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View Poll Results: Who, in the Lord of the Rings, was the most effective liar? | |||
Boromir | 0 | 0% | |
Denethor | 1 | 1.92% | |
Gollum | 2 | 3.85% | |
Saruman | 14 | 26.92% | |
Sauron | 22 | 42.31% | |
Wormtongue | 13 | 25.00% | |
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll |
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11-26-2007, 07:01 PM | #1 |
Itinerant Songster
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Who, in The Lord of the Rings, was the most effective liar?
Effective liar. Not the most prone, not the most self deceived, not the most obvious; no; rather, the most effective. Cast your vote and explain your thinking, if you like.
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11-26-2007, 07:55 PM | #2 |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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It can't be Boromir for his deception was short-lived and dubious in the first place as he regretted it and tried to heal the damage he had done. He was indeed effective to the good side in the end.
It won't be Denethor either for me as his lie was not effective enough to lead Gandalf and the defence of Minas Tirith astray. With Gollum there is the problem of only one part of him being treacherous as Frodo's behaviour managed to bring forth the other one: Sméagol against Déagol - even if the dark one could have been said to talk through the good one at times. Saruman's lies were also not profound enough to get my vote here as he too was revealed as what he was quite early on and he failed badly in the end and managed only through Wormtongue in relation to the Rohirrim. That would leave Sauron and Wormtongue for me. Sauron has his credits: swaying the smiths to forge the rings is a case in point. Fooling Saruman, the greatest of the Maiar in the ME and Denethor the steward of Gondor in a tight place are credits for him as well. There is effectiveness to the largest scale. But Wormtongue also was effective in ther scale of his reach. He managed to fool Théoden for a long time and would have been succesful if Gandalf had not broken the spell he had wowen. Also he managed to fool Saruman himself from his real feelings and capabilities in the end. So I would need to choose between the two until you give other arguments for me to change my mind on this.
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11-26-2007, 08:03 PM | #3 |
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There’s no doubt about it, Sauron the deceiver lied to the great smiths to create rings of power, so that he could give them to the great leaders of the races of Middle Earth, in hopes of controlling them all.
-He nearly controlled the Elves, but they were too clever for him. -The Dwarves were a hardy race, and to resistant for him to take an immediate toll on them. -The leaders of the race of men, however, fell victim to his scheme and became his greatest servants, the Nazgul. Sauron also through his web of lies and deceit gained another dark servant: Saruman, another person who was known to be skilled with deceiving people and controlling them, as we saw with Theoden. Now I have nothing to prove this thought, but wasn’t Sauron the one who brought about the destruction of Numenor? I’m pretty sure he corrupted the King at the time, but it has been a long time since I have read the Silmarillion.
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11-26-2007, 08:40 PM | #4 | |
Wisest of the Noldor
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So far Wormtongue is the only other one in the running. |
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11-26-2007, 08:40 PM | #5 |
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You didn't ask best you asked most effective. Given the difference in powers and whatnot I would have to say Wormtongue as his 'powers' were rather limited and finite yet his decite accomplished a great deal towards his cause. He nearly fooled an entire kingdom and lacking Gandalf he would have been successful.
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11-27-2007, 06:32 AM | #6 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Saruman's other lie
I though I should point out that Saruman gets away with another lie earlier in the book one that in its own way is both more audacios and more effective than any he is able to put over on Theoden via Wormtounge. The lie is when he tells the Morgul King that he does not know where the Shire is. As pointed out in the Unfinished Tales, Saruman would have had to know where it was. The agumen made goes something like this. Like Gandalf, Saruman by this tile also used pipeweed (Merry after being woken up by Aragorn and looking for his pipe says that the pipeweed he has is "some of Saruman's best") Since its use is still more or less unkown Tolkein makes it clear that the Shire and its immediate environs is the only place in middle earth from which pipeweed can be obtained. Therefore, anyone who uses pipeweed must have business contacts within the shire, or at least within hobbit lands. This lie is in its own way more audacious than those to Theoden. After all theoden represented little threat to Saruman on his own (i.e. sans ents and hourns) whereas lying to the morgul king if the lie was found out risked incurring the wrath of both the Morgul king (who is proably more powerful that Saruman one on one already by the time of the lie) and of Sauron himself. Even if Saruman was not yet in Sauron's thrall lying to the morgul king would be a risky move at best.
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11-27-2007, 06:35 AM | #7 | |||||
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11-27-2007, 08:46 AM | #8 | |
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I said Saruman...I'll get to the full explanation later, when I have more time. But pretty much it's summed up in Raynor's point:
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11-27-2007, 08:50 AM | #9 | |
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He who is absent but present on every page
Ah, I see that a name is omitted from this list. Surely the most effective liar in Lord of the Rings is the author himself, given the vigor of his imagination and the power of his conception to lead people to want to believe in Middle-earth, if not engage in actual belief itself that this is a story of our world's early ages.
And if the power of the tale itself is not evidence enough, consider his own statements. Look at his claim in the Prologue that hobbits "are an unobstrusive but very ancient people, more numerous formerly than they are today--now there's the very kind of falsehood the author engages in blatently stated--and the present tense continues in the subseqent paragraphs, leading to such statements as imply the existence of Dwarves (the race, not simply small humans) and indeed the author even makes the very claim that "Hobbits are relatives of ours". And one more example of the kind of lies our author makes which forms the very basis of the effectiveness of his fantastic art: Quote:
It cannot be said our author affirmeth nothing when he affirms that these are tales of the early years of our world. And who of us when reading are not convinced of these words, not merely suspending our disbelief but actually persuaded of the world? Indeed, the Author even went to some effort in a long essay to elucidate the nature of his persuasive art: developing desirability. There can be no fuller confession of the nature of the effectivenses of his authorial method than this.
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11-27-2007, 08:53 AM | #10 | |||
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You say that Saruman was capable of doing the same to the island of Numenor. He very well might have been able to, but he didn't. Therefore that makes Saurons acheivments all the more amazing, because no-one in the history of Middle Earth has done such an amazing feat.
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11-27-2007, 09:25 AM | #11 | |||||||
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11-27-2007, 09:43 AM | #12 | |
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I voted for Saruman. I fail to see what made Boromir a liar. He never meant anything bad to happen, it wasn't his fault the Ring attracted him, and he never really lied. I would forget the incident on Amon Hen- Boromir wasn't being himself and soon recovered and regretted what he had done. And, as far as I see it, Boromir's lies didn't cause anything bad to happen, on the contrary. Frodo succeeded because he left the Fellowship then, and we don't know what would have happened, had he not done it on that very moment. Sauron was scarier and more powerful as a servant of Melko than as the Dark Lord on the throne of Mordor. Furhermore, his power was rather in violence than in verbal things. Gollum never really achieved anything by lying. In the end all his lies turned against him. The same goes with Denethor. Even though he never had as great plans and motives, I think Wormtongue was in a way a better liar than Saruman- mainly because he wasn't too full of himself to see what happened around him (which happened to Saruman). What makes Saruman more effective is that he really used his power and knowledge. Wormtongue had a strong influence on Rohan's politics, true, but why was he working? Not for his own fun, surely, he never gained anything by betraying Théoden. He was Saruman's puppet, and his lies came directly from Saruman. Saruman dared to cheat the other members of the White Council for quite a long time, and I think that was riskier than lying to the Morgul king. And would he have been revealed even that early, had he not decided to tell Gandalf about his plans? Saruman's voice was of course an effective talent when it comes to lying. Nogrod said Saruman's lies were not profound enough, but it was his voice that made them profound and believable if they weren't that by themselves. If there was something Saruman succeeded in, it was destroying the Shire for a while. After Saruman's death the damage done was fixed, but the whole country was under his control before Frodo & co. returned. Everyone can decide themselves if it was a difficult thing to scare some Hobbits who didn't know anything about the cruel world, though... Considering the Downfall of Númenor, I think Saruman would have managed to destroy Númenor with the same means Sauron did, had he been there in Sauron's stead.
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11-27-2007, 09:46 AM | #13 | |
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11-27-2007, 09:58 AM | #14 | |
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As for "too early", Raynor and others, it's an open debate as to what status the Appendices have by way of "IN LotR", as the question was stated. So I'll allow the appendices as part of LotR for the purposes of this discussion. Effectiveness must take into account who gets misled and who doesn't. Wormtongue misleads the Rohirrim but not Gandalf. Saruman misleads Radagast & many of the Rohirrim but not Eomer and not Gandalf. And so on. |
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11-27-2007, 10:08 AM | #15 | |||
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11-27-2007, 01:03 PM | #16 | ||
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On one level, what you are saying is obviously correct. But there is another way to view things. By the rules set up by JRRT, the writer(s) of the Redbook implicitly lie within the story. Moreover, you have several overall narrators of the Legendarium, who were introduced earlier at different points. These historical/mythical narrators technically fall within Middle-earth. In effect, there is a widening circle of narrators, who have one or more feet inside the tale. At what point, do these concentric rings stop? At what point does history become myth (and vice versa)? Does that circle extend far enough to take in Tolkien and, in effect, make him the biggest and most effective liar of all? On the other hand, if you look at some of the language of certain Letters, Tolkien did feel that he was writing something that already existed as truth on some level. He was not lying or inventing. He was telling the truth about something that he was fortunate enough to be able to get a glimse of. That may be why his story rings so true to those of us who aren't so fortunate to possess that ability to "see" things on that level. This wasn't what the original question you raised. But on some level, it's fascinating to ask how the author stands in relation to truth and not truth. Either he is an enormously effective liar or the conveyor of some fundamental truths that the rest of us can't see as well as he did. On a practical basis, however, my vote goes to Sauron.
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Multitasking women are never too busy to vote. Last edited by Child of the 7th Age; 11-27-2007 at 01:07 PM. |
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11-27-2007, 01:19 PM | #17 | ||
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11-27-2007, 08:36 PM | #18 | ||||||||
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Well, from the way this thread has been set up by lmp (and I guess it was intentional ) is that there is no "correct" answer. All of them really are good choices. In fact, I think the list should be expanded...what about Gandalf and/or Aragorn who were great deceivers themselves! Making Sauron believe they were going to use the Ring to overthrow him, but instead sneak in 2 little hobbits to destroy it. Talk about deception!
Anyway as far as my vote for Saruman. To add onto some of the points...sure you can question parts of Tolkien's letters. But the specific part, from Letter 210, Raynor uses I think fits perfectly in line with LOTR. Quote:
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Getting back to Letter 210 and Saruman 'corrupting the reasoning abilities', I wanted to point out this interesting part from The Voice of Saruman. First, let me add at this time Saruman's power was in a decline: Quote:
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I like morm's point about Grima, and considered him, since he is a Man. But, what made me ultimately chose Saruman was the fact that Grima was Saruman's pawn.
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11-27-2007, 09:27 PM | #19 |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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I must say I really approved of Bêthberry's point on Tolkien being the master deceiver in the first place - as well as Boro's points about Gandalf being a master as well.
But if we need to choose between the choices given to us by lmp I'd still say that the real choice is between Sauron and Wormtongue - even if I do appreciate now more some of the arguments made in favour of Saruman. But in the end this sure is a question of a larger scale interpretation which is always open to doubt. But let me just ask you "the defenders of Saruman" how on earth do you come to an outcome where Saruman is the most effective liar if he himself is completely fooled by Sauron? Saruman thinks he has a chance to world domination and Sauron feeds his dreams to make him an auxiliary in his own war against the free races promising him might - and letting him believe he can be the master of his own destiny. Surely Saruman would have been disposable as soon as the time would have been ripe for it. But it was advantageous for Sauron to let Saruman to believe he was an independent player on the map who could have his own moves. So he was lured to be a pawn of Sauron. Now that I would call effective lying. Yes Saruman was a maia but so was Sauron - and Gandalf. But who of them was the most powerful? It would be hard to see that even Gandalf in his post-death might would have dared to confront Sauron. He did fool Sauron with his plan of the two hobbits entering Mordor to destroy the ring but unfortunately Gandalf was not among the choices we had. And btw. it's not very fruitful to discuss whether Saruman could have destroyed a whole island of the greatest civilisation on the the Middle-Earth like Sauron did by lying as he didn't do it. The question of the most effective liar handles things that happened, not what someone could have done... Also I think Raynor is right in asking whether things before the LotR are to be taken into account as lmp's original question concerned the LotR. I myself took account of things not in the LotR and thence admit having spoken of wrong things. But still I'd say it's Sauron (I voted him indeed) or then Wormtongue if we think of the handicap he had in power...
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11-27-2007, 10:18 PM | #20 | |
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But anyway, I disagree that Sauron was the one who fooled Saruman...Saruman wore some boots that were too big and deceived himself. Sauron just used it to his advantage.
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11-28-2007, 03:52 AM | #21 | ||
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11-28-2007, 08:12 AM | #22 | |
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But both Child's and Raynor's posts bring another interesting dimension to this question by pointing out that Tolkien, at some point in his life, decided or realized that what he was writing was true history, the very essence of real myth and he spent the remaining years of his life niggling his Legendarium to reflect more clearly aspects of his faith. Does this mean Tolkien saw himself as a Prophet, revealing God's truth? Did Tolkien believe that his writing personally helped him recover from the Fall--that is, did he believe that his writing granted him a State of Grace?
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11-28-2007, 11:02 AM | #23 |
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Interpret it as you like, but for the purposes of this thread the only 6 choices are those provided. Sorry.
I'm rather impressed, however, with Gandalf as an effective liar. Creating poll threads is a rather dangerous business since someone else will pretty certainly think of something I didn't. So it goes. |
11-28-2007, 11:14 AM | #24 | |
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11-28-2007, 07:07 PM | #25 | |
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This thread has gone south as far as I'm concerned, in directions I never intended. But it's not mine, it belongs to everybody who posts. The most effective rule, if anybody really wants one (which I doubt), is to leave your discussions strictly to the contents of the 6 "books", not including the appendices. And not including clever stuff about the Redbook of Westmarch or Tolkien as one of the characters up for grabs. But it seems like people are having just as much fun questioning or flouting the parameters, so if that's what you really want to do with this thread, have at it. There. My sour grapes have been squeezed out, and I'm done complaining. Have at it. Last edited by littlemanpoet; 11-28-2007 at 07:13 PM. |
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11-29-2007, 12:04 AM | #26 | |
Laconic Loreman
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I was told a story about a theater class. They decided to do the play Romeo and Juliet. However, there was only one boy who was not assigned a part, as they ran out of roles. So, the teacher asked him what he wanted to do, he could help behind the scenes, he could be a 'townsperson,' what did he want? The boy said he wanted to be a pig that shadowed Juliet and mirrored her emotions. The teacher laughed it off and said, "there are no pigs in Romeo and Juliet." The boy replied "Well, there is in this one." By restricting the info that is allowed to be mentioned you discourage creative thinking, and creativity can offer fascinating insights that you never considered before. With that said, this is a new idea, and a thread that has sparked some great discussion. So, how about we get back to that, eh?
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11-29-2007, 03:52 AM | #27 |
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Carry on.
By the way, I'm voting Sauron. See, it occurred to me that not once did Gandalf actually speak any words directly to Sauron, so Gandalf cannot be said to have lied to him. He did, however, strategize in such a way that he knew, knowing evil for what it is, that Sauron would deceive himself. So Sauron sufficiently lied to himself to lose the war. Thus, with this added reason to others so far posted, Sauron was the most effective liar. |
11-29-2007, 10:10 AM | #28 | ||
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What I've been trying to point out was that even though Grima and Saruman are both effective liars, but both failed to gain anything by it. -Gandalf didn't join Saruman when he was given the choice, and escaped even when Saruman imprisoned him. -Saruman and Grima had temporary hold over Théoden, but even that proved to be of little consequence. -Even though Saruman lied to the Witch King it's still debatable whether the Nazgul knew he was lying or not. They just didn't stay around to argue with him. Sauron's achievements are far greater then that of Saruman's or Grima's. I'll just stick with the facts and not his debatable achievements. -Sauron effectively lied to the Elven smiths to create the great rings. -Sauron fooled all the leaders of Middle Earth to take the rings. These people are supposed to be the leaders of each race! -Even though he didn't ensnare all the leaders, as he had wished, Sauron still gained the service of the nine great kings of men, to become his greatest servants. -Sauron also fooled Aragorn into believing that Arwen was dead. Why do you think he is called Sauron the deceiver? This is only my opinion What about the Mouth of Sauron? It is my belief that Sauron could speak through this person, and it is plain to see that the Mouth of Sauron fooled all but Aragorn at the Black Gate.
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11-29-2007, 10:55 AM | #29 | ||||||||||
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11-29-2007, 12:22 PM | #30 |
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Raynor, you and I are going back and forth at each other not getting anywhere. We make good arguments and all the other person can do is come along and say: "that's not true, here's what really happened." Our minds are closed to each others logic, and I think it's time we agree to disagree with each other.
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11-29-2007, 09:24 PM | #31 |
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I say Sauron because his lies were so effective it took the intervention of Iluvatar and a changing of the world.
Merry
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11-30-2007, 11:43 AM | #32 | ||
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Sauron had lost his ability to put on a 'fair hue,' after the sinking of Numenor, so he no longer was deceiving anyone. He ruled (and 'grew' in power) with fear and bribery, not through deception. Saruman relied solely on his cunning and his 'skillful voice' that corrupted your reasoning abilities. As Raynor pointed out Saruman had not only been fooling the White Council, and all of his allies, but for a time he was also fooling Sauron. I think we can see that in Gandalf's comment, which reminds me of the saying "you got caught with your hand in the cookie jar." Quote:
But, I would like to add, and I mentioned this earlier. Even after Saruman is figured out, and his voice began to 'lose its charm' he still has significant 'skill.' As he holds the Men of Rohan in a 'dream-like' state for a while, and he causes a seed of doubt to arise in Theoden's mind (after Theoden just told Saruman he was full of crap). To me that takes some skill, when everyone knows you're a tricky, in it for yourself, liar and you are still able to weave in doubt, you are still able to corrupt? Once Sauron lost his ability to assume a fair form, he was figured out and wasn't fooling anyone. He had to go to intimidation and bribery. Saruman still kept up his game of lying (lying quite 'effectively' I might add) even after everyone knew he was a traitor.
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11-30-2007, 02:09 PM | #33 | ||
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I wouldn't want my words to be taken just for granted , regarding the 160+ years:
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11-30-2007, 11:21 PM | #34 |
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Some very interesting posts.
Echoing some of the posts above, Sauron does seem a likely candidate in the 2nd Age, given that he deceived the men of Numenor so successfully, even if the fall of Numenor cannot be attributed to him alone. And perhaps more importantly, he did deceive the Elves of Eregion (with the exception of Galadriel). In the 3rd Age, I don't see much evidence that he deceived anybody. Saruman was able to deceive the entire White Council, with the exception of Gandalf and Galadriel to some extent (it is stated that Galadriel preferred Gandalf as the choice for the head of the Council and that Gandalf did not share all he knew himself about the Ring that Bilbo had found, implying some level of mistrust). But even in the case of Galadriel, the suspicion was not strong enough that she was willing to derail Saruman's appointment. This is in contrast to Sauron, who was never capable of deceiving either Galadriel or Gil-galad, even in the 2nd Age. One might argue that Saruman initially was not evil, but the falsity of his intentions was clear from the time when he started to search the Gladden Fields secretly, as far back as 2851 as Raynor points out above. Add to that the deceit of the men of Rohan and you have a pretty good record.
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11-30-2007, 11:35 PM | #35 |
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I think both of these are only in the movie...
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12-02-2007, 07:43 PM | #36 |
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For me, its definitely between Sauron and Saruman. Plenty of great evidence for both has been given. But, even after his defeat and the fall of Sauron, Saruman didn't miss a beat and went straight to the Shire, were he continued to advance his own agenda through deceit and manipulation. So my vote goes to Saruman as the most effective liar.
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Time is the mind, the hand that makes (fingers on harpstrings, hero-swords, the acts, the eyes of queens). |
12-03-2007, 12:28 AM | #37 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Why is Boromir even in this poll? Why is Denethor? Come on, they are not bad guys. Their situations are completely different, with the Ring and all. I could *maybe* see you making a case of Denethor, but definitely not Boromir. That's why nobody has voted for him. Because he does not belong there as a choice, in my opinion.
Anyway, I voted for Gollum. His lie did help save Middle earth, after all...
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"Loud and clear it sounds in the valleys of the hills...and then let all the foes of Gondor flee!" -Boromir, The Fellowship of the Ring |
12-03-2007, 09:14 AM | #38 | ||
Laconic Loreman
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Quote:
Quote:
And I believe Bethberry said Tolkien was the master liar.
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Fenris Penguin
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12-04-2007, 05:32 AM | #39 |
Fair and Cold
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For me, it came down to a tie between Sauron and Wormtongue. I ended up choosing Wormtongue. For an embittered little mortal dude, he sure did accomplish a lot.
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~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~ |
12-04-2007, 08:26 AM | #40 |
Flame Imperishable
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Right here
Posts: 3,995
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I vote Saron because he made all the Numenoreans evil and take part in human sacrifice. He also makes the go to Aman and die, as well as making them worship Melko (Morgoth). Not to mention the things he did in the LOTR. Oh, and he created the dwarven rings, as well as the ones for men, and they both at first accepted them.
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