Of the Eagles, Elves and Warfare - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

steve · 10-23-2002, 09:47 PM

I had posted this under the topic "middle earth airforce" but what I said was that it seems to me that if bid the Great Eagles that you may beable get their aid, but couldnt the elves, I say elves because they have the ebst marksmen in Middle Earth, why couldnt they (speaking from a strategist's point of view)why could the Elves use the Great Eagles as a mount like the men of Harad did with the Olipahnt or the Nazgul did with the Fell beasts, and use them for warfare?

Also on another subject, why could the Council of Elrond have sent the ring on one of the elven boats leaving from the Havens and keep it there, I would presume that the ring would be safe with the Valar because we see that not even Morgoth could destroy the Valar when he assailed them, so would it not be logical to send the ring there

[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: steve ]

Ar-Luman · 10-23-2002, 10:16 PM

To answer your first question, I do believe it is pheasable that the elves could do that, but I do not think for whatever reason the Eagles would allow that.

Secondly, to hide the ring in any capacity would not alleviate the problem, Sauron. If the ring had not been destroyed M.E would have fallen to the dark lord eventually. Even without the ring Saurons forces would have been able to conquer M.E. In the RotK when Gandalf lead the hosts of Gondor to the gates of the Dark Lord it was understood that they would not be able to defeat Sauron. And the army represented their was probably the greatest M.E had to offer.

Raefindel · 10-23-2002, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Also on another subject, why could the Council of Elrond have sent the ring on one of the elven boats leaving from the Havens and keep it there, I would presume that the ring would be safe with the Valar because we see that not even Morgoth could destroy the Valar when he assailed them, so would it not be logical to send the ring there

This was suggested at the Counci of Elrond and it was said that "They would not recieve it" It was a problem for Middle-earth to deal with.

[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Raefindel ]

Bill Ferny · 10-24-2002, 06:49 AM

Without looking at the books, I'm thinking that the only character to ever ride an eagle (at least in LotRs) was Gandalf. I think this is kind of the same deal as with Shadowfax. Both Shadowfax and the eagles are too noble or proud to be just rode around by anyone, not even elves.

Birdland · 10-24-2002, 08:45 AM

The Eagles in LoTR were no mere beasts. They were Maiar, on the same level as Gandalf or Saruman, and were the servants of the Vala Manwë himself.

I don't think any Elf is goin' scramble up on their back and say "Giddy-Up, Eagle!" At least not more than once.

[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 10-24-2002, 10:42 AM

Were the Eagles actually Maiar? I thought they were servants of Manwe of a lesser degree.

Matthew2754 · 10-24-2002, 12:02 PM

The eagles were not Maiar. The Maiar were created by Iluvatar. The Eagles were created by Manwe. They were Kelvar as are men, Elves, and rabbits.

Birdland · 10-24-2002, 12:56 PM

Here's what Tolkien had to say about the matter, from Morgoth's Ring. (Apparently he couldn't make up his mind about it, either.)

Quote:

Considering the matter of Orcs, and whether their speaking ability implies that they have souls (fëar), he observes, "Only the Valar and Maiar are intelligences that can assume forms of Arda at will. Huan and Sorontar [Thorondor] could be Maiar – emissaries of Manwë. But unfortunately in The Lord of the Rings, Gwaehir and Landroval are said to be _descendants_ of Sorontar." In this essay, he rejects the idea of souls for Orcs, and adds, "The same sort of thing may be said of Huan and the Eagles: they were taught language by the Valar, and raised to a higher level–but they still had no fëar." Still, he changed his mind about Orcs and souls several time, and never came to a final conclusion–so it may be said of the Eagles that perhaps Thorondor was an emissary of Manwë, a Maia who, like Melian, was himself immortal and begat children who were not themselves immortal (nor necessarily even possessing a fëa, although they could speak).

As for me: I still regard Thorondor as a Maia. Whether Gwaihir was also is up in the air, but he was definitely on a higher plane than Shadowfax, (not that Shadowfax wasn't a great horse.)

Evenstar1 · 10-25-2002, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Whether Gwaihir was also is up in the air, but he was definitely on a higher plane than Shadowfax...

Ha! Nice one, Birdland! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

10-23-2002, 09:47 PM	#1
steve Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Edoras... er, Philadelphia Posts: 191	Of the Eagles, Elves and Warfare I had posted this under the topic "middle earth airforce" but what I said was that it seems to me that if bid the Great Eagles that you may beable get their aid, but couldnt the elves, I say elves because they have the ebst marksmen in Middle Earth, why couldnt they (speaking from a strategist's point of view)why could the Elves use the Great Eagles as a mount like the men of Harad did with the Olipahnt or the Nazgul did with the Fell beasts, and use them for warfare? Also on another subject, why could the Council of Elrond have sent the ring on one of the elven boats leaving from the Havens and keep it there, I would presume that the ring would be safe with the Valar because we see that not even Morgoth could destroy the Valar when he assailed them, so would it not be logical to send the ring there [ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: steve ] __________________ MAGIC SHOP! Spells of Mass Destruction 20% off! Today Only!

10-23-2002, 10:16 PM	#2
Ar-Luman Animated Skeleton Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Irving, Tx Posts: 27	To answer your first question, I do believe it is pheasable that the elves could do that, but I do not think for whatever reason the Eagles would allow that. Secondly, to hide the ring in any capacity would not alleviate the problem, Sauron. If the ring had not been destroyed M.E would have fallen to the dark lord eventually. Even without the ring Saurons forces would have been able to conquer M.E. In the RotK when Gandalf lead the hosts of Gondor to the gates of the Dark Lord it was understood that they would not be able to defeat Sauron. And the army represented their was probably the greatest M.E had to offer. __________________ "and I, I took the one less traveled by and that has made all the difference."

10-24-2002, 06:49 AM	#4
Bill Ferny Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bree Posts: 392	Without looking at the books, I'm thinking that the only character to ever ride an eagle (at least in LotRs) was Gandalf. I think this is kind of the same deal as with Shadowfax. Both Shadowfax and the eagles are too noble or proud to be just rode around by anyone, not even elves. __________________ I prefer Gillaume d’Férny, connoisseur of fine fruit.

10-24-2002, 10:42 AM	#6
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,992	Were the Eagles actually Maiar? I thought they were servants of Manwe of a lesser degree. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

10-24-2002, 08:45 AM	#5
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,757	The Eagles in LoTR were no mere beasts. They were Maiar, on the same level as Gandalf or Saruman, and were the servants of the Vala Manwë himself. I don't think any Elf is goin' scramble up on their back and say "Giddy-Up, Eagle!" At least not more than once. [ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

10-24-2002, 12:02 PM	#7
Matthew2754 Pile O'Bones Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 22	The eagles were not Maiar. The Maiar were created by Iluvatar. The Eagles were created by Manwe. They were Kelvar as are men, Elves, and rabbits.