Arwen's Lament - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Elianna · 03-08-2005, 05:06 PM

Anyone want to explain what the expletive it means:

With a sigh you turn away,
With a deepening heart no words to say,
You will find that the world has changed forever.

The leaves are now changing from green to golden
And the sun is now fading
I wish I could hold you closer.

It seems to me a nonsensical jumble of vaguely Tolkien sounding words and ideas, but maybe I just don't undestand poetry (as Sam put it).

Lathriel · 03-08-2005, 07:07 PM

So in other words you are sad about what PJ did to Arwen in the movie?

Elianna · 03-08-2005, 08:13 PM

Not so much sad, but upset. My main elven alter-ego is Glorfindel's daughter, and I'm a purist, so that doesn't leave much room for liking the movie-Arwen.

But that's not what this topic is about. I do not understand what the song is talking about.

Upon another reading I guess I understand the second verse. "Leaves are now changing from green to gold, and the Sun is now fading." The ideas here are similar to Galadriel's "O Lorien! The Winter comes! The bare and leafless day. / The leaves are falling in the stream, the river flows away." The Elves are fading, the world is changing. Then "I wish I could hold you closer." duh, Arwen wishes she weren't seperated from Aragorn.

I still don't "get" the first verse. And while I partially understand it being said by Arwen, I still don't understand how it fits into the Houses of Healing.

Sorry for the tone of these posts, I get touchy about my not understanding poetry.

Encaitare · 03-08-2005, 09:11 PM

Perhaps it has something to do with how Faramir and Eowyn have both suffered a loss of close kin -- their worlds have changed forever?

Elianna · 03-08-2005, 09:12 PM

Thank you. I'm happy now.

Dûrbelethwen · 03-09-2005, 08:27 AM

"I still don't "get" the first verse. And while I partially understand it being said by Arwen, I still don't understand how it fits into the Houses of Healing."

It orignally was to be sung in the background of the scene when Arwen had her vision Eldarion before she turn back to Rivendell.

Lathriel · 03-09-2005, 05:57 PM

Maybe the first verse is also about what Arwen feels when she's thinking of Aragorn.
But I think it can also count for the Hobbits, or the whole fellowship since their experiences change their views on the ME.
E.g Legolas and Gimli's views of the races of dwarves and men.Eowyn's change of heart. Frodo being taken over by the ring's influence.

Evisse the Blue · 03-11-2005, 04:27 PM

The way I see it, it's about MovieArwen being separated from MovieAragorn and pining for him.
But you've got me as to how it fits with the Houses of Healing scene...Maybe they thought that Eowyn could also say such words, since Aragorn is also 'turning away from her'.
Anyway, I find it a bit funny that Philippa says in the Extended ROTK that placing Arwen's lament during Eowyn's healing scene was meant to create a connexion between the two women. Well, the connexion is already, I think, pretty obvious!
(Oh no, here I go again, dumbing it down!

)

Arwen Imladris · 03-22-2005, 04:44 PM

Ya, you've got to remember that the song was originally written and recorded to be a song from Arwen to Aragorn, but in the end they just transposed it ontop of the Eowen/Faramir scene. Basically, I'm not sure how much sense is supposed to be in it.

Originally, it looks to be a song about how Arwen longs for Aragorn and how the old world that she knows is passing into the west. She understands what Aragorn must do, but she wishes he could just stay with her.

Where it's placed, however, could be about how they've both faced the darkness and the world will never be the same. They understand each other and can fill the void in each other's hearts, but first they must each let their own guard down.

01-10-2007, 04:11 PM

I think that the first verse of the song is actually Arwen voicing the thoughts and feelings of Eowyn as she realises that Aragorn can never return her love but must fulfill his destiny as a king of men (that sounds so trite!). Eowyn's world is painfully redefining itself as she tries to accept Theoden's death and Aragorn's role in the War of the Ring; Arwen's world changes with her decision to give up passage to the Undying Lands and immortality.
The second verse applies to both women: for Arwen, the time of the Elves is passing (the leaves of Lorien are golden and falling for the last time); for Eowyn, the sun is fading as she mourns her doomed love for Aragorn (an homage to her dream--originally told to Faramir in the Houses of Healing, not to Aragorn in Meduseld--a great wavecomes, she stands upon the brink, and it is utterly dark). The last line ("I wish I could hold you closer") for Arwen is her yearning for his touch when they are separated by distance; for Eowyn it is her hopeless love for a man who could never be hers.
This is all my speculation, of course

03-08-2005, 05:06 PM	#1
Elianna Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Ad finem itineris Posts: 384	Arwen's Lament Anyone want to explain what the expletive it means: With a sigh you turn away, With a deepening heart no words to say, You will find that the world has changed forever. The leaves are now changing from green to golden And the sun is now fading I wish I could hold you closer. It seems to me a nonsensical jumble of vaguely Tolkien sounding words and ideas, but maybe I just don't undestand poetry (as Sam put it). __________________ Enyale cuilenya, ú-enyale mandenya.

03-08-2005, 07:07 PM	#2
Lathriel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME) Posts: 612	So in other words you are sad about what PJ did to Arwen in the movie? __________________ Back again

03-08-2005, 08:13 PM	#3
Elianna Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Ad finem itineris Posts: 384	Not so much sad, but upset. My main elven alter-ego is Glorfindel's daughter, and I'm a purist, so that doesn't leave much room for liking the movie-Arwen. But that's not what this topic is about. I do not understand what the song is talking about. Upon another reading I guess I understand the second verse. "Leaves are now changing from green to gold, and the Sun is now fading." The ideas here are similar to Galadriel's "O Lorien! The Winter comes! The bare and leafless day. / The leaves are falling in the stream, the river flows away." The Elves are fading, the world is changing. Then "I wish I could hold you closer." duh, Arwen wishes she weren't seperated from Aragorn. I still don't "get" the first verse. And while I partially understand it being said by Arwen, I still don't understand how it fits into the Houses of Healing. Sorry for the tone of these posts, I get touchy about my not understanding poetry. __________________ Enyale cuilenya, ú-enyale mandenya.

03-08-2005, 09:12 PM	#5
Elianna Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Ad finem itineris Posts: 384	Thank you. I'm happy now. __________________ Enyale cuilenya, ú-enyale mandenya.

03-09-2005, 05:57 PM	#7
Lathriel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME) Posts: 612	Maybe the first verse is also about what Arwen feels when she's thinking of Aragorn. But I think it can also count for the Hobbits, or the whole fellowship since their experiences change their views on the ME. E.g Legolas and Gimli's views of the races of dwarves and men.Eowyn's change of heart. Frodo being taken over by the ring's influence. __________________ Back again

03-08-2005, 09:11 PM	#4
Encaitare Bittersweet Symphony Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise Posts: 2,033	Perhaps it has something to do with how Faramir and Eowyn have both suffered a loss of close kin -- their worlds have changed forever?

03-09-2005, 08:27 AM	#6
Dûrbelethwen Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 80	"I still don't "get" the first verse. And while I partially understand it being said by Arwen, I still don't understand how it fits into the Houses of Healing." It orignally was to be sung in the background of the scene when Arwen had her vision Eldarion before she turn back to Rivendell.

03-11-2005, 04:27 PM	#8
Evisse the Blue Brightness of a Blade Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: wherever I may roam Posts: 2,740	The way I see it, it's about MovieArwen being separated from MovieAragorn and pining for him. But you've got me as to how it fits with the Houses of Healing scene...Maybe they thought that Eowyn could also say such words, since Aragorn is also 'turning away from her'. Anyway, I find it a bit funny that Philippa says in the Extended ROTK that placing Arwen's lament during Eowyn's healing scene was meant to create a connexion between the two women. Well, the connexion is already, I think, pretty obvious! (Oh no, here I go again, dumbing it down! ) __________________ And no one was ill, and everyone was pleased, except those who had to mow the grass.

03-22-2005, 04:44 PM	#9
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	Ya, you've got to remember that the song was originally written and recorded to be a song from Arwen to Aragorn, but in the end they just transposed it ontop of the Eowen/Faramir scene. Basically, I'm not sure how much sense is supposed to be in it. Originally, it looks to be a song about how Arwen longs for Aragorn and how the old world that she knows is passing into the west. She understands what Aragorn must do, but she wishes he could just stay with her. Where it's placed, however, could be about how they've both faced the darkness and the world will never be the same. They understand each other and can fill the void in each other's hearts, but first they must each let their own guard down. __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

01-10-2007, 04:11 PM	#10
merln Guest Posts: n/a	Arwen as the voice of Eowyn I think that the first verse of the song is actually Arwen voicing the thoughts and feelings of Eowyn as she realises that Aragorn can never return her love but must fulfill his destiny as a king of men (that sounds so trite!). Eowyn's world is painfully redefining itself as she tries to accept Theoden's death and Aragorn's role in the War of the Ring; Arwen's world changes with her decision to give up passage to the Undying Lands and immortality. The second verse applies to both women: for Arwen, the time of the Elves is passing (the leaves of Lorien are golden and falling for the last time); for Eowyn, the sun is fading as she mourns her doomed love for Aragorn (an homage to her dream--originally told to Faramir in the Houses of Healing, not to Aragorn in Meduseld--a great wavecomes, she stands upon the brink, and it is utterly dark). The last line ("I wish I could hold you closer") for Arwen is her yearning for his touch when they are separated by distance; for Eowyn it is her hopeless love for a man who could never be hers. This is all my speculation, of course