Time - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Thingol · 03-11-2002, 04:50 PM

Ok, I'm a bit confused on the way in which elves/men measure the passage of time. From what I’ve read in the History of Middle Earth series and gathered on the internet there are 3 units of time: a solar year, Years of the Trees, and a Valian year (how time passes in Valinor). The Valian years and the Tree years are equal to each other, but there is some discrepancy on how to convert them into Solar Years. There seem to be two approaches, one is 1 Tree/Valian year equals 144 Solar years, and the other is 1 Tree/Valian year equals 9.58 solar years. I read Michael Martinez’s article on Sweet 101 and also a post by him in the New Silm Project and he seems to be of the opinion that 9.58 Tree/Valian years equals one Solar Year. However, I didn’t really understand his reasoning on why the 144 year conversion should be rejected, somehow the numbers didn’t work out. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I hate to bother you with my ignorance, but could someone explain it to me in a more simplistic manner? The support for the 144 year theory seems to come from the Lord of the Rings evidence on one yen equaling 144 years and since this is how the elves measure time, this is how long the Tree/Valian year should be. There are also some quotes from the Annals of Aman that support this, but apparently Tolkien was thinking about doing away with the whole Sun, Moon, Trees myth altogether, [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] and so the 144 Tree/Valian year equals 1 Solar Year thing is outdated. I don’t know, I’m confused. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] To think that at one point I thought the Silmarillion was tough, be prepared for more HoME questions to come in the future. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ March 11, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

Thingol · 03-11-2002, 04:55 PM

Also it says in that Elves typically take around 50 years to mature, (I assume those are solar years?) but what about the elves that were around before the Sun was created?

[ March 11, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

Mhoram · 03-11-2002, 09:27 PM

It is a mess and I dont' quite have an understanding of it yet. Likely we have a whole mix up of things Tolkien wrote at different times. Don't know if resolution is possible, but I hope to figure it out.

About the Elves marrying and having kids, that's from Quenti and Eldar, and as MM concluded, that 50 years has to be Years of the Sun because of the comparison with growth rate of men/children. Here's something really wierd though, none of the dates of marriage/having kids for the elves fit into that. It's way off, like 500 years instead of 50, but if you used 144 instead of 9.58, it's even futher off. I really dont' know what to think. For now I stick with 9.58 though, don't see any problems with it yet and can find no reason why 144 is better.

03-11-2002, 04:50 PM	#1
Thingol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 259	Time Ok, I'm a bit confused on the way in which elves/men measure the passage of time. From what I’ve read in the History of Middle Earth series and gathered on the internet there are 3 units of time: a solar year, Years of the Trees, and a Valian year (how time passes in Valinor). The Valian years and the Tree years are equal to each other, but there is some discrepancy on how to convert them into Solar Years. There seem to be two approaches, one is 1 Tree/Valian year equals 144 Solar years, and the other is 1 Tree/Valian year equals 9.58 solar years. I read Michael Martinez’s article on Sweet 101 and also a post by him in the New Silm Project and he seems to be of the opinion that 9.58 Tree/Valian years equals one Solar Year. However, I didn’t really understand his reasoning on why the 144 year conversion should be rejected, somehow the numbers didn’t work out. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I hate to bother you with my ignorance, but could someone explain it to me in a more simplistic manner? The support for the 144 year theory seems to come from the Lord of the Rings evidence on one yen equaling 144 years and since this is how the elves measure time, this is how long the Tree/Valian year should be. There are also some quotes from the Annals of Aman that support this, but apparently Tolkien was thinking about doing away with the whole Sun, Moon, Trees myth altogether, [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] and so the 144 Tree/Valian year equals 1 Solar Year thing is outdated. I don’t know, I’m confused. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] To think that at one point I thought the Silmarillion was tough, be prepared for more HoME questions to come in the future. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [ March 11, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ] __________________ Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.

03-11-2002, 04:55 PM	#2
Thingol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 259	Also it says in that Elves typically take around 50 years to mature, (I assume those are solar years?) but what about the elves that were around before the Sun was created? [ March 11, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ] __________________ Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.

03-11-2002, 09:27 PM	#3
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 363	It is a mess and I dont' quite have an understanding of it yet. Likely we have a whole mix up of things Tolkien wrote at different times. Don't know if resolution is possible, but I hope to figure it out. About the Elves marrying and having kids, that's from Quenti and Eldar, and as MM concluded, that 50 years has to be Years of the Sun because of the comparison with growth rate of men/children. Here's something really wierd though, none of the dates of marriage/having kids for the elves fit into that. It's way off, like 500 years instead of 50, but if you used 144 instead of 9.58, it's even futher off. I really dont' know what to think. For now I stick with 9.58 though, don't see any problems with it yet and can find no reason why 144 is better.