Middle-earth Bad Popularity Cup

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Morgoth is interesting, but Bolg has a cool father and cool bodyguard and in the Middle-Earth: The Balrog cards he has a picture where he looks like a weird green Orc with a yellow horned helmet, but I like the picture. And he fought Beorn and was killed, whereas Morgoth fought Fingolfin and was not. Now say, who is cooler...

++Bolg

Orcs are nice.

[Andsigil]

A single orc, who wouldn't even be here had it not been for the Father of All Evil in ME vs. The Father of All Evil in ME?

I have to go with ++Mr Bauglir.

[skip spence]

++Morgoth the Marrer

Who was Bolg again?

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Bolg

He met his death like a man (well, an orc)
unlike weasely Morgoth hiding at the bottom
of his keep and letting his minions get whacked
(even the noble dragons)!

[wilwarin538]

++ Morgoth

Gotta love the crazy psycho bad guys....

and I don't know who Bolg is,

[Groin Redbeard]

Bolg sounds like an Orc who would sit on a pile of Crispy Cream Doughnuts and eat 'till he busts. The book doesn't mention anything scary about him at all; the only thing it says is that his bodyguards were big and strong.

++Morgoth

[Nerwen]

A tough one:

Bolg is certainly a tragic victim of the ursine menace and the son of that Orc with the really cool name... but there wouldn't have been much of a story without

++Morgoth.

[the phantom]

Well, hmm... Based on accomplishments you'd have to go with Morgoth.

Bolg could not contend with Beorn. Morgoth successfully competed against all the Valar for a long time.

Bolg was unable to win the Lonely Mountain from a small army of men, elves, and dwarves. Morgoth was able to hold sway over most of ME for a time, and then came back and took over lots of it again, snatching it from some of the greatest men, elves, and dwarves ever.

So really, if Bolg is going to win, it has to be based on something other than talent and power and cunning and deeds and stature etc.

Personality perhaps?

Nah... I just can't bring myself to vote Bolg over Morgoth. Bolg just isn't that impressive. Azog and Grishnakh are both way better, so if I'm going to pick an orc over the master of evil, there are better choices.

++Morgoth

[Morthoron]

++Melkor Morgoth Bauglir

Only the coolest Tolkien characters get nicks.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Morgoth-7 Bolg-2

Next: Two wild and crazy orcs vying for
the right to challenge Melkor Belegurth.
Hint to the winner of this match: Just say
"Ringil! Ringil! Ringil! to
psych M out.

Azog vs. Grishnakh


? Will a father/son orc combo fare as
well as an elf father/son duo? (0ne for two)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Nah, while I like Azog, and I like him far more than Bolg; and while I really disliked Grishnákh in the beginning (but just because he opposed Uglúk and he was such a not-having-his-own-mind servant), I developed some liking for him later. He is cunning in some way, although even that makes him sort of disgusting. But heck, he is not really that bad as a character. I would not be keen on becoming friends with him if I met him, but if it goes for voting...

++Grishnákh

[wilwarin538]

Definitely

++Grishnákh

Awesomest name, and totally wonderful at being evil!

[Andsigil]

Oh, come on, ladies and gents. Azog was a warrior king who slew at least two presumably tough dwarves in the form of Nain and Thrór. He also showed a particularly inventive and nasty personality in the subsequent mutilation of the latter said corpse.

Grishnákh displayed the strength of his sword arm by killing... er... kidnapping two hobbits and, umm, getting killed by a spear in the back whilst skulking off.

++Azog

[Groin Redbeard]

Thank you Andsigil. Azog is the most despicable orc in history! He deserves everyone's hatred as being the most despicable orc ever. Death and Azog deserved each other, thank God that Dain II Ironfoot brought them together.

Azog was a warrior king who slew at least two presumably tough dwarves in the form of Nain and Thrór.

We don't know if Azog killed Nain with his own hands; Nain went into Moria alone and was rolled out in two pieces, one of Azog's soldiers could have done it. Thrór was also battle worn when he faced Azog; still, it was an accomplishment, Grishnakh never gave us anything in reference to his achievements.


++Azog

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Azog certainly had a more successful
resume then Grishnakh. Exactly where
would he have gone had he escaped from the
Eotheod anyway, given that he was wrong
about the hobbits having the Ring? On foot
and across Anduin to a not happy Sauron or
flown back by a nazgul?

+ + Azog

[the phantom]

Both of these orcs are worthy competitors. Grishnakh is slippery evil, and played a rather important role in LotR.

But I've got to go with Azog here. He was responsible for starting the War of the Dwarves and the Orcs, and he was horribly evil.

Nar stayed near by for many days in hiding. One day he heard a loud shout and the blare of a horn, and a body was flung out on the steps. Fearing that it was Thror, he began to creep near, but there came a voice from within the gate:
'Come on, beardling! We can see you. But there is no need to be afraid today. We need you as a messenger.'
Then Nar came up, and found that it was indeed the body of Thror, but the head was severed and lay face downward. As he knelt there, he heard orc-laughter in the shadows, and the voice said:
'If beggars will not wait at the door, but sneak in to try thieving, that is what we do to them. If any of your people poke their foul beards in here again, they will fare the same. Go and tell them so! But if his family wish to know who is now king here, the name is written on his face. I wrote it! I killed him! I am the master!'
Then Nar turned the head and saw branded on the brow in Dwarf-runes so that he could read it the name AZOG. That name was branded in his heart and in the hearts of all the Dwarves afterwards. Nar stooped to take the head, but the voice of Azog said:
'Drop it! Be off! Here's your fee, beggar-beard.' A small bag struck him. It held a few coins of little worth.
Weeping, Nar fled down the Silverlode; but he looked back once and saw that Orcs had come from the gate and were hacking up the body and flinging the pieces to the black crows.

What a ridiculously evil chap. Not only did he kill Thror, but he branded his name across Thror's face in Dwarf-runes in order to torture and taunt his family.

++Azog

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Oh, come on, ladies and gents. Azog was a warrior king who slew at least two presumably tough dwarves in the form of Nain and Thrór. He also showed a particularly inventive and nasty personality in the subsequent mutilation of the latter said corpse.

I am not so sure as to whether Náin was tough. He seemed like a scared old man to me. But anyway... hey, nice picture, Andsigil!

Grishnákh displayed the strength of his sword arm by killing... er... kidnapping two hobbits and, umm, getting killed by a spear in the back whilst skulking off.

Well, he was not a warrior, he was a commander, but not a battle commander, I'd say; and a sort of sneaky-guy.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Azog-4 Grisnakh-2

Second Round:
(5) Carcharoth vs. Eol (3)
(7) Scatha the Worm vs. Tom (0)

(3) Smaug vs. Master of Laketown (2)
(5) The Witch King vs. Sauron (7)

(4) Ar-Pharazon vs. Glaurung (5)
(3) Bill Ferny vs. William (4)

(3) Shagrat vs. Grima Wormtongue (4)
(4) Morgoth vs. Azog (4)

Of the contestants:
4 men
3 dragons
2 trolls
2 orcs
1 vala
1 maia
1 elf
1 wolf
1 nazgul

Next:

Carcharoth vs. Eol

[Andsigil]

I've actually never thought of Eöl as evil, but dark. I'm not sure how much sense that makes, but it's the best I can do. This semi-abstract picture of Eöl and Aredhel by Tom Loback captures the feel for me:



In any event, as a fellow bladesmith, I have to go with ++Eöl.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I've actually never thought of Eöl as evil, but dark. I'm not sure how much sense that makes, but it's the best I can do.

It makes sense, at least for me.

Hmm. I think, to be really objective - or, rather: to be really subjective; I should read the tale of Eöl again. On first thought, I look Carcey more. But let's see... I may decide about my vote later.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Voting time extended for 12 hours +.

[Morthoron]

**Eol

Perhaps the most intriguing character in all the Silmarillion.

[the phantom]

I'm fine with either one of them. The fact that Eol was responsible for creating the best sword ever, the "Iron of Death" or "Iron of the Flaming Star", which led to Turin being named Mormegil (the "Black Sword"), tips the scales in favor of the Elf-smith. But the other is a WW so you can't go wrong with him either.

++Eol

[Nerwen]

++Carcharoth

Eöl is cool, in a creepy way... but someone has to vote for the WW.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Carcharoth

I like to think Frau Blucher (horses neigh)
would have voted for him.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by the phantom

The fact that Eol was responsible for creating the best sword ever, the "Iron of Death" or "Iron of the Flaming Star", which led to Turin being named Mormegil (the "Black Sword"), tips the scales in favor of the Elf-smith.

Well, yes, this is true. If for anything, I would vote him because of this. However, as Nerwen said,

Originally Posted by Nerwen

someone has to vote for the WW.

So

++Carcharoth

And also simply because I believe Eöl is not that good to get into another round; and Carcey has, in my opinion, less chance of winning the next one.

I'm leaving this open, if somebody else votes, though.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And also simply because I believe Eöl is not that good to get into another round; and Carcey has, in my opinion, less chance of winning the next one.

Hmmm...far be it from me to question your logic, however murky it may be.

But I do think Eol is a formidable candidate to move further on in the combat. He was as complex a character study as any other elf save for Feanor, perhaps. One of the greatest smiths -- AND a spellcaster as well? We get too few instances in the Tolkien's corpus of elvish magic not in tandem with imbued items (like palantiri, silmarils, swords and such). We know of Luthien and Finrod's songs of power, but what shadowy powers lurked in the darkness of Nan Elmoth? Spells of bewilderment, webs of deceit entangling hapless prey. It is certainly something I'd like to hear more about.

Add to that Eol's surly character, his dark visage and black thoughts, it certainly can be argued that the current popular image of a 'Dark Elf' resides almost solely in Tolkien's description of the cunning and cranky maker of galvorn, Anguirel and Anglachel.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

But I do think Eol is a formidable candidate to move further on in the combat. He was as complex a character study as any other elf save for Feanor, perhaps. One of the greatest smiths -- AND a spellcaster as well? We get too few instances in the Tolkien's corpus of elvish magic not in tandem with imbued items (like palantiri, silmarils, swords and such). We know of Luthien and Finrod's songs of power, but what shadowy powers lurked in the darkness of Nan Elmoth? Spells of bewilderment, webs of deceit entangling hapless prey. It is certainly something I'd like to hear more about.

Yes, yes, you are right... hmm... well, but like I said, you see, I would have to read about him once again to make it more "subjective". It is true also, that he was one of the Firsborn - right? He certainly was interesting in some aspects... hmm... well. We shall see how the voting goes. Nevertheless, for me, I still don't like him as much as most of the Orcs

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

But I do think Eol is a formidable candidate to move further on in the combat. He was as complex a character study as any other elf save for Feanor, perhaps. One of the greatest smiths -- AND a spellcaster as well? We get too few instances in the Tolkien's corpus of elvish magic not in tandem with imbued items (like palantiri, silmarils, swords and such). We know of Luthien and Finrod's songs of power, but what shadowy powers lurked in the darkness of Nan Elmoth? Spells of bewilderment, webs of deceit entangling hapless prey. It is certainly something I'd like to hear more about.

Sometimes substantive can be taken as complex. I don't need to know why Eol did what he did so long as he did them. Carcharoth is a good evil character to vote for; besides, you know where he stands.

++Carcharoth

[Macalaure]

Carcharoth entered Doriath when he wanted to.

Eöl had to pay a sword to leave it.

++Carcharoth

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

++Carcharoth

Not voting Eöl even though he was a good friend with Dwarves, Mr. Redbeard?

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Eöl had to pay a sword to leave it.

Ah, yes! But now that actually is a part of the story I like. Hmm... Now it really makes me think I should have voted differently.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

In a strong finish Carcharoth
(metaphorically) throws Eol
off a cliff:
Carcharoth- 5 Eol-3

Next:
Scatha the Worm vs. Tom

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Sometimes substantive can be taken as complex.

substantive: having or expressing substance, belonging to the real nature or essential part of a thing; essential.

complex: a whole made up of complicated or interrelated parts.

I suppose you knew what you were saying; however, I don't see the comparative context of 'substantive' as opposed to 'complex', particularly since complexity may be construed as a substantive component of Eol's nature.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Not voting Eöl even though he was a good friend with Dwarves, Mr. Redbeard?

This is a bad guy thread. Being friends with Dwarves doesn't make you a bad guy!

Originally Posted by Morth

I suppose you knew what you were saying; however, I don't see the comparative context of 'substantive' as opposed to 'complex', particularly since complexity may be construed as a substantive component of Eol's nature.

What I meant that Eol's character is difficult and obscure (difficult and obscure being synonyms of complex). Still, I guess I should have chosen one of those two words instead. That way people won't jump over me by pointing out that I do/don't know what I mean.

[the phantom]

Out of the trolls I like William better, so I can't see advancing the lesser of two trolls as he is up against a dragon. Dragons are way cooler. Scatha must've been pretty tough to take stuff from a bunch of dwarves and the ancestors of the Rohirrim.

++Scatha

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Agreed with tp. It's not such a pity if Tom goes - in fact, I liked him the least of the three trolls - and simply, Scatha is cool. Cool name, cool dragon, cool teeth, cool Fram...

++Scatha

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Slow responses so time extended to vote
for 12 + hours.

[Thinlómien]

++Scatha

Has a cooler name. ... ...

[Morthoron]

++Scatha

[Groin Redbeard]

++Scatha

I agree with Lommy; Scatha is a cool name!