Alternate "Hiding the Ring" strategies

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Let's say Gandalf, Elrond, et. al. decide that it may
be "wise" to hide or protect the Ring for a while
(hey, at least elves and maia might escape Middle-earth ).

For one, how about putting it on an island?
While it's speculative, how absolute is
the dislike/fear for water bodies by Sauron and
his chums and was it a defining barrier?
For example, there are at least three
islands west/northwest of East Beleriand
http://www.tuckborough.net/coastal.html#Tol_Fuin
http://vaugnfreech.tripod.com/evandil/id6.html

The only effective ways for Sauron to get it, if he found
out where it was, would seem to be flying nazgul
(probably dizzy over Ulmo's ocean)
or the corsairs- but they'd be questionable since even
if they succeeded their leaders would probably then
want the Ring. And the very fact of the Ring's existence
in a place inaccesible directly for Sauron, could cause
envy, desire, unrest among even his forces.
And if sauron heard of it on an island beyond, say,
east Beleriand he might be tempted (being a rather
hasty maia) to push right through bypassing much of Rohan,
Gondor, Lorien, and Rhovannion---leaving himself open
to harassing and sapping attacks. Of course, there could
be a certain hobbit attrition.

[narfforc]

If The (un)Wise had tried to hide The One Ring instead of destroying it, then the said island would have to be unhinhabited. How far would the exclusion zone have to be around the island?I do not begin to imagine. For even knowledge of the treasure on the island would corrupt. Who would take it there, would Frodo have become another Gollum, marooned on the isle?. What damage would be done, if the Ring was sent all the way to Aman, what powerful being would it corrupt there. It would not be safe in the air, would it not corrupt The Maiar of the Heavens, or Earendil himself. I am afraid it could not be hidden safely, lest it was placed in the hand of Eru himself, why this is not an option I know not, for surely a thing made of the substance of Arda, would have no power of its ultimate creator.

[Farael]

I believe that the Valar could have resisted it's temptation.... it's a Maiar's "thing" and the Valar are mightier than them (or so I understand). But even then, Sauron would have probably taken over Middle Earth anyhow. It was only a matter of how long it would take him (barring a lucky break or another intervention by the Valar)

Yet, as the topic of this thread is to propose ALTERNATE strategies, I would suggest just tossing it into the ocean. Sure, it COULD wash up in some shore, but by tossing it into the ocean you make sure that no-one can know for certain where to find it... and thus, it's harder to be corrupted by it

[Tuor of Gondolin]

While Elrond (or Gandalf?) dismissed the ocean
solution (presumably on the suggestion of
JRRT) it has some merits. Wouldn't Ulmo,
one of the most (the most?) committed to
Middle-earth vala, have had an interest in safeguarding it?

Another thought. If the "good guys" had gotten
control of Orthanc could it have been sealed there
(covering the top entrance with more orthanc rock
and barring windows with orthanc rock?

And there seems to be a strong element of natural
fractiousness among the bad guys (remember the
two orcs in Mordor thinking of the "good old days"
and musing on becoming freelancers after a bad guy win
against Gondor. But more fundamental is an underlying
philosophy that i see in Tolkien's Middle-earth that
Iluvatar would not permit a permanent Sauron taking
over Middle-earth (areas could be dominating, as in the
Second Age, but eventually there would be a redressing of
Middle-earth ills).

More later.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Farael

But even then, Sauron would have probably taken over Middle Earth anyhow.

Isn't this rather the point. They might have hidden the Ring. They might even have been able to do so securely. But it would not have prevented Sauron defeating the Free Peoples militarily.

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

But more fundamental is an underlying philosophy that i see in Tolkien's Middle-earth that Iluvatar would not permit a permanent Sauron taking over Middle-earth

But doesn't it rather defeat defeat the point of their (and particularly Frodo's) struggle and make it all rather unnecessary if Eru was always going to "save" them in the end anyway?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

But doesn't it rather defeat defeat the point of their (and particularly Frodo's) struggle and make it all rather unnecessary if Eru was always going to "save" them in the end anyway?

Actually, I factor that in. The view is what some perceive as Tolkien's
pre-Christian Christian philosophy, and it involves free will. Allowing
free will necessitates bad/evil things happening/being enacted by
"bad guys". To allow this while still not permitting it to permanently
pervert God's/Eru's design/music means that poor decisions (Feanor)
evil acts (Morgoth) do have effects, sometimes long-lasting,
but that eventually actions will be taken to redress the
balance, but there will still be great damage done. Think of Eru's
comments when Morgoth tried to take over the music of the Ainur.
And I can't find the quote now, but someone says (Gandalf?)
something like "It cannot be as though evil never was."
Also recall the longterm, permanent damage done to Ea by the
struggle between Morgoth and the Valar which left it permanently
marred, yet still essentially intact.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

But doesn't it rather defeat defeat the point of their (and particularly Frodo's) struggle and make it all rather unnecessary if Eru was always going to "save" them in the end anyway?

I warrant that the best place to hide anything would be in the midst of the debate that this is about to spark off....

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Isn't this rather the point. They might have hidden the Ring. They might even have been able to do so securely. But it would not have prevented Sauron defeating the Free Peoples militarily.

But doesn't it rather defeat defeat the point of their (and particularly Frodo's) struggle and make it all rather unnecessary if Eru was always going to "save" them in the end anyway?

Yes, I think that even if they did hide it, then Sauron would have killed off everyone anyway, and the Ring would be prolonged even further from being destroyed, and more people would die than was needed.

[Valier]

Interesting. I don't know about the Island... you say Saron/minnions are afraid of water. Or that Sauron would ride a Nazgul. I think this unlikely, but I do think he would send someone or thing to go get it for him.How about if "we" threw it in the ocean...deep...do you think that might work?

[Elu Ancalime]

Well, I think besides the warning from gandalf: (Something like) Lands change and there are many beasts unknown...blah blah saying stuff can make it come back. In a more specific example, Deagol found it after so many years under some mud in the Anduin. Whop knows? Pearl divers from Lindon? But in any case, I think the Wise would rather know where its going and how they could get it back if they needed to. If it was thrown in the middle of the Sea, it would take forver to get it back. Considor: With modern technology, it might take months or even years to find a sunken pirate ship. Without that technology or size.....it would be completley thwoing the Ring away, moreso than Boromir and Corrupted Co. would say than sending it to Mordor with a halfling.
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[Essex]

But the Ring would play on the minds of the People who threw the Ring away in the first place.

It's 'calling' would almost certainly have people hunting for it, even though it might be generations of Men later.

It would still rot away in the Elfs' minds, chipping away at their resilience against it year after year........

and myths and legends of the Ring would still abound, hundreds of years later.

So by hiding the Ring they are leaving the hard work up to their Children to fix the issue.

A bit like Global Warming for example. Oh don't worry about that, we'll fix it later when we know for certain whether it'll ruin the Planet or not. We'll probably be OK, it's just our children and their children, with the majority of them living on or near a Coastline who will be deluged. They can fix it or move inland and start all over again......

(sorry to bring politics into it, but I think Global Warming is our 'Ring' we have to deal with....)

[Tuor in Gondolin]

In a more specific example, Deagol found it after so many years under some mud in the Anduin. Whop knows? Pearl divers from Lindon?

Rats. I forgot about that. Although I've thought that a reason (surprisingly missed
by JRRT) for the nazgul fear of going over water was the influence of the
vala there.

But one point above about the Ring's existence gnawing on elves and men's
greediness/desire for power. What if Gandalf
had had Frodo immediately head west to dispose of the ring without
elves, men, bad wizards, etc. (other then Gollum) being aware of it?
Gandalf could borrow a boat from Cirdan without specifying why.

Then get Ulmo to set up a cordon sanitaire.

[bilbo_baggins]

But then it would gnaw on Gandalf's mind, who as we already know (by way of his being tempted with the ring by Frodo's offer) is liable to temptation. Would it not grow upon at least him, and because of his solitude in the matter, enhance his suffering? On top of that, he can't die, so he will bear the burden for as long as he can bear it. No reprieve. And Gandalf the Grey at that time would not have been able to stand it. He was weak enough to be destroyed by a Balrog, let alone thousands of years of suffering by the Ring's torment. And he wouldn't be able to leave Middle Earth until Sauron was destroyed, and how could he very well do that with the distraction caused by the Ring?

Ahem.

Also at that point, Saruman could still find things out about the world at large, and many of the elves would probably be able to figure out what had happened, at least to some degree.

And prior to all that, the Ring itself has a physical manifestation of evil. It TRIES to get back to Sauron. It makes things happen in the world around it to move towards its goal. My opinion is that the Ring was docile until moved into Mordor, at which point it struggled with its bearer, attempting to return to its master. Before that, since it was nearing home, it cooperated.

And Essex, the data shows that hardly a 2 to 3 degree difference in the average temperature has been apparent in the past few generations. Given, if it does occur, which I don't believe it will (to the extent the media claims), it would be an exponential growth. But taken with the variable temperature already existing, and the self-correcting climate, it won't make much trouble for a long time. And also, the regressing of coastline? Keep in mind that ice is less dense than liquid water, and so to be accurate on how much the water will rise depends on how much ice is supported above sea level. Icebergs have 90% of their volume below water, and the North Pole is entirely free of terrestrial support. But I quibble. Apologies to anyone who disagrees.

-bilbo

[Elu Ancalime]

Well, Gandalf could go int othe West; for the Bears found peace after the Ring. But then, the Rin gwas destroyed completely.
Also, that would leave the War in the hands of...whomever. Denethor I guess...eww.
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[Essex]

Originally Posted by bilbo_baggins

Icebergs have 90% of their volume below water, and the North Pole is entirely free of terrestrial support.

yes but the glaciers on greenland are falling from land into the sea at a pretty drastic pace! on land, into water = sea level rise. But we digress!

[Tuor in Gondolin]

(More digression):

[QUOTE] Essex, the data shows that hardly a 2 to 3 degree difference in the average temperature has been apparent in the past few generations. Given, if it does occur, which I don't believe it will (to the extent the media claims), it would be an exponential growth. But taken with the variable temperature already existing, and the self-correcting climate, it won't make much trouble for a long time. [QUOTE]

I'm afraid Mister Bilbo_Baggins (of Bagend?) is in denial. The evidence is
already firighteningly clear of melting ice at both antipods, as is clear concerning
high temperatures in the last decade or so. Had this happened during
the Third Age even the Hill of Himnring would be under water (and perhaps
even the vicinity of Bagend)!

[Farael]

Actually, there is one more argument against tossing the ring into the water (and no, it does not include melting layers of ice.. if anyone wants a dissertation on that, PM me as I did a bit of research on it for University last year, I might still have my papers around)

But going back to the ring and the water.... there are Maiar there.
Even if we assume that Ulmo, a valar, won't be tempted because the Ring is a Maiar thing... I can't recall now the name of the Maiar who helped Ulmo in The Silmarillion but I do recall reading that there were more than one. What if one of THEM was tempted? the Ring could sure do that and.... any Maiar with the Ring is another Sauron... ergo, tossing the ring to the sea will be EXACTLY like giving it to Sauron... might as well try something else!

[Anguirel]

I must say, I love the idea of the Ring as a water-pollutant accelerating global warming...

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Good point by Farael . I had sort of thought of that but didn't
mention it partly because I couldn't recall the name, I think it's Osse.
Doesn't Osse more control streams and rivers, not bigger bodies of
water? Which could mean he'd be a factor if the Ring was on fairly
close to the land islands.

[Anguirel]

Osse rages about in the ocean. He it was who Melkor once tempted to cause all sorts of tempestuous trouble. He whipped up many terrible storms before being restrained by his wife Uinen.

I agree; if Osse got the Ring the outlook wouldn't be great...

[bilbo_baggins]

What about throwing the Ring into the chasm below Durin's bridge where Gandalf and the Balrog fell? Not even Sauron could venture there, and the Ring couldn't really levitate. Albeit, the Ring would not have been destroyed, but I believe that losing it there would be more long-lasting, and have greater consequences. Unless of course, Sauron takes up spelunking... . Just a thought...

And Essex, there's nothing new about glaciers falling into oceans. A higher rate than normal of icebergs in the ocean caused the Titanic to sink. And it might suprise you to know that true sea level is not the same world round. The Panama Canal has many water raising and lowering gates, to allow safe passage between the two oceans. And since there is not a heavily populated coast very near Greenland, the effects of an increase in sea level local to Greenland is mediated by the diversity of water levels in the ocean.

And Tuor, I must say that ice melts, ice freezes. As I mentioned with the climate, nothing in the world is static. Even solid ice. Example: ozone layer. The ozone layer fluctuates quite naturally, and fluctuates rather extremely, without being punctured or tearing or whatever you want to call it. And the difference in temperature I mentioned is the total measureable increase known to be caused by man.

bilbo

[Farael]

But wasn't that all but endless hole in which Gandalf and the Balrog fell actually the Balrog's liar? if I'm not mistaken once they reach the bottom, Gandalf follows the Balrog around to find a way out... and then they kill each other.

Besides, would you really risk dropping The Ring THAT close of a Maiar?

Re: Ozone layer, ice and water levels... can we please stop arguing about it? Bilbo_Baggings I really beg to differ with you, and a 5 degree change on the average temperature of an ecosystem can be fatal to many species, yet all this talk is NOT Tolkien-related and thus liable to be deleted by BW/Mods.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Farael

... can we please stop arguing about it?

Yes please do. Carry the conversation on by PM if you must, but not here.

[Elu Ancalime]

What about throwing the Ring into the chasm below Durin's bridge where Gandalf and the Balrog fell? Not even Sauron could venture there, and the Ring couldn't really levitate. Albeit, the Ring would not have been destroyed, but I believe that losing it there would be more long-lasting, and have greater consequences. Unless of course, Sauron takes up spelunking... . Just a thought...

Dont forget 'Nameless Things' that are in the chasms. If the Balrog was down there, who knows what else...and then we might have an incident that we all have wondered,'what would happen if an orc got the Ring?' Gollum was in his mountains, and only 560 years about? did it take it to get out.
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[Tuor in Gondolin]

Yep. I was thinking about those "nameless things
gnawing." As for the Ring only being destroyed
where it was made, it's curious that a simaril could be
destroyed in apparently just about any volcano but not
the Ring.

Was there any stated prohinition from the valar not
keeping the ring but chucking it into a part of the
void seperate from Morgoth? Or putting it on an island
off Aman or in the middle of the encircling sea, not Aman per se.
An indirect way to help out Middle-earth, and perhaps taunting Sauron
and distracting him from Middle-earth conquests?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

As for the Ring only being destroyed where it was made, it's curious that a Silmaril could be destroyed in apparently just about any volcano but not the Ring.

Erm...

No.

Where are you getting this idea from? There's no evidence that ANY earthly force could destroy a Silmaril- except perhaps their maker, Fëanor.

Was there any stated prohibition from the Valar not keeping the ring but chucking it into a part of the Void seperate from Morgoth? Or putting it on an island off Aman or in the middle of the encircling sea, not Aman per se. An indirect way to help out Middle-earth, and perhaps taunting Sauron and distracting him from Middle-earth conquests?

I think that you- and a great many other theorists on this thread, for that matter- are succumbing to the idea that one merely has to prevent Sauron from acquiring the Ring to achieve victory. This is not the case.

The Ring, were Sauron to get it, would definitely assure him victory, since it would enhance his powers back to their full levels. However, Sauron was on the cusp of victory as it was. Aragorn and Gandalf were BARELY able to defeat Sauron's first invasion of the West. It was only a matter of time before Sauron's massively larger armies and deeper resources crushed the West, and Sauron was lord of all Middle-Earth.

Removing the Ring from Middle-Earth doesn't change that. If anything, dumping it somewhere where no one can find it is playing right into Sauron's hands, because it's now kept perfectly safe, and there's still no threat to his total dominion of Middle-Earth.

The main reason Sauron wanted the Ring back was not because someone might destroy it. It is very clearly shown in the book that Sauron didn't think that anyone could even contemplate that. No, he wanted the Ring back so that no one could use it to challenge him. That's what he feared: the use of his own power against him for his defeat. What did Sauron care that this new lord would be just as evil as him and would be possibly worse for Middle-Earth? Not a bit! Sauron was not interested in EVIL ruling Middle-Earth, but in SAURON (who just happened to be evil) ruling Middle-Earth.

Which is why the Ring had to be destroyed. In terms of military power, the West was, at best, fighting a holding action. The only hope they had to defeat Sauron in force was to use the Ring- a choice of action that would have assured victory, perhaps, but would have been a pyrric victory at best, since they may have defeated Sauron, but they would themselves have become evil.

Hiding the Ring would have been completely pointless. The Ring could not then be destroyed, destroying Sauron. Nor could it even be used against Sauron (an evil thing to do, but the only effective way of fighting him with force).

Therefore, it follows that any sort of chucking the Ring into the ocean, or the chasm of Moria, or the Void- no matter how completely irretrievable the Ring would have been after that action- would have been a pointless thing to do.

[Anguirel]

I replied about the Silmaril but the computer ate my response...

I agree with Formendacil, but think Tuor might be thinking of the demise of poor Maedhros. In that case I think it was fairly clear that the gem was not destroyed, "finding its long home", and that sort of thing, unlike its luckless, noble bearer, who would have been burnt to ashes like his father, but more poignantly due to red hair effect, and gone straight to Mandos...

[Raynor]

There's no evidence that ANY earthly force could destroy a Silmaril- except perhaps their maker, Fëanor.

However, in The flight of the noldor, Yavanna fears that Ungoliant might destroy the silmarils:

And thus the fear of Yavanna that the Silmarils would be swallowed up and fall into nothingness did not come to pass

[Anguirel]

Ungoliant, though, was not an earthly force.

That is my case m'lud.

[bilbo_baggins]

Apologies.

Couldn't a Valar destroy the Ring? Obviously the fires of Mount Doom were powerful enough, but since the Ring was made by a Maia, could not one of the Ainur destroy it? Perhaps Aule's forge... This would also allow the idea of a quest, being as no mortal could really go to Valinor. But no evil object could go there either. On the other hand, no one believed that Frodo would make it all the way to Mount Doom except Gandalf, who himself called it a fool's hope.

I agree that Ungoliant was not an earthly force, but losing a Silmaril and destroying a Silmaril are two different things. I think that the Silmarils would have burned Ungoliant inside much like they did to Morgoth.

Really all this is to say that there were no truly viable options to hiding the Ring.

[Raynor]

Ungoliant, though, was not an earthly force.

By what criteria?
Even if she is a maia, she is too bound to her bodily form and her needs (not to mention that in BoLT, she is said to have bred from mist and darkness, after the overthrowing of the lamps). And being a maia (and thus not an "earthly force"?) is not much of a measure of strength, seeing how elves made quick deal of some balrogs, Gothmog included (balrogs which almost finnished off Ungoliant ).

[Anguirel]

Women's beauty is only skin-deep. If men knew what lay beneath, they would shun the sight of women forever.

There's a dollop of that in Ungoliant; a dash of Lilith perhaps; a bit of foul things gnawing at the roots of the earth too; to simplify it all into a mere Maiar spirit seems rather dull.

But whatever she is, she came from outside Arda and she's deeply scary. Balrogs be blasted; before they turned up, Morgoth himself was grovelling beneath her manifold legs.

But we're a little off-topic. Back to the Ring. Yawn.

[Raynor]

But whatever she is, she came from outside Arda and she's deeply scary.

I still am not sure as by what criterion you would define her as not earthly; embodied maiar, the Incarnates (dwarves included) and the Ents have the same status (though they might differ in power); their fea comes from outside Ea and their hroa is made from the same matter. So, an earthly power would be...?

before they turned up, Morgoth himself was grovelling beneath her manifold legs.

Yeah, after he put forth a great deal of his power, fed her with many jewels and after she sucked dry the wells of Varda and the Two Trees.

Back to the Ring.

I agree with the idea that there is no point in hiding the ring; as far as destroying it, I guess only the power of Arien is sufficient enough(even Melkor feared her) and she and Tilion are the only powers that still are directly related to Arda. How to get her involved is an entirely different matter .

[Tuor of Gondolin]

However, if the ring could be kept relatively out of reach,
say moving it to different islands, but its existence
was made known it could foster enormous dissension
and greed among the forces of Sauron, including the corsairs,
and ringless Sauron is in need of such help.

Btw, about

I still am not sure as by what criterion you would define her as not earthly; embodied maiar

Agreed, how is Ungoliant any more or less unearthly than Melian?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

... but its existence was made known it could foster enormous dissension and greed among the forces of Sauron, including the corsairs, and ringless Sauron is in need of such help.

Not to mention among the Free Peoples ...

Seems to me that would be playing into Sauron's digitally-challenged hands.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Yes. But the idea is to keep things stirred up.
Since even in conventional (non-ring possession)
terms Sauron is the strongest force (with his
allies) the best of poor alternatives might well be
to foster dissension in his forces which would also
tend to keep some good guys in play in Middle-earth.
Recall even Gorbag and Shagrat (while in the employ
of the Dark Tower leading their lads
in fighting to the death). And the orc (I forget his
name) trying to get the ring from Merry and Pippin.

While such a strategy of delay fortunately didn't work
for Hitler it proved quite successful for Frederick the
Great.

[Bergil]

If the ring could be hidden, Sauron could be given a false lead as to where it is. the trap that could be set could seriously hurt his forces and possibly kill him. and even if he took over the world how long could he hold it? He can't destroy good any more then gandalf can destroy evil (well, maybe a little more. if we let him stagnate long enough he might develop the technology for mind control, but I think that would take longer then he has before a rebellion), and who if the orcs didn't have a targat for their rage, it might turn on Sauron, some of them might be on our side!

[Morsul the Dark]

well what about thi sauron cant be the only guy who can make rings of power sooo why not make many rings of power set them all loose with various fellowships make Sauron break up his forces and spies making it easier to get to mount doom not really an alternate hiding strdegy but a different approach to destroying the ring.

another idea is to seal the ring in a capsule ina capsule in a capsule(so on for about 10 capsules) each sealed with a different magical incantation attach a few anchors and lets it float to the bottom of the sea.

[Elu Ancalime]

A modern proverb hink that fits well to this thread is that "If its easy its probably Impossible."
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[Tuor of Gondolin]

While this might not be easy, an island(s) should be located,
somewhere in distance from the mainland between
Balar and Numenor, from which to conduct raids and be
a base of resistance, while also sowing dissension among
the bad guys over the ring. (Think England against the nazis
in 1940-1942). If it's known among the Easterlings, et. al.
that the Great and Powerful Sauron is impotent at sea and
in his inability to get his precious back all the better for the good guys,
who could have bases in mountain strongholds, islands, etc.

Hmm. How about putting Gollum on an island with his
precious, the location known only by Cirdan, Gandalf, etc.?
But with an agreement (mutually watching each other) not to land on the
island.