were flung, __ and fallen ladders in the long grass lay __ of the lush orchards; every tree there turned __ its tangled head and eyed them secretly, __ and the ears listened of the nodding grasses; __ though noontide glowed on land and leaf, __ their limbs were chilled.

12-29-2002, 05:06 PM	#4
Man-of-the-Wold Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: With Tux, dread poodle of Pinnath Galin Posts: 239	I might further note based on what I'm reading in HoME V, assuming JRRT more or less maintained this structure, was that the Nandor (except perhaps those that later entered Beleriand as the Laiquendi) were neither Eldar nor Avari. They were in the middle, orginally he had intrepreted them as being in origin of the Noldor and with the name Danas. So, in this framework, which JRRT may have later retranslated, the Silvan Elves who were of Nandorin descent were not Eldar, and so the Elfin ancestors of Prince Imrahil would not have represented a union of Man and Eldar, such as the might three: Tuor-Idril, Beren-Luthien or Arwen-Aragorn. The Nandor in this sense, however, were not Avari, and like the Eldarin Grey-Elves (Sindar) and Green-Elves (Laiquendi) they had a deep longing for the sea and to pass in the West, which eventually awoke, and that most if not all of these Silver-Elves did so by the time of, or shortly after, the Last Ship left from the Grey Havens, which was primarily for the transport of the Eldar, whereas the Elves of Lorien had long tended to set sail from the Bay of Belfalas. Possibly, some Silvan Elves, who were Nandorin, never left Middle-Earth, and like the Avari, they stayed and faded, but in contrast to an earlier Topic of mine, that would have thus left no Eldar in Middle Earth after the early Fouth Age. Also possible is that a large part of Thranduil's Realm was comprised of Avari who had eventually wandered eastward, and was not so much Nandorin. The people of Lorien were probably almost entirely Nandor or Eldar. __________________ The hoes unrecked in the fields were flung, __ and fallen ladders in the long grass lay __ of the lush orchards; every tree there turned __ its tangled head and eyed them secretly, __ and the ears listened of the nodding grasses; __ though noontide glowed on land and leaf, __ their limbs were chilled.

01-11-2003, 06:03 PM	#7
Man-of-the-Wold Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: With Tux, dread poodle of Pinnath Galin Posts: 239	Yes, UT and Silm77 would tend to make the majority of the Elves of Lothlorien (if not Thranduil's realm) Nandorin Eldar -- that is, if one must divide the world into two mutually exclusive categories. But in a sense they were in-between, and at times JRRT would stress that aspect. I still think it is possible to reconcile Prince Imrahil's "elvish" ancestors, with the statement elsewhere that there were only three (true) Eldar-Man unions. As follows: 1. Allow that JRRT in such matters should not be expected to be perfectly precise, and thus there there are "Eldar" and then there are Eldar. It is as much poetry as biology. 2. That the Elf-Man offspring of Silvan migrants in Belfalas were despite great beauty, simply mortal Men, whereas the three great unions represent more because of the choices bestowed on Earendil, et al., and Melian's role as ultimate foremother. __________________ The hoes unrecked in the fields were flung, __ and fallen ladders in the long grass lay __ of the lush orchards; every tree there turned __ its tangled head and eyed them secretly, __ and the ears listened of the nodding grasses; __ though noontide glowed on land and leaf, __ their limbs were chilled.

01-09-2003, 05:27 AM	#5
Selmo Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom Posts: 273	In answer to Zacattack's question about why Imrahil, as a prince of Gondor, wasn't ruling in place of the Stewards: When the last King went to Minas Morgal to answer the Witch King's challange and disapeared, there was no direct heir to take his place. There were several distant relatives to the King, such as the Prince of Dol Amroth, who could have claimed the throne but the Steward took control to prevent a civil war between the claimants. There had been a disasterous civil war over the succession a few generations earlier and no-one was keen to repeat the experience.